ZDDP and Moly assassination of Cat converter?

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Oils like Redline and Shaeffer's still have large amounts of ZDDP and Moly. My motor still runs Flat tappets, so I opted to use Redline.

"To prevent excess wear, traditional motor oil included a generous dose of antiwear additives, primarily zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). "The chemistry is such that the additive is a combination of zinc and phosphorous," says Rockett Racing Fuel's TimWusz." - Hot Rod Magazine

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

In this same article, they talk about the decrease in Moly and ZDDP to meet emissions standards.

"Although great for keeping a flat tappet alive, as an engine ages and develops blow-by, some of the additives flow out the exhaust where they can degrade oxygen sensor and catalytic converter performance.Faced with ever more stringent emissions standards and the governmental mandate for extended emissions-control- system warranties, the OEMs got together with the motor oil makers and decided to reduce the amount of ZDDP in street-legal, gasoline-engine motor oils. After all, theyweren't needed with modern roller lifters and overhead-cam followers.The reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradual process, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP content to such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate protection for older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles" - Hot Rod Magazine.

I'm concerned with the possibility of buying a new converter in my near future due to Redline's increased ZDDP and Moly. Do any of you have long-term experience with ZDDP dense oils? How did your emissions and cat converter fare? Can I continue to use Redline without having an annual cat replacement?
 
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron

I'm concerned with the possibility of buying a new converter in my near future due to Redline's increased ZDDP and Moly. Do any of you have long-term experience with ZDDP dense oils? How did your emissions and cat converter fare? Can I continue to use Redline without having an annual cat replacement?


Yes. All of us who drove cars in the late 70s and 80s ;-)


Seriously, here's my opinion on the whole mess: The very latest catalysts (and the OBD-II systems that monitor how well they are working) are a lot more precise than the old days, and probably are more sensitive to ZDDP than in the past. However you are not likely to suffer enough catalyst degradation due to ZDDP to cause you to replace the catalyst in less than 200k miles unless you have a serious oil burner on your hands.

The automakers are thinking of everything from a regulatory point of view: allowing for all of the most ill-maintained cars in the fleet, can they reasonably guarantee the EPA that their cars will stay "clean" (and that their OBD-II systems will function well enough to set an error if the car gets dirty) over the life of the vehicle? That's not the question YOU as an individual face. If you're not going to neglect your car and let it become an oil-burning heap, you're not in the group the manufacturer has to err towards. Add a PCV trap to keep even more oil out of the intake, change your oil once in a while to prevent the engine from wearing prematurely, and run as much ZDDP as you want- you'll get tired of the car or it will fall apart around the catcon long before the catcon dies due to zinc/phosphorous poisoning.
 
Really, the ZDDP change didn't happen until 2004, so plenty of experience exists. On an individual basis, you're unlikely to have a problem. There is probably more of a correlation of how much oil you burn than how much additive is in the oil.

This change came about because auto manufacturers wanted it for warranty concerns.
 
It's a '92 B-series Miata motor. I'm convinced it won't be a problem now. Thanks everyone!
 
It doesn't happen. I have run redline for about 15 years and never had a cat fail yet.

Only car I ever had a cat fail on was an 03 saturn ion (running m1 as I recall but failure was not related to oil in any way). Coil pack went bad during a long trip so it ran very poorly for those hwy miles. That one trip in poor tune was enough to kill the cat. So state of tune has more to do with it than oil additives in my experience.
 
I see bad converters every day on the Nissans we service. And I can gurantee that none of these cars have used anything better than whatever bulk oil is available at the quick lube, if they even change the oil at all. Fact is most people don't maintain their vehciles. Comb of lack of information, lazieness, or just don't careness. Whatever the reason is.

I doubt you would ever have a cat fail due to your redline oil.
 
Do you really think most people today don't maintain their cars? Something as basic as an oil change can't be too far beyond the average person's maintenance schedule. I would assume the economic times have nearly forced people to consider car care seriously. Doesn't everyone know bad oil kills cars? Doesn't everyone understand the cost of a destroyed motor? I have met no one that doesn't at least perform oil changes on their car before 10k. All I've heard are the internet stories.
 
