Wrapping screw on oilfilter in heatinsulation to increase warm up in cold climates?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Flyingdutchman

Thread starter
Messages
186
Location
The Netherlands
So where's the "but"? That's exactly what it does, the coolant heats the oil because the oil is VERY slow to come up to temperature. Since the vehicle in question has the aforementioned device, insulating the oil filter isn't going to accomplish anything, all the heavy lifting in bringing the oil up to temp rapidly will be done by the coolant.
okay then i misunderstood your post, i thought you where hinting on deleting the exchanger because it would cool to much because that was mentioned before.

Yes the exchanger is one of the best inventions in terms of engine heat up/cooling.
I've had cars before that didnt have those and the oil took almost 3 times as long to reach operating temp then the water did, especialy with city drivng. On modern cars they almost rise together.
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Messages
46,210
Location
Ontario, Canada
okay then i misunderstood your post, i thought you where hinting on deleting the exchanger because it would cool to much because that was mentioned before.

Yes the exchanger is one of the best inventions in terms of engine heat up/cooling.
I've had cars before that didnt have those and the oil took almost 3 times as long to reach operating temp then the water did, especialy with city drivng. On modern cars they almost rise together.

Clearly.

The pictures I showed are of a vehicle with an oil/coolant heat exchanger (my 2016 SRT Grand Cherokee) you can see that even at -28C, the oil and coolant temps track each other.
 
Messages
17,634
Location
...
Yes, I remember adding a couple of litres of Quaker State 10W-30 to my oil-guzzling Impala, one very cold winter in the early '80s. The oil had been cold-soaked in the trunk, and came out of the can (cardboard cylinder with steel end caps) like cold molasses. Literally took a couple of minutes per can.


I know someone who literally scraped QS out of his oil pan back when they were having problems. It looked like pudding. That was 10w40.
 
Messages
27,893
Location
PNW
Do something like this ... a heater on the oil filter. Once the oil is warmed up, then turn it off (install a manual on/off switch in the cabin). You could even insulate over the heater to make it more effective, and the insulation would also help maintain heat loss when the heater was off. Could also get an oil pan heater, or just use a block heater if you have power to plug into over night.

 
Last edited:
Messages
5,355
Location
Paramount, California
Modern cars are designed to warm up verry rapidly with water/oil heat exchanger/ underplate under the engine/ heat insulation in the engine covers etc...
Modern engines are basicly running in a box with only the radiator being outside the box.

However i am currently working on a Honda k24 2.4 engine which will produce around 320hp. However it is still used for daily driving and in the Netherlands the winters will be around 30F. Combined with that his daily route is only 16 miles to his work and 17 miles back i would like to improve the heat up a little bit.

We will be instaling and underplate under the engine because originaly the car doesnt have one.

My suggestion is to wrap the screw on oilfilter in heat isolation material because as you can see on engineering explaind video the oil filter is one of the hottest parts and its only a milimeter thick steel that seperates the hot oil from beeing cooled by the outside air.

This will be only fitted in the winters and will be removed during the summer. I dont think the oil will now run too hot because i rarely hear stories that on a modern car engine/oil cooling is a problem and this car does have on oil to water heat exchanger.

Also the hoses going the to in car heater warm up fast and lose heat. Might also wrap those.
Why didn't you wrap the top of the oil filter? That's where you lose a lot of heat, too.

This is funny because the goal is to keep the oil cool, not hot. By keeping the oil cool, you reduce wear and extend oil life. In fact an oversized oil filter will also reduce the oil temperature slightly. Perhaps you are confusing between warming up the coolant vs. the oil? Of course, it is important to warm up the coolant fast, but I don't know why you would like to raise the oil temperature more after the coolant thermostat opens.
 

Flyingdutchman

Thread starter
Messages
186
Location
The Netherlands
Why didn't you wrap the top of the oil filter? That's where you lose a lot of heat, too.

This is funny because the goal is to keep the oil cool, not hot. By keeping the oil cool, you reduce wear and extend oil life. In fact an oversized oil filter will also reduce the oil temperature slightly. Perhaps you are confusing between warming up the coolant vs. the oil? Of course, it is important to warm up the coolant fast, but I don't know why you would like to raise the oil temperature more after the coolant thermostat opens.
This was an internet picture, i did not do it myself yet because the engine still has to go into the car. I would then also cover the top of the filter and maybe use a slightly thicker insulation material.

Raising the oil temp once the thermostat is opened is not the objective and will probably not really happen because this car has an oil to water heat exchanger.

The main goals are slightly faster/easier oil warm up and after being parked longer keeping the heat in the engine.

I understand that for people from the US this story might not make sense, but the netherlands is one of the smallest countries in the world. For most people a lot of trips are only 10 miles or so and then its shut off again. In those 10 miles the coolant will reach temp pretty fast. And after that most of the time also the oil.

I get that 30F winters are not cold at all. But compared to the summers it is cold enough the create a lot of sludgeing in the winters.

