Zinc level = ZDDP Level?

[FCD]

i was browsing a few datasheets of oils to see if i could find a good oil to use for my Capri that i can get locally for cheap, i found Repsol Elite Super which apparently has 1150ppm of Zinc, but phosphororus is not mentioned anywhere, does this mean that the zddp could be lower than 1150 due to the possibility of there being less phosphorous? so for example if it has 1150 of zinc and 800 of phos does this mean that the zddp would be rated at 800ppm? since the zinc needs phosphorous to work

 

[RooflessVW]

Why are you looking further than the VR1 in your signature? Why are you stuck on ZDDP? It is not the only antiwear additive that exists. Have you had a lube related failure? Has anyone had a lube related failure cause by a lack of ZDDP?

Unless you have a big-[censored] fast ramp flat tappet cam made from a cheap blank I wouldn't be too concerned. Anyway, at that point it is more of a cam problem than a lube problem.

 

[FCD]

i know, i shouln't worry about it that much, but i'm looking at other oils because for example this oil is about 10 Euros cheaper than VR1 for 5L, how does this look like?
SAE grade 20W50
Density at 15ºC g/ml ASTM D 4052 0.889
Viscosity at 100ºC cSt ASTM D 445 18
Viscosity at 40ºC cSt ASTM D 445 172
Viscosity at -15ºC cP ASTM D 5293 9,500 max
Viscosity index - ASTM D 2270 120 min
Flash point, open cup ºC ASTM D 92 210 min
Pour point ºC ASTM D 97 -27
TBN mg KOH/g ASTM D 2896 7
Sulphated Ash % weight ASTM D 874 1
Shear Stability Bosch Injector:
Viscosity after shear test, 100ºC cSt ASTM D 3945 12.5
Noack Volatility, 1 hour at 250ºC % weight DIN 51581 13 max

 

[SR5]

FCD,

Zinc & Phos track together but are not equal.
For example Kendall GT-1 has 850 ppm Zn and 770 ppm Phos.
Increase ZDDP and they both go up.

The Repsol looks better than the HX3 you are using now, but not as good as the Valvoline VR-1 which is an excellent oil.

To be honest, 800 ppm Zn is probably all you need running a standard cam that's well bedded in.

However, if you want the best for your car then I vote for the VR-1. Otherwise almost any 20W-50 should do. Or that GTX 15W-50 from before.

If I win lotto, I'll post you some HPR 30.

 

[FCD]

I know VR1 is a better oil, but since this Repsol oil is 23 Euro compared to VR1 which is 33, it's hard not to consider it, i can get it from a shop that is in walking distance of my house too, i will probably still use VR1 for my next oil change, then top it off with the HX3 I have left and the use this cheap Repsol oil top top the oil off from then on

 

[SR5]

The VR1 has a lot higher TBN (12) than the Repsol (7), so it's sort of a false economy with the Repsol, as you can have a much longer OCI with the VR1.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I know VR1 is a better oil, but since this Repsol oil is 23 Euro compared to VR1 which is 33, it's hard not to consider it, i can get it from a shop that is in walking distance of my house too, i will probably still use VR1 for my next oil change, then top it off with the HX3 I have left and the use this cheap Repsol oil top top the oil off from then on


At this price differentials ,it makes perfect sense to top off with Repsol, with initial fill being Repsol or VR1.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
i know, i shouln't worry about it that much, but i'm looking at other oils because for example this oil is about 10 Euros cheaper than VR1 for 5L, how does this look like?
SAE grade 20W50
Density at 15ºC g/ml ASTM D 4052 0.889
Viscosity at 100ºC cSt ASTM D 445 18
Viscosity at 40ºC cSt ASTM D 445 172
Viscosity at -15ºC cP ASTM D 5293 9,500 max
Viscosity index - ASTM D 2270 120 min
Flash point, open cup ºC ASTM D 92 210 min
Pour point ºC ASTM D 97 -27
TBN mg KOH/g ASTM D 2896 7
Sulphated Ash % weight ASTM D 874 1
Shear Stability Bosch Injector:
Viscosity after shear test, 100ºC cSt ASTM D 3945 12.5
Noack Volatility, 1 hour at 250ºC % weight DIN 51581 13 max


Not a very informative data sheet; a lot of notations just showing that it meets minimum specs.
TBN of 7 is very mediocre.
Shear stability made my eyes pop: this 50-weight shears to a 30 weight.

I'd pay the extra money for the VR1.

 

[FCD]

I am doing 1 year oil changes, but yeah i guess VR1 is better, shame we don't have VR1 Synthetic here, i was looking at M1 5W50 but i fear it might burn off very quickly

 

[ShotGun429]

M1 5W50 but i fear it might burn off very quickly) Fear not, You will be fine.

