Wrapping screw on oilfilter in heatinsulation to increase warm up in cold climates?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Messages
783
Location
South Carolina
Okay then pick the points and explain my mistakes, i am here to learn.



As others have told you watercooled alternators are used and have been used by multiple manufacturers. Example in the picture is 2003 bmw v12.

Modern cars do use higher temp operating thermostats, for example the new mercedes engine thermostats open at 110c but they are ECU controlled.
When the car warms up the ECU lets the coolant become 110c to heat soak the engine and oil fast, after that the ecu takes over control of the thermostat and keeps it around 97c. But it can also let it run a little hotter on low load constant driving speeds, but it also lowers the temp when youre flooring it


Yes as i said we will be fitting an undershield to the engine bay just like modern cars, radiator shutters would be most ideal but then were going out of budget. Its only a couple of cheap things that we will do. I would love to build it though, however there is no room foor it either.


If this is true this would be very intersting here in Holland for people who drive a lot of short distances, only thing i am not sure about is how would this work??

Thanks for all the guys who are sending great comments and ideas.
For some however i wonder why there even on BITOG, If you live in an area where they still drive carburated v8s than i dont think this topic is interesting for you.
I had a similar post but my question was would a hotter thermostate bring an engine to operate temperature faster? My step dad saturn ended up having a faulty thermostate combined with short trips and moisture was getting inside the valve covers and was using gas alot more. I put a higher thermostate in it and after a month no more moisture. Gas mileage is up. He drives only 6 miles. I dont know if I would've seen similar results with a regular thermostate though. My thinking was hotter coolant would translate to hotter oil. When it comes to carburted engines, it is true they favor cooler temps. The gas can literally boil out if the lines before they reach the carb. It's called valor lock. That's why many people use 180°f on there carbed engines. Personally on my carbed ones I use oem. Most old fords are 192°f. Ethonal free gas doesnt have the vapor lock problem as bad also.
 
Last edited:
Messages
783
Location
South Carolina
 
Messages
16,271
Location
N.H, U.S.A.
I had a similar post but my question was would a hotter thermostate bring an engine to operate temperature faster? My step dad saturn ended up having a faulty thermostate combined with short trips and moisture was getting inside the valve covers and was using gas alot more. I put a higher thermostate in it and after a month no more moisture. Gas mileage is up. He drives only 6 miles. I dont know if I would've seen similar results with a regular thermostate though. My thinking was hotter coolant would translate to hotter oil. When it comes to carburted engines, it is true they favor cooler temps. The gas can literally boil out if the lines before they reach the carb. It's called valor lock. That's why many people use 180°f on there carbed engines. Personally on my carbed ones I use oem. Most old fords are 192°f. Ethonal free gas doesnt have the vapor lock problem as bad also.
Your dads issue was a partially stuck OPEN thermostat which causes protracted warmup and over cooling - then possible over heating.

water vapour will come off oil at 160 deg, it doesnt have to boil.
But Highly agreed that short trips are petrol engine killers. Time to look for a plug in hybrid so he can drive on battery only.
 
Messages
783
Location
South Carolina
Your dads issue was a partially stuck OPEN thermostat which causes protracted warmup and over cooling - then possible over heating.

water vapour will come off oil at 160 deg, it doesnt have to boil.
But Highly agreed that short trips are petrol engine killers. Time to look for a plug in hybrid so he can drive on battery only.
Na, he'll just forgot to plug it in. With these old folks better to stick with what they know. I would consider a volt though.
 
Messages
207
Location
WA
Do you drink warm beer or cold beer?

Get a beer Koozy and slip it over the filter.

You can get them custom printed and market them.

 
Last edited:

Flyingdutchman

Thread starter
Messages
186
Location
The Netherlands
I had a similar post but my question was would a hotter thermostate bring an engine to operate temperature faster? My step dad saturn ended up having a faulty thermostate combined with short trips and moisture was getting inside the valve covers and was using gas alot more. I put a higher thermostate in it and after a month no more moisture. Gas mileage is up. He drives only 6 miles. I dont know if I would've seen similar results with a regular thermostate though. My thinking was hotter coolant would translate to hotter oil. When it comes to carburted engines, it is true they favor cooler temps. The gas can literally boil out if the lines before they reach the carb. It's called valor lock. That's why many people use 180°f on there carbed engines. Personally on my carbed ones I use oem. Most old fords are 192°f. Ethonal free gas doesnt have the vapor lock problem as bad also.
Yes as i said some(most EU) modern cars use ECU actuated thermostats, warm water does not mean the entire engine is warm, thats why you cant floor an engine only after the thermostat has opened.

The newer cars that use high temp thermostats let the engine warm up till 110c / 230f. This helps heatsoaking the engine/head etc.. faster, because they have an oil/to water heat exchanger this also helps heating up the oil faster by using the 110c / 230f hot water.