But its not enough to completly heat soak the engine/gearbox like it would do after a long trip to keep the heat in, with all those short trips and the engine cooling down fast it has to run on enrichmixture after everystartup. This is bad for the oil due to fuel dilliution, not getting up to temp to prevent sludge and getting rid of the fuel in the oil. Also this causes extra wear on the cylinderwalls because the gasoline flushes the oil off the walls.

Due to this being an expensive engine we want to prevent the extra wear that is caused by this, as most of you will know most engine damage/wear is caused during cold starts. I have read reports that every cold start does about as much damage as 400 hard driving miles.
 

Attachments

  • 20210105_160652.jpg
    20210105_160652.jpg
    117.9 KB · Views: 7
Messages
27,893
Location
PNW
Raising the oil temp once the thermostat is opened is not the objective and will probably not really happen because this car has an oil to water heat exchanger.
Guess I missed that in your previous posting. If it has a coolant to oil heat exchanger then the oil will warm-up pretty fast as the cooling system heats up, which typically happens pretty quickly. I take it this car will have an electric fan (as opposed to a mechanical belt driven fan) that will not be running until the cooling system needs cooling. You should verify what the thermostat is set to run at, and ensure it's not some really cold thermostat as that certainly won't help. Modern cars normally run the cooling system around 200~220 F. The oil temperature shouldn't be too far behind when there's a coolant to oil heat exchanger.

As far as trying to keep the oil warm after shutdown when it's cold outside, especially the longer it sits (ie, over night). Really not much you can do there that will make a big difference unless you close-off and insulate the whole engine compartment which would be a ridiculous thing to do.
 
Messages
5,355
Location
Paramount, California
This was an internet picture, i did not do it myself yet because the engine still has to go into the car. I would then also cover the top of the filter and maybe use a slightly thicker insulation material.

Raising the oil temp once the thermostat is opened is not the objective and will probably not really happen because this car has an oil to water heat exchanger.

The main goals are slightly faster/easier oil warm up and after being parked longer keeping the heat in the engine.

I understand that for people from the US this story might not make sense, but the netherlands is one of the smallest countries in the world. For most people a lot of trips are only 10 miles or so and then its shut off again. In those 10 miles the coolant will reach temp pretty fast. And after that most of the time also the oil.

I get that 30F winters are not cold at all. But compared to the summers it is cold enough the create a lot of sludgeing in the winters.

But its not enough to completly heat soak the engine/gearbox like it would do after a long trip to keep the heat in, with all those short trips and the engine cooling down fast it has to run on enrichmixture after everystartup. This is bad for the oil due to fuel dilliution, not getting up to temp to prevent sludge and getting rid of the fuel in the oil. Also this causes extra wear on the cylinderwalls because the gasoline flushes the oil off the walls.

Due to this being an expensive engine we want to prevent the extra wear that is caused by this, as most of you will know most engine damage/wear is caused during cold starts. I have read reports that every cold start does about as much damage as 400 hard driving miles.
I'm not sure how much of the cold-engine wear is caused by the oil being cold vs. the clearances being wrong and the mixture being too rich.

You might want to invest in an oil-pan or preferably an engine-block heater. Wrapping the oil filter won't help you a bit in eliminating the problem of the oil being cold when you crank a cold engine.
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Messages
46,210
Location
Ontario, Canada
@OVERKILL - °C for temp, but PSI for pressure and not KPa?

Nice catch ;)

Yes, I was born as the 80's happened, so I grew up in an odd mix of systems. Weight was measured in pounds, pressure, PSI, but speed was in kilometres/h.

Distance was where things got spicy! As lots of stuff was measured in inches and feet, but we were taught metric in school, so we did the 50m and 100m dash for example, and of course, like speed, road distance was in kilometres and we used mm, cm...etc.

So, for me, kPa have no meaning in terms of pressure, but I use celsius for temperature. I think of my weight in lbs, and a lot of places still measure meat weight per lb but my doctor uses kilograms. My parents still use Fahrenheit for temperature, as to a lot of the older guys I work with, but like with kPa, I have a hard time with the significance of values in that system except around the 160-250 range where fluid temps are often measured. I use feet and inches for my height, and area I think of square ft (and that's usually what's referenced in construction) for smaller things, but if I'm talking about large spaces it may end up in acres or square kilometres, lol. Land is still often measured in the former here.

For fluid volume, I use litres.

It's similar for people younger than me too, because so much stuff is still "American" given our proximity, so they might not QUITE be as screwed up as me, but they won't be straight-up metric either, lol ;)
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Messages
46,210
Location
Ontario, Canada
This was an internet picture, i did not do it myself yet because the engine still has to go into the car. I would then also cover the top of the filter and maybe use a slightly thicker insulation material.

Raising the oil temp once the thermostat is opened is not the objective and will probably not really happen because this car has an oil to water heat exchanger.

The main goals are slightly faster/easier oil warm up and after being parked longer keeping the heat in the engine.

I understand that for people from the US this story might not make sense, but the netherlands is one of the smallest countries in the world. For most people a lot of trips are only 10 miles or so and then its shut off again. In those 10 miles the coolant will reach temp pretty fast. And after that most of the time also the oil.

