WWII

[andrewg]

WW2 was terrible....we did HORRIBLE things to gain a victory. Probably most of those things were necessary.

The thing that sometimes surprises me though is the animosity still evidenced by many of my fellow countryman toward the Japanese and the German people. It was a LONG time ago. We won. Forgive and let it go.

More to my point...Japan and Germany PAID DEARLY for the war. They suffered FAR, FAR, more than we Americans did during that period.

I know most people don't care about how many Japanese and Germans died back then...but the numbers are quite horrific.

Japanese civilian deaths: 672,000
Japanese military deaths: 1.3 million
That was 4% of the population that died.

German civilian deaths: 780,000
German military deaths: 3.5 million
10% of total population.

I realize that the both of those nations military killed more than they themselves
were killed. But...it's primarily the civilian deaths on all sides that are so sad.

In comparison....here are some rounded American WW2 statistical figures.

America civilian deaths: 10,000 - 18,000
American military deaths: 405,000
0.32% of population.

The Russians lost about 7 million civilians and the British lost 93,000.

The Chinese? Many millions more civilians.

The total estimated civilian deaths world wide in all of WW2: 45,000,000

45 MILLION people!!!...and these were CIVILIANS!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Al
We were running out of money. And Japan would have fought to the death. A demo bomb wouldn't have convinced themof anything. And we only had 2. And the plotinium bomb could have failed. It was complex. The uranium bomb wasn't tested. Invasion would have cost at least 1/4 million Allied troops....no thank you
Good Summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall


And even AFTER the second bomb, it was a close call! Then hard-liners nearly prevented the Emperor's surrender announcement from being broadcast.

 

[andyd]

Originally Posted By: dja4260
Both bombs exhausted our supply of materials for nuclear weapons. Good thing they surrendered.
Yah, good thing for them. The US still had plenty of conventional weapons. They could have dropped 2 loads a day using Okinawa and Iwo Jima air strips with 500 B29s a sortie.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted By: dja4260
Both bombs exhausted our supply of materials for nuclear weapons. Good thing they surrendered.


Actually, the production line was just getting started; from what I remember, the third bomb was ready to drop, with another coming off the line every few weeks after. Truman prohibited any more nuclear attacks without his explicit orders, then the Japanese surrendered.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
After WWII the USA used the Battleship Nevada in atomic bomb testing in the Pacific (along with other ships). They painted the battleship a bright orange color and tried to drop an atomic bomb on it. They missed by some incredible distance. I think it was something like 1000 yards. And remember, these were top of the line pilots and flight crews in these bombers.


From what I remember, the best British crews in Europe could consistently get bombs within a hundred yards of the target markers by the end of the war. The problem seemed to be getting the target markers within a hundred yards of the target

.

But, yes, they still had to make multiple attacks to hit the Tirpitz battleship, even though it was stationary.

 

[Mystic]

I think the world needs to get past the fact that two nuclear bombs were used by the USA to end WWII. It was terrible that it was necessary to do that but it probably actually saved millions of lives. And I get extremely tired of all of the condemnation of the USA. The USA was trying to stay out of the war and Americans started to work on nuclear weapons after the warnings of Dr. Albert Einstein (to the president) that the Germans might be able to develop such a weapon.

I think the USA treated Japan and Germany far better as defeated countries than they would have treated us if we had been defeated. Germany and Japan are both doing pretty well today.

I don't know about your 7 million Russian civilian deaths figure. According to what I have heard some 25 million Russians died in WWII, including 8 million soldiers and the rest civilians.

We need to remember WWII (those who forget history are bound to repeat history) and it is hard in the USA for young people to find out about history with the collapse of the educational system and the hatred of some far left educators towards the USA.

Before you attack me let me explain. I know some people who have a grandson with high function autism. They educate him online because he can get kind of hyper from time to time and he probably would have problems in a classroom with other students. Recently the grandmother told me she did not understand why there was so little American history education. It was all history of other countries as if the USA did not even exist. Now, the grandmother is VERY liberal, will not let her husband watch Fox News, votes Democratic, watches NBC News, and will definitely vote for Hillary Clinton for president, email scandal or no email scandal. So I was surprised by what she said and I figured it must be the truth coming from her. I travel with these people a lot. We go to baseball games together, to museums, etc.