 

[FCD]

Well i'm pretty sure that i need to change my valve seals, the engine smokes on startup and when i let off the throttle after revving the engine up, since it smokes when cold i fear that it might burn more oil when cold? although i have heard oil viscosity doesn't tend to have a very big effect on valve seals

 

[mazdamonky]

Do you guys have any HDEO oils available such as Chevron Delo or Rotella T? They have high zinc levels. They aren't exactly available in a 50 weight, but I would imagine a 5w40 would probably work fine.

 

[FCD]

No we don't have those oils, i'd preferrably use a XXw50 to keep oil consumption down

 

[Joe90_guy]

This may have already be answered but here goes...

Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate (ZDDP) is an organic chemical used in engine oils. Roughly an oil will contain about 1% (or 10,000 ppm) of ZDDP.

You make ZDDP from Alcohol, Phosphorus Pentasulphide (P2S5) and Zinc Oxide. As such it contains Carbon, Hydrogen, Sulphur, Phosphorus and Zinc (but not Oxygen as this is expelled as water). The ratio of Phosphorus to Sulphur is always the same. The ratio of Zinc to Phosphorus is nearly always the same but does depend on how far you over-base the ZDDP.

Typically, 1% of ZDDP in oil will give you about 950 ppm of Phosphorus and about 1050 ppm of Zinc.

Oil formulators will often refer to ZDDP as 'Zinc' but only as a convenient form of shorthand.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I am doing 1 year oil changes, but yeah i guess VR1 is better, shame we don't have VR1 Synthetic here, i was looking at M1 5W50 but i fear it might burn off very quickly


Why? It is still a 50-weight (which IMO is antiquated unless you're actually racing). Don't be frightened by the 5w in front, that is no big deal with modern lubricants. M1 0w40 would be superb in your application, if it is available and affordable.


Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Oil formulators will often refer to ZDDP as 'Zinc' but only as a convenient form of shorthand.


Which is doubly funny, since its my understanding that the phosphorous is the more critical component for the actual sacrificial anti-wear process, though zinc does more than just provide a way to bind the phosphorus. The whole way ZDDP works is fascinating.

 

[BrocLuno]

So pull the heads off, get a premium 4 or 5 angle valve job with minor back cut on the intakes to aid in low lift flow. You'll pick up 10 HP over what you have now, it'll run better, and it'll get new valve seals. Then run any good semi-syn HDEO you can get at a good price and stop chasing oils

 

[FCD]

haha i'm not taking off the heads to change the valve seals i'm doing the job with the heads on the engine...
By the way yes i can get M1 0W40 Here but it costs between 40 and 60 Euros for 5 Litres which is a lot, and as i already said i use a 20w50 mainly to reduce oil consumption, my haynes manual and ford owner manuals both say to use anything you want between 10w-30 to a 20w50, any particular reasons to use M1 0W40? I Know it gets a good rep but if i'm gonna use M1 it'll be that 5W50 or preferrably the 15w50 but the only place i can get it here locally sells it for the modest price of 70 Euro or 80 Dollars for a 5 Liter jug..., although i can get it online for 27 Euro for a 4 Liter jug

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate (ZDDP) is an organic chemical used in engine oils. Roughly an oil will contain about 1% (or 10,000 ppm) of ZDDP.


its actually near .1% or 1000PPM

10000ppm would be a corrosive level.

Modern Automobile PCMO oils have 600-800ppm

HDEO oils and 40wt or thicker can have upto 1200ppm.

 

[FCD]

yeah 10.0000 ppm is impossible the highest i know is around 2500-3000 ppm

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate (ZDDP) is an organic chemical used in engine oils. Roughly an oil will contain about 1% (or 10,000 ppm) of ZDDP.


its actually near .1% or 1000PPM

10000ppm would be a corrosive level.

Modern Automobile PCMO oils have 600-800ppm

HDEO oils and 40wt or thicker can have upto 1200ppm.



Ah...I clearly haven't made myself clear...

There is 1% (10,000 ppm) of ZDDP in oil. This imparts about 0.095 % (950 ppm) of neat PHOSPHORUS in the oil because there's about 9.5% Phosphorus in ZDDP.

You can't say for sure exactly how much Phosphorus 1% of ZDDP will impart because the percentage of P in the ZDDP will vary with the length of the alkyl chains tagged on to the ZDDP molecule (the heavier the alkyl chains, the lower the percentage of P in the ZDDP).

BTW, I've always been a bit skeptical about the corrosivity of high amounts of ZDDP in oil. The specs always used to constrain how much ZDDP folks like me could put in oil but I would have happily lobbed 5% ZDDP into an oil if I thought it could do some good.