So yes for short trips colder/climate a higher opening thermostat might defintatly see some improvements, to heat up the valve cover etc...
The time that it takes before an entire engine is up to temp might be 2 to 3 times as long compared to when the thermostat reaches temp.

The car we are using is a ''high performance'' car so to let it run hotter at all times is not benificial, because a hotter engine is less powerfull.
There are also colder thermostats available, that would be better if this was for example a track car only. However because its also used for daily use this is not recommendable.

These are the problems where manufacturers are also coping with, especially with high performance vehicles.
Emission laws require extremely fast warm up, however the engine can not run too warm, and with fast cars the coolant system still has to have enough capicity to deal with track conditions. Especially turbo cars suffer from this.
Hence why an MAP controlled thermostat is ideal, however retrofitting this to an older car is difficult/expensive.

Map Controlled Thermostat by MAHLE - Optimal Temperature for the Engine - YouTube

But Highly agreed that short trips are petrol engine killers.
Yes absolutely the worst conditions for petrol engines, oil sludges/saturates with fuel, valve covers gunk up, cylinders have a lot of wear from the rich running during warm up, oil never gets the temp it needs to vapour off the moisture and fuel etc... Especially GDI engines

Hence why manufacturers state that short driving is listed as severe conditions for a vehicle and then you should stick to shorter OCI's. (which most people dont do)
 

Attachments

  • MAHLE-MAP-Thermostats.jpg
    MAHLE-MAP-Thermostats.jpg
    64.6 KB · Views: 4
Last edited:
Messages
783
Location
South Carolina
Yes as i said some(most EU) modern cars use ECU actuated thermostats, warm water does not mean the entire engine is warm, thats why you cant floor an engine only after the thermostat has opened.

The newer cars that use high temp thermostats let the engine warm up till 110c / 230f. This helps heatsoaking the engine/head etc.. faster, because they have an oil/to water heat exchanger this also helps heating up the oil faster by using the 110c / 230f hot water.

So yes for short trips colder/climate a higher opening thermostat might defintatly see some improvements, to heat up the valve cover etc...
The time that it takes before an entire engine is up to temp might be 2 to 3 times as long compared to when the thermostat reaches temp.

The car we are using is a ''high performance'' car so to let it run hotter at all times is not benificial, because a hotter engine is less powerfull.
There are also colder thermostats available, that would be better if this was for example a track car only. However because its also used for daily use this is not recommendable.

These are the problems where manufacturers are also coping with, especially with high performance vehicles.
Emission laws require extremely fast warm up, however the engine can not run too warm, and with fast cars the coolant system still has to have enough capicity to deal with track conditions. Especially turbo cars suffer from this.
Hence why an MAP controlled thermostat is ideal, however retrofitting this to an older car is difficult/expensive.

Map Controlled Thermostat by MAHLE - Optimal Temperature for the Engine - YouTube


Yes absolutely the worst conditions for petrol engines, oil sludges/saturates with fuel, valve covers gunk up, cylinders have a lot of wear from the rich running during warm up, oil never gets the temp it needs to vapour off the moisture and fuel etc... Especially GDI engines

Hence why manufacturers state that short driving is listed as severe conditions for a vehicle and then you should stick to shorter OCI's. (which most people dont do)
Since it's his daily, maybe swap the thermostate to a cooler ome when it's on the track. That is if it's easy to change. It may have less performance using the hotter one but I'm sure it would be fast enough for regular driving.
 

Flyingdutchman

Thread starter
Messages
186
Location
The Netherlands
Since it's his daily, maybe swap the thermostate to a cooler ome when it's on the track. That is if it's easy to change. It may have less performance using the hotter one but I'm sure it would be fast enough for regular driving.
Yeah thats true, this thermostat is in a difficult spot so its not that easy to do.
If this where a really cold climate or if it stayed cold here all year round i might have done this.

This car is fitted with 2618 alloy pistons, these pistons are forged and the material is thougher, more resistant to knock and high pistons speeds etc..
However this material does expand more than 4032 alloy cast pistons that are normaly used in production engines.

This means these have more clearance when cold and sit perfectly at temp. It will run pretty noisy when cold. Also a reason why we d like to have fast as possible warm up.

I'd have a used MAP controlled bmw thermostat laying around.
In my wildest dreams i could fit it.
I still have some analog input ports free on the ECU which could be fitted to some radiator inlet and oulet temp sensors which would have to calculate radiator efficiency. Then i would have to write an EEPROM which also uses this data together with engine coolant temp, oil temp, vehicle speed and throttle position.
It would have to be programmed to actuate the MAP thermostat to certain tresholds/algoritmes.

However its not my car and we wont be doing this. The engine is currently fitted and we will now start working on the exhaust system and intake system.

If you lived in an extreme all year round cold climate you could also use some kind of heat exchanger using the exhaustmanifold heat just like a headifold.
 

Attachments

  • IntegratedExhaustEngine.png
    IntegratedExhaustEngine.png
    615 KB · Views: 6
Messages
4,966
Location
Lima, Ohio, USA
FlyingDutchman someone brought up a good point a few pages back... are we sure there wasn't an error in the unit conversions for the temp?