Almost no-one I know check their oil between OC. NO ONE. Excuse #1, "Cars today dont burn oil" #2, "The car is new , why would I check the oil?!"
 
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
Do you really think most people today don't maintain their cars?


I think most people haven't maintained their cars in decades. Back in the 70s I'd see people checking their tires and oil at highway rest areas and filling stations. Today? NEVER. My simple theory is that most people are mechanical idiots. People that read forums like this one and actually take care of equipment are the tiny minority.
 
That's rediculous. If you're correct, I'm sorrily disappointed at those who neglect their vehicles. It's just bad economics to mistreat such an expensive machine. Not only does it cost the first owner: A. Repairs for a worn drivetrain, or B. replacement cars, it plagues the following owners with problems.
 
The only way ZDDP is going to kill your cat is if you have a major oil burner as was mentioned earlier. If that is the case you have a bigger problem than the bad cat to worry about.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
That's rediculous. If you're correct, I'm sorrily disappointed at those who neglect their vehicles. It's just bad economics to mistreat such an expensive machine. Not only does it cost the first owner: A. Repairs for a worn drivetrain, or B. replacement cars, it plagues the following owners with problems.
I've worked with many mechanical engineers that never lift their hood. If I never checked my wifes tires and oil and changed her oil - it would never get done. You've got car guys&gals then you have the other 80% of the population. I feel when cars wre MORE unreliable and required yearly tuneups and 3k maintenance and grease jobs the vehicles saw more attention; pump jockeys that lifted your hood during a fill-up stop helped too - they have all but disappeared.
 
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum


Yes. All of us who drove cars in the late 70s and 80s ;-)


Seriously, here's my opinion on the whole mess: The very latest catalysts (and the OBD-II systems that monitor how well they are working) are a lot more precise than the old days, and probably are more sensitive to ZDDP than in the past. However you are not likely to suffer enough catalyst degradation due to ZDDP to cause you to replace the catalyst in less than 200k miles unless you have a serious oil burner on your hands.


Or 15+ years.


Quote:

The automakers are thinking of everything from a regulatory point of view: allowing for all of the most ill-maintained cars in the fleet, can they reasonably guarantee the EPA that their cars will stay "clean" (and that their OBD-II systems will function well enough to set an error if the car gets dirty) over the life of the vehicle? That's not the question YOU as an individual face. If you're not going to neglect your car and let it become an oil-burning heap, you're not in the group the manufacturer has to err towards. Add a PCV trap to keep even more oil out of the intake, change your oil once in a while to prevent the engine from wearing prematurely, and run as much ZDDP as you want- you'll get tired of the car or it will fall apart around the catcon long before the catcon dies due to zinc/phosphorous poisoning.


Good take. It's a "policy" type thing. They're putting more burden on the OEM ..and the OEM is hedging their bets with appropriate countermeasures. The OEM is "remote viewing" into the future that's beyond its control and is sweeping out all the corners it can to meet those far reaching demands.

Now the future may be different, but for right now I don't see where anything has changed for us. That is, we didn't worry about them before ...why are we supposed to worry about them now (as in "over dosing" to the old levels - it wasn't over dosing then)? The OEM is the one seeking the benefit here in extending their OEM emissions integrity ..which, besides an O2 sensor change every once and a while, is a very long time for most of us.
 
To my knowledge, there is no problem with moly and converter catalysts, as there is with ZDDP. And the only mention of moly in the article linked from the OP is a recommendation to use moly grease on camshaft lobes.
 
Originally Posted By: daman
How many cats have you heard of dieing back when API was SL/CI? not many here,run the oil you'll be fine!


How about an SG/CD rated oil?
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I think the viscous-coupled Engine Fan is the most likely cat killer, IMO.


And...

Da-dum!

He's here all week, folks! LOL
 
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