zMAX

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Dave5358: The first conclusion you might reach is that it's not that hard to meet the SN and GF-5 standards. Start with base oil stock and add calcium and magnesium (both necessary for the 'detergent' nature of the oil) and a good dose of phosphorus which comes from ZDDP - an anti-wear additive. If you did nothing else, you should have an API SN and ILSAC GF-5 compliant oil. If a company or its tribologist is not not smart enough to figure it out, they can just look at the PQIA figures - their work is done for them.


That is not how it's done as I have explained in various posts in many different threads.

Quote:
It is no small task but educating the oil consumer on how oils are formulated has been one of my goals here.

Different oil companies do have different formulating philosophies which are highly dependent upon available PI packages and base oils. The final mix, when tested, determines the suitability to meet various specifications. Much R&D and testing from labs to fleets are done to meet specifications.


How would the oil companies have determined their formulations before PQIA came onto the scene?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Dave5358:

Maybe it's better, maybe not. Clearly the oil companies themselves don't agree.


Agree on what?

Quote:
Dave5358: Maybe your favorite oil does not have enough boron to suit you? Just add a bit of Motor Silk to the mix and you could turn your Pennzoil Platinum into Pennzoil Ultra (quite literally). BTW, boron is an anti-friciton additive - makes the oil slippery.


Sorry, but not correct either.

How would the non-lubricant engineer be able to determine how much Boron or Mos2, or XXX to add, that would not conflict with chemical components in the formulated oil?

From the Question of the Day thread:

Quote:
Depending on the synthesis and subsequent functionalization, borates (boron compounds) can be considered as Anti-Wear Additives, extreme pressure additives (EP), friction modifiers, and oxidation inhibitors, and rust inhibitors, and pH modifiers to control acidity.

Oxidation inhibitors, rust inhibitors, and alkilinity agents would fall under the classification of "Surfactants."

So the two additional functions would be Friction Modifcation and Surfactant.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
or VW specify an MoS2 additive for its engines.

Why do you keep perpetuating this myth? VW has not recommended MoS2 for any engine since the air cooled days.

The truth is most properly maintained engines will outlive their bodies or other mechanical parts running perfectly well with nothing but engine oil in the sump.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
or VW specify an MoS2 additive for its engines.

Why do you keep perpetuating this myth?

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: dave5358

A tireless choir on this forum says that additives do nothing, short of taking your money. Given the small amount of additive involved, it's most unlikely that they would change the specs of the underlying oil, whether the additives do nothing or otherwise.

It's no small task in the minds of those doing it. I noticed you addressed this question to Molakule. That's rather like asking a restaurant or movie critic if his job is important. You are likely to hear that it is not only important but it is also so complicated that you could not possibly understand the questions, much less understand the answers.

Study the analysis done by Petroleum Quality Institute of America on a variety of popular synthetic oils. First note that every oil in this table meets API SN and ILSAC GF-5. [BTW, if you don't want a synthetic, look around the PQIA site - they test just about everything oily.)

The first conclusion you might reach is that it's not that hard to meet the SN and GF-5 standards. Start with base oil stock and add calcium and magnesium (both necessary for the 'detergent' nature of the oil) and a good dose of phosphorus which comes from ZDDP - an anti-wear additive. If you did nothing else, you should have an API SN and ILSAC GF-5 compliant oil. If a company or its tribologist is not not smart enough to figure it out, they can just look at the PQIA figures - their work is done for them.

Pennzoil Platinum uses this formula (plus a small dose of molybdenum) as do several other oil companies (with or without the molybdenum). Virtually everything else in the mix is just a trace element or impurity.

Granted, some of the oils tested by PQIA are different - really imaginative. Castrol Edge and Schaeffer's Supreme are examples, but then Castrol has always marched to a slightly different drummer. Most motor oils are just copies of each other (very much like most consumer products). And, they're all API SN and ILSAC GF-5 compliant!

How can a motor oil anticipate all those circumstances and still perform as claimed?

There is probably no unique or secret knowledge possessed exclusively by a large oil company or an additive maker. But that does not mean that 'big oil' uses all they know or makes the best product possible. Oil companies are in business to make money (and they are very good at that). If they make a decent product along the way, that's great, but that is not the business they are in. Else, why would auto makers have to specify Top Tier gasoline or the use of Techron or VW specify an MoS2 additive for its engines.

As for perform as claimed that's rather subjective. Many additives will simply boost the oil's content of one or more ingredients - moly or titanium or ZDDP or boron. Maybe it's better, maybe not. Clearly the oil companies themselves don't agree. Maybe your favorite oil does not have enough boron to suit you? Just add a bit of Motor Silk to the mix and you could turn your Pennzoil Platinum into Pennzoil Ultra (quite literally). BTW, boron is an anti-friciton additive - makes the oil slippery.

Some additive makers have more credibility than others... the same might be said for oil companies. Do you really want to buy a motor oil marketed by Lucas? How about a Lucas additive? And, in more than one case, e.g. Quaker State, the oil company and the additive maker are the same company. Do you trust them more now that you know this?


While reading this, I thought I must have accidentally clicked on a post in the humor forum.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
or VW specify an MoS2 additive for its engines.