30F is only -1 C, barely below freezing. it's currently that cold @ my house, and... it's shirt sleeve weather for me...
now, -30F on the otherhand, is -34C. that's mighty cold. cold enough that you can throw a panfull of hot water in the air it it will instantly turn to snow...

it's 30F or below for several months a year here, and I am lucky to drive 16 mi a DAY, (I only live 4.5 mi from work) and i've never had any sludge issues.

could you do it? sure, absolutely. I doubt it's going to make much difference over all...
 
Messages
1,945
You keep thinking all the composite components are for heat retention. That is incorrect. Composite components are use for weight savings mainly. They are also used for a cost savings and sometimes a composite component is more rigid or durable than a comparable metal component.

Also, engineers don’t use the underbody covers to insulate the engine. The underbody covers are use for aerodynamics (fuel efficiency), and the top covers are used mainly for aesthetics.

Some engine covers also encourage air flow, not encourage heat retention.
 
Messages
696
Location
My Mother's basement.
As i said its not only to heat up the engine (oil) fast, but also to keep the heat in the engine(oil) for longer.

At 30F outside temp my bmw e90 325i stil is at half the heat of operating temps after sitting for 4/5 hours.
The honda is stone cold after sitting for 2 hours, i thought maybe with a couple euros of heat insultation this can be improved a lot.
As most of the people here will probably know the cold starts and the enriched running are the periods where usally most of the engine wear occours.

Yes that would definatly help, but the drivetrain has now costed around 8000 euros so he will probably not do that :)
8000 eu in the drivetrain and afraid or unwilling to mash the throttle? What was the purpose of the mods, to make the engine more fragile?
Confused here.
 

Flyingdutchman

Thread starter
Messages
186
Location
The Netherlands
30F is only -1 C, barely below freezing. it's currently that cold @ my house, and... it's shirt sleeve weather for me...
now, -30F on the otherhand, is -34C. that's mighty cold. cold enough that you can throw a panfull of hot water in the air it it will instantly turn to snow...

it's 30F or below for several months a year here, and I am lucky to drive 16 mi a DAY, (I only live 4.5 mi from work) and i've never had any sludge issues.

could you do it? sure, absolutely. I doubt it's going to make much difference over all...
Yes its around 30f in here the winters, i know that that is not verry cold, however it is cold enough to create a lot of sludge during the winters in engines because of the short distances that are driven here. And you can notice that warm up time takes about 2 3 times as long compared to the summer time.

You keep thinking all the composite components are for heat retention. That is incorrect. Composite components are use for weight savings mainly. They are also used for a cost savings and sometimes a composite component is more rigid or durable than a comparable metal component.

Also, engineers don’t use the underbody covers to insulate the engine. The underbody covers are use for aerodynamics (fuel efficiency), and the top covers are used mainly for aesthetics.

Some engine covers also encourage air flow, not encourage heat retention.
Yeah offcourse there main purpose was to reduce costs and engine weight, however faster warm up is definitaly also increased by this because the plastic houses dont heat soak as much as allu does and so the heat is kept in the oil/into the engine.

With my bmw i drove without the undercover for a while due to an oil leak that i was wokring on to find, i noticed that the engine cooled down much faster and warmup took much longer. How did i notice this: my car drives on LPG fuel, (common in holland) the car switches over from gasoline to lpg once the engine coolant has reached 40c in the ecu input. Without the cover this took much longer/i was much further from home before this happened.

Also the engine noise was much louder outside the car and also a little inside the car.

The top covers on some of the newest generation cars are not made from plastic any more but from some type of PU like foam material, also for valve train sound insulation and heat retention/faster warm up.

At the other picture you can see where bmw puts insulation on there newest engines, they claim that these engines can maintain heat for up tot 36 hours.

8000 eu in the drivetrain and afraid or unwilling to mash the throttle? What was the purpose of the mods, to make the engine more fragile?
Confused here.
This was a reply from me to somebody who joked that giving a cold engine full throttle will warm it up faster.
However this car has 2618 alloy forged pistons who need more cold clearance due to the expansion of the pistons at operating temp, hence its not wise to do this.

Of course if this engine is at operating temp it will raced:)
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210121-083925_eBay.jpg
    Screenshot_20210121-083925_eBay.jpg
    71.3 KB · Views: 5
  • Screenshot_20210121-083931_eBay.jpg
    Screenshot_20210121-083931_eBay.jpg
    79.2 KB · Views: 5
  • Screenshot_20210112-232727_WhatsApp.jpg
    Screenshot_20210112-232727_WhatsApp.jpg
    51.9 KB · Views: 5

Astro14

$100 Site Donor
Staff member
Messages
13,249
Location
Virginia Beach
Actually, six pages of OCD and argument over the insignificant heat loss through a filter canister is quite enough. The points have been made, but the bickering continues. Lock time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top