So if she says something like that I am wondering just how bad it is in American schools.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


My guess would be the few remaining survivors of the Rape Of Nanking, and all of those from the surrounding areas.
The Nippon 'army' rivaled, and may have even surpassed, the heartless, cold, cruel, inhumanity of the Nazis in what they did to the people of that city.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I think the world needs to get past the fact that two nuclear bombs were used by the USA to end WWII. It was terrible that it was necessary to do that but it probably actually saved millions of lives. And I get extremely tired of all of the condemnation of the USA. The USA was trying to stay out of the war and Americans started to work on nuclear weapons after the warnings of Dr. Albert Einstein (to the president) that the Germans might be able to develop such a weapon.

I think the USA treated Japan and Germany far better as defeated countries than they would have treated us if we had been defeated. Germany and Japan are both doing pretty well today.



I could not agree more with your post, up to THIS point.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
WW2 was terrible....we did HORRIBLE things to gain a victory. Probably most of those things were necessary.

The thing that sometimes surprises me though is the animosity still evidenced by many of my fellow countryman toward the Japanese and the German people. It was a LONG time ago. We won. Forgive and let it go.

More to my point...Japan and Germany PAID DEARLY for the war. They suffered FAR, FAR, more than we Americans did during that period.


Yes, they did pay "dearly" for that war, but they BOTH also committed MANY MANY times more DIRECT, INTENTIONAL, PURPOSEFUL, PAINFUL, INHUMANE ATROSITIES against unarmed CIVILIANS than we ever could have done.

So maybe there IS some sort of 'justice' to their "losses".

Also, SOME things can NEVER be "forgiven" (you would understand this IF it was YOU who were on the receiving end of a pre-meditated, meticulously planned, organized, genocide).

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Can anyone explain to me why Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the recipients of the atom bombs?


Kokura was the primary target, but that got changed to Nagasaki due to poor visibility over Kokura

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Why not Tokyo?


Already firebombed effectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
The Operation Meetinghouse air raid of 9–10 March 1945 was later estimated to be the single most destructive bombing raid in history. 334 B-29s took off to raid with 279 of them dropping 1,665 tons of bombs on Tokyo. The bombs were mostly the 500-pound (230 kg) E-46 cluster bomb which released 38 napalm-carrying M-69 incendiary bomblets at an altitude of 2,000–2,500 ft (610–760 m). The M-69s punched through thin roofing material or landed on the ground; in either case they ignited 3–5 seconds later, throwing out a jet of flaming napalm globs. A lesser number of M-47 incendiaries was also dropped: the M-47 was a 100-pound (45 kg) jelled-gasoline and white phosphorus bomb which ignited upon impact. In the first two hours of the raid, 226 of the attacking aircraft unloaded their bombs to overwhelm the city's fire defenses. The first B-29s to arrive dropped bombs in a large X pattern centered in Tokyo's densely populated working class district near the docks in both Koto and Chuo city wards on the water; later aircraft simply aimed near this flaming X. Fourteen B-29s were lost. The individual fires caused by the bombs joined to create a general conflagration, which would have been classified as a firestorm but for prevailing winds gusting at 17 to 28 mph (27 to 45 km/h). Approximately 15.8 square miles (4,090 ha) of the city was destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died.

 

[Mystic]

Originally Posted By: emg
Originally Posted By: Mystic
After WWII the USA used the Battleship Nevada in atomic bomb testing in the Pacific (along with other ships). They painted the battleship a bright orange color and tried to drop an atomic bomb on it. They missed by some incredible distance. I think it was something like 1000 yards. And remember, these were top of the line pilots and flight crews in these bombers.


From what I remember, the best British crews in Europe could consistently get bombs within a hundred yards of the target markers by the end of the war. The problem seemed to be getting the target markers within a hundred yards of the target

.

But, yes, they still had to make multiple attacks to hit the Tirpitz battleship, even though it was stationary.




This was the aiming accuracy of top flight crews using nuclear bombs in Operation Crossroads:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crossroads

Notice that the Nevada is painted a bright red-orange color to stand out. The nuclear bomb was supposed to be dropped right over the battleship but I think in the article they say it missed by 710 yards or so. In another test they missed the target by about 650 yards. They did not have laser guided bombs and cruise missiles back in those days.

The British were often flying at night with their bombers and the Americans were flying precision bombing missions in the daytime. The USA had a secret bomb sight which made bombing more accurate.

Since the British were flying many, many night missions and Americans flying in the daytime during WWII it would have been a little tough to obtain accuracy of under 100 yards. They did not have infrared night vision equipment and the aircraft that dropped the flares were guided in by radio signals (I think those aircraft were called Pathfinders).