Why do you keep perpetuating this myth?

That sure looks like old stuff. Please provide the current vag part number and show where any recent vag manuals recommend it.

 

[Trav]

Please provide a current VW part number i want to buy some for the manual transmission in my beetle. It must be available right?

You have been posting this on other internet forums with the same pictures and same disproved fighter plane stories. When faced with the official RR Merlin service manual you claimed it must have been recommended by telephone or some such nonsense. LOL

Originally Posted By: dave5358
MoS2 for automotive use has been around a long time - it is hardly a 'new product' or anything remotely like that. One spectacular use of MoS2 from the laste 1930's was the use by Rolls-Royce in their Merlin water-cooled V-12 aircraft engines. It permitted pilots to land under power even after losing their oil supply - useful when being shot at. Starting in the 1960's, Volkswagen of America prescribed and sold Molykote as a way to reduce extreme engine temperatures and protect oil in their air-cooled engines.


Nuff said i think.

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/3787058-post14.html

 

[demarpaint]

I thought this was a Zmax thread?

 

[JHZR2]

You should know better

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
You should know better

Lets see what other products get dragged in...........

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
or VW specify an MoS2 additive for its engines.

Why do you keep perpetuating this myth?

That sure looks like old stuff. Please provide the current vag part number and show where any recent vag manuals recommend it.

Purchased on 5/17/2014.

X-ray vision? Can you leap tall buildings in a single bound? Better jump right in... Molakule and Trav really need some support from the neutral moderator.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trav
When faced with the official RR Merlin service manual you claimed it must have been recommended by telephone or some such nonsense.

Do you mean the 1938 service manual, with which you were trying to prove what happened in 1940? You're right: LOL

 

[Trav]

Whats the part #? I gave you the links to the FSM go look at one from the 1940's they are in there and also no mention of MoS2.
Give it up.

 

[Koz1]

Im am trying zMAX in an almost new 2014 Outlander AWD.
Ill be tracking with fuelly.
Cheers.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Whats the part #?

Trav:

I don't see a part number on the tubes. There is a number stamped into the plastic, along the sealing edge VWGO521 DC4613. Maybe that's a part number or manufacturing code. In years past, I recall the part number was always on a label on the outer box, which held maybe 10-12 tubes. The boxes were white, maybe 1.5" high x 6" x 8". I don't ever remember seeing a part number on the individual tubes.

But realistically, there is no amount of information or part numbers or evidence I could provide which would satisfy you. In your fantasy re-write bubble, you've decided that this part doesn't exist or it's a hoax or it's a myth. Maybe someone is out there printing VW's name on parts just for the heck of it. Or, maybe VW doesn't even exist. If you can re-write history to match your conclusions, why not reality? You're in good company in this forum.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

That sure looks like old stuff. Please provide the current vag part number and show where any recent vag manuals recommend it.

Purchased on 5/17/2014.

X-ray vision? Can you leap tall buildings in a single bound? Better jump right in... Molakule and Trav really need some support from the neutral moderator.


Selective memory loss? Instead of doing the synlube shuffle, provide the part number as asked. I've looked at Volkswagen of America, Volkswagen itself, and various places you can buy Volkswagen parts and approved oil, And have found nothing.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: dave5358

...Purchased on 5/17/2014...



From where did you purchase this? Ebay or a VW dealer?

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: dave5358

...Purchased on 5/17/2014...

From where did you purchase this? Ebay or a VW dealer?

Molakule:

I'm still waiting to hear of your publications or research in the area of motor oils or additives or anything. Well, other than your 'contributions' to BITOG. I recall you trashing the reputations of Dr Richard Shalvoy and Maurice LePera, whose conclusions on Zmax were well documented and their methodology was quite public. Yet, in the entire Zmax thread, you offered exactly zero in the way of support for your position. So how about it? Tell us what you've published lately (or ever).

Oh yes, it was purchased from a VW dealer.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
How would the oil companies have determined their formulations before PQIA came onto the scene?

Maybe send a sample to Blackstone for an analysis? That's what the PQIA folks do. Who knows, maybe they can perform their own oil analysis?

 

[Trav]

I don't rewrite anything. Fact is that product was or is possibly still sold in south America and Mexico because Mexico was the last place that manufactured the original air cooled beetle.
I don't doubt a US dealer may be able to get some NOS for this application.

With the last model year being 2004 (manufactured 03) for the air cooled Beetle it seems more than possible that 10 years later they would still sell this product in those markets for these engines.
However VW does not recommended the product today for any of their water cooled engines including the water boxers that were used in the vans till 92.

If it was the be all and end all as you make it out to be why not? Because it turns the oil black? That kite wont fly, after all it didn't prevent them from recommending it for the Bug.
They don't seemed bothered by diesel engines turning their oil black.

You said it yourself in that Subaru thread that it was for the air cooled engines, whats the problem, no one is arguing that.
Everything i posted is factual and verifiable (RR FSM is a factual as i can find) if i posted something erroneous please point it out with some documentation to show it is incorrect.

You are doing more to discredit the product than promote it, any possible real benefits if there are any are being obscured by myths, stories and non existent manufacturers recommendations.