WWII

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
I think one glaring omission in this thread is that the Imperial Japanese surrendered at least as much due to the shock of the Soviet victories in Manchuria during the "August Storm" operations that crushed a dilapidated Japanese "Kuomintang Army" in short order than they did in response to the bombings. The offensive and subsequent Soviet advances threatened a possible partition of Japan along the lines of post war Korea and Germany. The Emperor feared a communist takeover, or competition, and was then willing to make peace without continuing the attrition strategy where he was willing to fight to the death of his last subject in order to maximize Allied casualties - to force a political settlement to keep his throne...


One thing that doesn't get mentioned is the US demands of unconditional surrender. I think Japan had indicated that it was willing to surrender if the Emperor kept the throne, but the US rejected that. Then they dropped the bomb and then said that the emperor could keep his throne.


That was what I'd said several posts ago.

 

[bullwinkle]

I'm going to make a (somewhat) controversial argument-not only did the 2 atomic bombs save Allied military & Japanese civilian casualties, but imagine if the first use of nuclear weapons had been delayed until the Cold War-when the H-bomb was developed-such as over Cuba in the early '60s?? Could have been the end of human life, period. Not lessening their pain and sacrifice, but true students of history should consider the Japanese dead in Hiroshima & Nagasaki as MARTYRS!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Honestly...i truly think the best place for one of the bombs would have been Moscow.

 

[jcwit]

Got a few youngsters spouting off about things they know little about.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


My guess would be the few remaining survivors of the Rape Of Nanking, and all of those from the surrounding areas.
The Nippon 'army' rivaled, and may have even surpassed, the heartless, cold, cruel, inhumanity of the Nazis in what they did to the people of that city.

As stated before...you really need to realize that almost all nations on this earth have and will continue to commit horrible acts of mass killings against other nations/peoples.
It surprises me that you give no mention of such acts that the Chinese communists have committed that are equal in inhuman behavior.
Certainly you must admit that the Japanese people have PROVEN themselves a better ally and friend of the free world since 1945 than the Chinese EVER have?

I just find it odd that you still condemn the Japanese 70 plus years later (when most of them that were even alive then are dead as a doornail)....yet mention no such negativity toward the Chinese!?


I have NO love whatsoever for the Chinese government, and YES, they have also committed horrific atrosities themselves since WW2, so PLEASE stop trying to use this to paint me as some sort of hard core leftist! :no-mo:

We are speaking about WW2 here, ONLY!!!!!

Japan is an "ally and friend", ONLY when it is beneficial to themselves ONLY!

Their government still subsidized their country's companies to dump products on the U.S. market foremost, and the rest of the world secondarily.
They are still the most segregated and racist society on this planet, as much towards other Asian nationals, as towards 'westerners'.

Maybe YOU only love them so much due to their extreme/hardcore/ambitious capitalism, but still overlook their government's intervention in the 'free/open market' you love soooo dearly?
(Goose and gander doesn't apply in their case I guess?)

 

[andyd]

Germany is pretty much flat and is good tank terrain. At one point early on in the Cold War, the US command was considering using nuclear shells to stop a Soviet blitzkrieg. They didn't really have a concept of the toxicity of radiation early on.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Who celebrated the most when Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the taste of Atomic bomb ? The people of China, Philippine, Indo-China ... So many of them died while occupied by Japanese.


My guess would be the few remaining survivors of the Rape Of Nanking, and all of those from the surrounding areas.
The Nippon 'army' rivaled, and may have even surpassed, the heartless, cold, cruel, inhumanity of the Nazis in what they did to the people of that city.

As stated before...you really need to realize that almost all nations on this earth have and will continue to commit horrible acts of mass killings against other nations/peoples.
It surprises me that you give no mention of such acts that the Chinese communists have committed that are equal in inhuman behavior.
Certainly you must admit that the Japanese people have PROVEN themselves a better ally and friend of the free world since 1945 than the Chinese EVER have?

I just find it odd that you still condemn the Japanese 70 plus years later (when most of them that were even alive then are dead as a doornail)....yet mention no such negativity toward the Chinese!?