Accuracy definitely was not like today. Sometimes the bombs were on target and sometimes the bombs were way off target.

Many, many bombs had to be dropped to guarantee the destruction of targets.

Even in the Vietnam War they still were dropping many, many bombs. Today, a laser guided bomb might take out a bridge that in WWII would have required tens or even hundreds of bombs to be dropped.

Hitting a moving warship with bombs dropped by a high level bomber was almost impossible. The Germans did develop radio guided bombs that destroyed the Italian Battleship Roma.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
WW2 was terrible....we did HORRIBLE things to gain a victory. Probably most of those things were necessary.

The thing that sometimes surprises me though is the animosity still evidenced by many of my fellow countryman toward the Japanese and the German people. It was a LONG time ago. We won. Forgive and let it go.

More to my point...Japan and Germany PAID DEARLY for the war. They suffered FAR, FAR, more than we Americans did during that period.


Yes, they did pay "dearly" for that war, but they BOTH also committed MANY MANY times more DIRECT, INTENTIONAL, PURPOSEFUL, PAINFUL, INHUMANE ATROSITIES against unarmed CIVILIANS than we ever could have done.

So maybe there IS some sort of 'justice' to their "losses".

Also, SOME things can NEVER be "forgiven" (you would understand this IF it was YOU who were on the receiving end of a pre-meditated, meticulously planned, organized, genocide).

All things CAN be forgiven....it's just not within the capability of some folks I guess. Don't get me wrong...I'm not a religious type that thinks forgiveness is for some sort of salvation. To be blunt...I'm an atheist.

The Japanese and German military did these things you can't forgive. Yes, some of them returned to civilian life that didn't perish in combat. But I really don't think an average Wehrmacht soldier or a similar counterpart in the Japanese army is guilty of "direct, intentional, purposeful, painful, inhuman atrosities"....do you? Really?

I won't accept that it was a decent thing to do in carpet bombing civilians in either country. Tens of thousands of people died that had ZERO to do with what happened. People often justify killing men, women, and children by saying things like they deserved it or that since they were responsible for the leadership of Japan/Germany...that they should "pay" for placing them in power. Most of that is hogwash and a gross exaggeration.

Look....I'm very glad that we defeated those nations. The world, although pretty sad right now, is a better place for that victory. But I will not sit down with any other fellow human being and say that we absolutely NEEDED to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to accomplish that victory. I just won't agree with it no matter how it's diced. Certainly some of the horrible things we did was necessary...but I'm not so certain that was.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


My guess would be the few remaining survivors of the Rape Of Nanking, and all of those from the surrounding areas.
The Nippon 'army' rivaled, and may have even surpassed, the heartless, cold, cruel, inhumanity of the Nazis in what they did to the people of that city.

As stated before...you really need to realize that almost all nations on this earth have and will continue to commit horrible acts of mass killings against other nations/peoples.
It surprises me that you give no mention of such acts that the Chinese communists have committed that are equal in inhuman behavior.
Certainly you must admit that the Japanese people have PROVEN themselves a better ally and friend of the free world since 1945 than the Chinese EVER have?

I just find it odd that you still condemn the Japanese 70 plus years later (when most of them that were even alive then are dead as a doornail)....yet mention no such negativity toward the Chinese!?

 

[Evanson]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Look....I'm very glad that we defeated those nations. The world, although pretty sad right now, is a better place for that victory. But I will not sit down with any other fellow human being and say that we absolutely NEEDED to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to accomplish that victory. I just won't agree with it no matter how it's diced. Certainly some of the horrible things we did was necessary...but I'm not so certain that was.


To explore these issues is what is required to truly learn from history.

Unfortunately, many many people have turned that statement into a platitude.

 

[hotwheels]

Originally Posted By: emg
Originally Posted By: Mystic
After WWII the USA used the Battleship Nevada in atomic bomb testing in the Pacific (along with other ships). They painted the battleship a bright orange color and tried to drop an atomic bomb on it. They missed by some incredible distance. I think it was something like 1000 yards. And remember, these were top of the line pilots and flight crews in these bombers.


From what I remember, the best British crews in Europe could consistently get bombs within a hundred yards of the target markers by the end of the war. The problem seemed to be getting the target markers within a hundred yards of the target

.

But, yes, they still had to make multiple attacks to hit the Tirpitz battleship, even though it was stationary.