I get that 30F winters are not cold at all. But compared to the summers it is cold enough the create a lot of sludgeing in the winters.

But its not enough to completly heat soak the engine/gearbox like it would do after a long trip to keep the heat in, with all those short trips and the engine cooling down fast it has to run on enrichmixture after everystartup. This is bad for the oil due to fuel dilliution, not getting up to temp to prevent sludge and getting rid of the fuel in the oil. Also this causes extra wear on the cylinderwalls because the gasoline flushes the oil off the walls.

Due to this being an expensive engine we want to prevent the extra wear that is caused by this, as most of you will know most engine damage/wear is caused during cold starts. I have read reports that every cold start does about as much damage as 400 hard driving miles.

That's not really "sludge", what you are observing there is the combination of vaporized and misted oil product in the crankcase mixing with moisture and condensing where it is cool. This is because the ambient temperature is vastly different from the component temperature and condensation happens during the warm-up phase. You have cold, dense air coming in not only through the intake, but also by the crankcase vent and during the warm-up phase, there's a period there where condensation happens on the cooler parts of the engine, like the valve cover for example. That condensation gets mixed with the crankcase gasses and mist and forms this emulsification on those colder spots. Common locations are the oil filler neck, PCV grommet area, crankcase vent area...etc. If you get the engine hot enough, you'll eventually drive out the moisture and the rest of the product will reintegrate into what's going on in the crankcase.

In this case, it isn't the oil temperature that's the problem, but rather the overall temperature of the engine, particularly the most peripheral bits that are exposed to ambient and not the coolant. Vent hoses, valve covers...etc, these items can still be relatively cool to the touch even after coolant is up to temperature. For those to get hot, it takes a LOT longer. This is the case even with the oil heated by the coolant.

My old Expedition, Ford used very long filler necks on the valve cover and it was not uncommon for it to develop this "mayonnaise" at the top of the filler neck and on the bottom of the oil fill cap. If the temp warmed up a bit, it would naturally all just go away. This was a vehicle that had a heat exchanger, so oil temp wasn't the problem. Short trips just never got the engine bay and subsequently items like the filler neck hot enough to prevent the moisture from forming.
 
Messages
9,103
Location
Houston, TX
Nice catch ;)

Yes, I was born as the 80's happened, so I grew up in an odd mix of systems. Weight was measured in pounds, pressure, PSI, but speed was in kilometres/h.

Distance was where things got spicy! As lots of stuff was measured in inches and feet, but we were taught metric in school, so we did the 50m and 100m dash for example, and of course, like speed, road distance was in kilometres and we used mm, cm...etc.

So, for me, kPa have no meaning in terms of pressure, but I use celsius for temperature. I think of my weight in lbs, and a lot of places still measure meat weight per lb but my doctor uses kilograms. My parents still use Fahrenheit for temperature, as to a lot of the older guys I work with, but like with kPa, I have a hard time with the significance of values in that system except around the 160-250 range where fluid temps are often measured. I use feet and inches for my height, and area I think of square ft (and that's usually what's referenced in construction) for smaller things, but if I'm talking about large spaces it may end up in acres or square kilometres, lol. Land is still often measured in the former here.

For fluid volume, I use litres.

It's similar for people younger than me too, because so much stuff is still "American" given our proximity, so they might not QUITE be as screwed up as me, but they won't be straight-up metric either, lol ;)
I am with you and only teasing. My colleagues in the UK have a similar mix of Imperial and Metric they contend with. It was really bad in the 80's when the American car manufacturer's decided to use a mix of inch and metric for fasteners with seemingly no rhyme or reason as to which system went where. I am OK with both, but I do find that metric is more "consistent".
 
Messages
16,271
Location
N.H, U.S.A.
Modern cars are designed to warm up verry rapidly with water/oil heat exchanger/ underplate under the engine/ heat insulation in the engine covers etc...
Modern engines are basicly running in a box with only the radiator being outside the box.

However i am currently working on a Honda k24 2.4 engine which will produce around 320hp. However it is still used for daily driving and in the Netherlands the winters will be around 30F. Combined with that his daily route is only 16 miles to his work and 17 miles back i would like to improve the heat up a little bit.

We will be instaling and underplate under the engine because originaly the car doesnt have one.

My suggestion is to wrap the screw on oilfilter in heat isolation material because as you can see on engineering explaind video the oil filter is one of the hottest parts and its only a milimeter thick steel that seperates the hot oil from beeing cooled by the outside air.

This will be only fitted in the winters and will be removed during the summer. I dont think the oil will now run too hot because i rarely hear stories that on a modern car engine/oil cooling is a problem and this car does have on oil to water heat exchanger.

Also the hoses going the to in car heater warm up fast and lose heat. Might also wrap those.
Sounds like a reasonable idea, you may also look to block off ~ 1/2 of the radiator frontal area, but carefully monitor your engine coolant temps.

Many of the other responses I have read here are unhelpful and inconsiderate - but this is a forum of mostly laypersons.

BITOG is going down the drain. But it was never NORIA, though I thought it had higher aspirations.

BTW , My Wife is Dutch 👍 I recall her father was grew up near The Hague.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top