I have NO love whatsoever for the Chinese government, and YES, they have also committed horrific atrosities themselves since WW2, so PLEASE stop trying to use this to paint me as some sort of hard core leftist! :no-mo:

We are speaking about WW2 here, ONLY!!!!!

Japan is an "ally and friend", ONLY when it is beneficial to themselves ONLY!

Their government still subsidized their country's companies to dump products on the U.S. market foremost, and the rest of the world secondarily.
They are still the most segregated and racist society on this planet, as much towards other Asian nationals, as towards 'westerners'.

Maybe YOU only love them so much due to their extreme/hardcore/ambitious capitalism, but still overlook their government's intervention in the 'free/open market' you love soooo dearly?
(Goose and gander doesn't apply in their case I guess?)


I get it buddy...you hate the Japanese and always will.

But since you only want to stick with the WW2 time period (1939-1945) lets not forget when the Nanking Massacre happened.

It's sad that you live in the past to this degree. By that I mean the hatred you have for a people becuase of the war 70 years ago.....really a shame. Since that horrible war, the Japanese have been great world contributers and citizens. Yet you still live in 1945 (or earlier) and are unable to even give credit nor reflect upon what has happened with Japan in those 70 years. You just despise them...as though the Japanese living today are still somehow responsible for the sins of the 1930's and 40's.

It's also sad how the very thing you accuse Japan of being (racist), you yourself are seemingly guiltyof this as evidenced in most of your comments about the Japanese.

I won't even get into your rantings about my political beliefs and capitalism.

Strange indeed my friend.

 

[Evanson]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
It's also sad how the very thing you accuse Japan of being (racist), you yourself are seemingly guiltyof this as evidenced in most of your comments about the Japanese.


That's a bit ironic given your statements in the Starbucks thread!

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Evanson
Originally Posted By: andrewg
It's also sad how the very thing you accuse Japan of being (racist), you yourself are seemingly guiltyof this as evidenced in most of your comments about the Japanese.


That's a bit ironic given your statements in the Starbucks thread!


I've said nothing in that thread to indicate irony. That is your left-sided perception.

If you look for the boogey man hard enough Evanson....you will find him wether he is there or not.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
I get it buddy...you hate the Japanese and always will.

But since you only want to stick with the WW2 time period (1939-1945) lets not forget when the Nanking Massacre happened.


Somehow, I KNEW you would bring that up, and my response is that it IS tied into WW2, since it was part of their militarism/imperialism in preparation for that war.
Now what's your rationale/criticism for ME not excusing, or "forgiving" the Nazi atrosities?? (This I HAVE TO hear.

)

Originally Posted By: andrewg
It's sad that you live in the past to this degree. By that I mean the hatred you have for a people becuase of the war 70 years ago.....really a shame. Since that horrible war, the Japanese have been great world contributers and citizens. Yet you still live in 1945 (or earlier) and are unable to even give credit nor reflect upon what has happened with Japan in those 70 years. You just despise them...as though the Japanese living today are still somehow responsible for the sins of the 1930's and 40's.


Not "living in the past", as it is more what they (or at least their government/large corporations) have done more recently to U.S. and OUR economy/trade, above and beyond what we did to ourselves manufacturing wise, insult to injury as it were.

"World contributors and citizens"? I not so sure about that, but, YES, they have been quite industrious/motivated in a nationalistic sort of way for those "70 years", and would ONLY support companies/products from their own country (trade tariffs or not).
I could only WISH that U.S. citizens were the same way, voluntarily.

I find it funny how you, and many others on here, see fit to criticize/lambast the ones who refuse to "forgive and forget" those who have actually committed atrosities against humanity, yet it is A OK for all of 'y'all' to angrily, vehemently HATE on anyone, or anything that is even the slightest bit left of center, or even approaching the center from the right for that matter, who have committed NO real crimes (except in the mind of hardcore, purist, draconian, right wingers).