The Tirpitz was anchored in a fjord. Approaching her with low-flying aircraft was very difficult or rather impossible due to the terrain and anti-aircraft guns on the ship and along the shore. Also, they had to devleop special 12,000 lbs bombs that were able to penetrate the Tirpitz's armor for a fatal blow.

hotwheels

 

[Mystic]

Maybe you need to read a few history books hotwheels.

The British damaged the Tirpitz using mines carried by midget submarines. Go look it up online. I don't have to look it up online. At the time the British used those midget submarines the Tirpitz was anchored in a fjord with shallow water (large submarines could not get in very easily) and dive bombers would have struck the walls of the surrounding hills. There were also anti-torpedo barriers, anti-aircraft guns and fighter aircraft on nearby airfields and constant patrols, by aircraft, soldiers on land, and patrol boats. Some of the British were killed and some captured by the Germans.

After the Tirpitz was damaged the Germans were trying to get the battleship to a proper repair facility. They moved the ship at least twice. Then the British used bombers to drop very heavy block buster bombs to sink the ship.

The ship sank in shallow water and was scrapped after WWII.

I don't have to look it up. I know about WWII in detail. I know even very small details like how there was a Japanese American on the Yamato when it was sunk. He had been in school in Japan when war started and the Japanese forced him to work as a translator. He was also treated like garbage.

I have read and listened to two Japanese who before they died talked about what it was like on the Yamato's last voyage.

 

[hotwheels]

Mystic, all this was already discussed in great detail in this thread, if you care to remember.

You assume too much about other people's knowledge and you clearly overstimate your own, as evidenced by the factual errors you post while foregoing to check YOUR facts. That you have not heard of the Tallboy bomb and its importance in sinking the Tirpitz is your shortcoming, not mine.

hotwheels

 

[Mystic]

Originally Posted By: hotwheels
Mystic, all this was already discussed in great detail in this thread, if you care to remember.

You assume too much about other people's knowledge and you clearly overstimate your own, as evidenced by the factual errors you post while foregoing to check YOUR facts. That you have not heard of the Tallboy bomb and its importance in sinking the Tirpitz is your shortcoming, not mine.

hotwheels



LOL!!!!!!!!!

How old are you hotwheels? 49? I am 63 and I don't have to look a lot of stuff up online about WWII. I knew about those block buster bombs perhaps before you were even born. The British developed a few different block buster bombs. Some of them were used to destroy massive reinforced bunkers. Those bombs were travelling at very high speed by the time they hit the ground after being dropped form high altitude. They were able to penetrate deeply underground and explode beneath the massive bunkers.

The British had bombers that could carry very heavy bomb loads. Some of their bombers were made of plywood. Until the USA developed the B-29 the British could carry heavier bomb loads than the USA with the B-17.

Didn't know about the midget submarines, did you? If I remember correctly, those midget submarine sailors were called the 'X-Men.'

The British attacked the Tirpitz when the ship was finally within range of the bombers and the bombers could carry heavy enough bombs to get the job done.

But the Tirpitz was put out of action by the actions of the midget submarines. Look it up online.

 

[hotwheels]

Mystic, you behave like a complete prat towards me, for anyone who cares to see. I did mention the micro-subs and torpedo riders in the above linked thread. That there were many efforts and unsuccessful attempts to sink the Tirpitz doesn't change the fact that is was the Tallboy bombs that sunk the ship. I have nothing further to add other than that I ask you to behave decently, which undoubtedly you will find very difficult to do. Impress me.

hotwheels

 

[Mystic]

I remember you attacking me at this website several times. And I don't have to impress you. And you do not impress me.

What exactly is a torpedo rider? They did not have torpedoes on the X-craft. They used mines. The water was shallow so they could put the mines right under the battleship after they had managed to cut through the anti-torpedo netting. After they damaged the Tirpitz the battleship was out of action. And the ship would have stayed out of action unless the Germans could have managed to repair the ship. Sunk or merely damaged, it was out of the war.

Now the Japanese did have a few manned suicide torpedoes, and I think the Germans did also. But no torpedoes on the X-craft. I think the British had 6 midget submarines altogether. I can't remember and I have not looked any of this up online. Except for the information about Operation Crossroads.

Some people have studied a lot of history. I like history. I also like anthropology, auto mechanics, Geology, geography, astronomy, photography, and many other things. I don't text all day. And I have read a lot of books. I may not be 'in' and I am old but I know quite a few things. And I like knowing lots of things. Texting all day does not interest me.