Wow, blown away at Acura dealership service price

[CKN]

He might be right. It seems on average a vehicle with 100k on it goes for about 50% of new. Assuming a life of 200k, it's worth trading for new and just using the first 50% of the vehicle's life which undoubtably is the better half.

That's been my philosophy of vehicle ownership.

 

[John105]

That's been my philosophy of vehicle ownership.

But everyone's different. How about folks who are in the drive 'em 'til the wheels fall off group? Like say Bogleheads--it's not necessarily right/wrong, it's preference. I go down the road in a 17 yo car and it's fine. There's no rust, there's no damage, a few things here and there no longer work, but I don't feel I'm in the worst 1/10th of the vehicle's life. It's well documented that 1 mil milers exist, and 500k is pretty likely, with 300k a slam dunk. I'm at 132k.

 

[CKN]

But everyone's different. How about folks who are in the drive 'em 'til the wheels fall off group? Like say Bogleheads--it's not necessarily right/wrong, it's preference. I go down the road in a 17 yo car and it's fine. There's no rust, there's no damage, a few things here and there no longer work, but I don't feel I'm in the worst 1/10th of the vehicle's life. It's well documented that 1 mil milers exist, and 500k is pretty likely, with 300k a slam dunk. I'm at 132k.

What ever works for you-and your happy. Great Post. There is no right and wrong. It's just the threads that say all of us driving newer cars because America is in debt, etc., etc. is a bad thing. As if those people are financial experts. I have been turning my trucks frequently-because it made sense. Now with the escalation in truck prices the last three years-it may not anymore.

 

[javacontour]

My buddy is a really smart guy and makes A LOT of money. Those types tend to preserve wealth. So there are a couple of things that puzzle me with his thoughts. He has a family of 5, and gets the cheapest health care, a HSA. He said he has done the math and even with getting services, it's cheaper. Doesn't sound right but I believe him and suspect he doesn't need much for services. Then, my wife got insurance for our family and it blew his theory out of the water. School district had two choices only--HMO, PPO, $0 deductible (remember HSA, HRA, these were invented by insurance cos to defray costs to the employer, not to increase value to the employee--so when available, the HMO or PPO are jacked to a discouraging rate). I felt like it were the year 2000. Her cost is 33% of mine, $0 deductible, for the PPO, and mine has a $1,500 deducible. I can't wait for the first pay in 2023.

The HDHP/HSA has saved me money. I actually got into a higher tier plan that paid more once I paid my Out of Pocket value.
So the premium was 1/2 of the mid tier plan I had last year. Once I paid my part with pre-tax money, the HDHP had lower co-pays than the mid tier plan I was using.
So yes, for me and my daughter, the HDHP/HSA was cheaper.
Plus, any money leftover in the HSA doesn't have to be used by end of year like an FSA. Not that it was an issue for us as we buy glasses/contacts/etc. But for some, they end up overpaying for things at year end to use up the FSA money that has to be used.
So yes, I can see where an HDHP/HSA is cheaper than other offerings.

 

[GON]

Now I haven't read all the 9 pages of this thread so this may have already been answered, but for someone that rebuilds flooded Mercedes, why aren't you doing this yourself?

Simply thought best for this procedure to have a technician that did this job all day long as the best course of action. Unlike other jobs where one is exposed to the dealer finding other issues doing a job, this procedure is very cut and dry.

As a teenager, I worked next door to a very good body shop. The body shop owner said some of the best auto painters were at earl schieb. He reasoning was the painter at early schieb painted dozens of cars per week, so they became really good at it.

 

[JHZR2]

In the future I would go to a Honda dealership for these routine type services. Much cheaper at Honda. I’ve known a few people with Acuras that had timing belt jobs done as recently as 5 years ago done at the Honda dealership.

Same thing with key fobs. Honda can program Acura fobs.

My brother has an LX450 Lexus badged old school FJ80 Land Cruiser. I was pricing parts at Lexus and Toyota. It’s criminal the markup difference for the same exact part.

No doubt Acura runs the same way.

 

[JHZR2]

Here's a dealer in NJ advertising $749 for the belt/water pump service special.

Honda Service Auto Repair Department - Honda of Freehold

Honda of Freehold service auto repair in Freehold, New Jersey offers certified trained Honda mechanics and great service specials and coupons to all customers in Marlboro and its surrounding cities and suburbs. Please contact us at 844-831-1241.

www.hondaoffreehold.com

Pretty sure @The Critic warned me about those “deals” being pushed by a few competing NJ dealerships. If you want to keep the vehicle and do it right, the job also needs a valve adjustment, new spark plugs, etc.

I’d assume the $749 special includes a new tensioner and all pulleys, and it says it includes a new WP. But who knows what it doesn’t…

 

[The Critic]

Pretty sure @The Critic warned me about those “deals” being pushed by a few competing NJ dealerships. If you want to keep the vehicle and do it right, the job also needs a valve adjustment, new spark plugs, etc.

I’d assume the $749 special includes a new tensioner and all pulleys, and it says it includes a new WP. But who knows what it doesn’t…

That $749 price is timing belt and water pump only.

99% of the time, the hydraulic tensioner is also leaking. Part #14520-RCA-A01, MSRP is $212.35.
Plus it doesn't include the drive belt. Those usually list for $60-$70.

So, the cheapest that anyone will get out of there for is probably $1100.

 

[JHZR2]

This is exactly my point to my other response.

Without numerous publicly reported incidents....it just...."doesn't happen".

Two prime examples of reliability, and it goes much farther than this...but the Ford Panther and the GM Suburban/Tahoe GMT 800/900. How many of these are used for fleet vehicles, timing chains and all? Too many to count. They don't use Odysseys and Siennas, or Land Cruisers.