"Hate" is a bit different from not forgiving, but maybe not in your mind.

BTW; I would have NO PROBLEM dating, or even marrying a Japanese woman, whether a national, or an American of Japanese descent, although yes, I will admit that i prefer the women of China, Taiwan, Korea, and most of Southeast Asia more.
(Unlike others, I would NOT date those I "hate".

)

 

[andrewg]

Dailydriver...I stand by everything I've stated previously in relation to your opinions and posts. No need for me to go over and over the same basic issues and differences we have.

We should just leave it at that.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
I get it buddy...you hate the Japanese and always will.

But since you only want to stick with the WW2 time period (1939-1945) lets not forget when the Nanking Massacre happened.


Yes, let's not. December 13, 1937 – January 1938

*Before* the WW2 time period.

Japan didn't get involved in *that* until Dec 1941.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
One thing that doesn't get mentioned is the US demands of unconditional surrender. I think Japan had indicated that it was willing to surrender if the Emperor kept the throne, but the US rejected that. Then they dropped the bomb and then said that the emperor could keep his throne.


How would anyone have known anything of Japanese demands/conditions? AFAIK the only attempt at overtures of communications Japan made to contact the Allies was through the Soviet gov't, whom they had an agreement of nonbelligerence with at that point. The USSR ignored it and quickly invaded Manchuria, as was agreed upon in principle during the Allied conference at Yalta...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: andyd
Germany is pretty much flat and is good tank terrain. At one point early on in the Cold War, the US command was considering using nuclear shells to stop a Soviet blitzkrieg. They didn't really have a concept of the toxicity of radiation early on.


So are parts of Japan - factions of the U.S. Army were salivating about getting tanks onto the Tokyo Plane, actually, where they could conduct a proper war of maneuver. Something the Allied armies (and U.S. Marines) were rarely able to do...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Just as a general statement, people that rejoice the massive suffering of peoples based on their contemporary (or previous) gov'ts are idiots...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: andrewg
I get it buddy...you hate the Japanese and always will.

But since you only want to stick with the WW2 time period (1939-1945) lets not forget when the Nanking Massacre happened.


Yes, let's not. December 13, 1937 – January 1938

*Before* the WW2 time period.

Japan didn't get involved in *that* until Dec 1941.


The first Japanese "advances" (as some of their current text books will state) started in 1931 actually...

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: andrewg
I get it buddy...you hate the Japanese and always will.

But since you only want to stick with the WW2 time period (1939-1945) lets not forget when the Nanking Massacre happened.


Yes, let's not. December 13, 1937 – January 1938

*Before* the WW2 time period.

Japan didn't get involved in *that* until Dec 1941.


The first Japanese "advances" (as some of their current text books will state) started in 1931 actually...


Which still has *nothing* to do with WW2.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Trajan

Which still has *nothing* to do with WW2.


Try selling that idea to all the nations attacked and invaded before the period you are calling WW2.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: Trajan

Which still has *nothing* to do with WW2.


Try selling that idea to all the nations attacked and invaded before the period you are calling WW2.


Since WW2 is considered to kick off in Sep 1939 with the invasion of Poland, there is nothing to sell.

Now if you desire to push some sort of revisionist history, it is for you to sell. Good luck with that.

 

[javacontour]

Not revisionist. But that view is a very western view.

For people in the far east, if you ask them, WW2 started much sooner.

Also, one could argue Hitler got his forces bloodied a bit via the Condor Legion in the Spanish Civil war with their involvement starting in 1936.

There may be other German military extracurriculars that are not coming to mind at this moment. So I'm not saying 1936 is a start date.

My point is, it's a matter of perspective. From a "Western-Centric" view, 1939 is the start date.

Others in the east may view things differently.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: Trajan

Which still has *nothing* to do with WW2.


Try selling that idea to all the nations attacked and invaded before the period you are calling WW2.


Since WW2 is considered to kick off in Sep 1939 with the invasion of Poland, there is nothing to sell.

Now if you desire to push some sort of revisionist history, it is for you to sell. Good luck with that.