A Land Cruiser or Camry that sees 250K miles is deemed normal, what about 400K Crown Vics or Suburbans before all these direct injection and 10 speed trannys hit the market.

I agree, American vehicles have taken a small hit with the new regs, but many others have also...alot of uncharted territory.

Let EV supplement other vehicles, and stop with the 35 MPG mandates and EV mandates until we get this figured out.

On topic, I really like Acura/Honda and Toyota, but the service costs are crazy high and I don't feel they are any more cost effective to own than many American vehicles....splitting hairs.

This is very true. Mentioned that my brother bought an FJ80 Land Cruiser. The quality on the ones weve looked at isn’t as good as it’s made out to be. Our previa lasted, but most “Uber quality” Land Cruisers crumbled apart on themselves with any number of stupid issues. As much as I’d like one myself, I find the engineering on those to be subpar compared to my Mercedes diesels. And lots of things that need to be done to hit age and mileage.

And for every one of these high quality Toyotas hitting 250-350k, I suspect there are 10 vics and GM vehicles doing the same, even if crumbling apart the same.

 

[JHZR2]

My buddy is a really smart guy and makes A LOT of money. Those types tend to preserve wealth. So there are a couple of things that puzzle me with his thoughts. He has a family of 5, and gets the cheapest health care, a HSA. He said he has done the math and even with getting services, it's cheaper. Doesn't sound right but I believe him and suspect he doesn't need much for services. Then, my wife got insurance for our family and it blew his theory out of the water. School district had two choices only--HMO, PPO, $0 deductible (remember HSA, HRA, these were invented by insurance cos to defray costs to the employer, not to increase value to the employee--so when available, the HMO or PPO are jacked to a discouraging rate). I felt like it were the year 2000. Her cost is 33% of mine, $0 deductible, for the PPO, and mine has a $1,500 deducible. I can't wait for the first pay in 2023.

The other thing, he traded in a 2017 Odyssey, to avoid the timing belt job. And, said it makes financial sense. I teased him and said isn't it really that you want a 2022?

I bought a 2006 Lexus in 2016. In the 6.5 years that I've had it, I did do that timing belt job for $950 at an indie, but the car has been reliable (it's supposed to be bulletproof). As mentioned, I got a free multipoint in 2016 at the dealer, that said $6,700 needed. I've done none of it. My sneaking suspicion is that's what caused the car to be traded in, allowing me to pick it up. I paid $14k, which is not nothing, but it's not that much for a car that I've had 6.5 years and will have for years to come, imho....my .02

I have a family of 5 and save a good deal on insurance premiums with the HSA/HDHP. So in some cases they do work.

Now selling a car to avoid a $$ repair? Some people don’t care for their cars. Our 2014 looks brand new inside. Others’ stink and are completely ruined. Sounds to me like it was a good rationale to trade up…. And Honda and Toyota vehicles are such poor values in the used car market because they command a premium. Which means this person dumped their vehicle on good terms for them and traded up.

 

[John105]

I have a family of 5 and save a good deal on insurance premiums with the HSA/HDHP. So in some cases they do work.

Now selling a car to avoid a $$ repair? Some people don’t care for their cars. Our 2014 looks brand new inside. Others’ stink and are completely ruined. Sounds to me like it was a good rationale to trade up…. And Honda and Toyota vehicles are such poor values in the used car market because they command a premium. Which means this person dumped their vehicle on good terms for them and traded up.

In my buddy's analysis I get it....he said the HSA costs say $400/mo. the PPO costs $900/mo. He's comparing those figures, which apply to those working for his employer, then saying we need to see a doctor x times, my wife needed a MRI, and I still didn't pay 900x12 out of pocket after the deductible, so I get it. Why his analysis that HSA is best for all?

1. My wife isn't offered one
2. Her PPO with $0 deductible is about $220/mo for the family.

The sham of it all is how much the employer is willing to kick in. If 90% employer and 10% employee, it's still gonna be like my wife's. My employer is 52%--not good.

No lie. My 2007 car still gets compliments. Yet again at the dealer this month.

Not just for cars, but health care, everyone's profile is different. But HSA/HRA was invented to help the employer. Old school employers like my wife's don't even offer it. It was a couple of years ago, someone told me her husband works for the state and she had a $5 copay to see the doctor. I laughed because we were at $30 already.

Oh, btw, the mandatory 401k enrollment, is that to help the employee, or employer? Hint: it ends with an R

I had to laugh--at my last employer, step off the elevators: "You may now contribute up to 50% to your 401k!" Um, there still is an IRS max, but we all know why up to 50%.

 

[John105]

The HDHP/HSA has saved me money. I actually got into a higher tier plan that paid more once I paid my Out of Pocket value.
So the premium was 1/2 of the mid tier plan I had last year. Once I paid my part with pre-tax money, the HDHP had lower co-pays than the mid tier plan I was using.
So yes, for me and my daughter, the HDHP/HSA was cheaper.
Plus, any money leftover in the HSA doesn't have to be used by end of year like an FSA. Not that it was an issue for us as we buy glasses/contacts/etc. But for some, they end up overpaying for things at year end to use up the FSA money that has to be used.
So yes, I can see where an HDHP/HSA is cheaper than other offerings.

What I think it is, and again I'm going into a new plan 1/1/23 through my wife, is that when the HSA works, it is being compared to what else your employer is offering. And you're correct in your facts, I know.

But what if I were to say my wife had 2 choices, PPO, or HMO, that's it. One costs $220/mo, the other $230. $0 deductible. This might be cheaper than your HSA, because the employers have chosen to contribute different % towards the overall cost. In her case, employer picks up 90%, she picks up 10%.

In my case, I don't disbelieve my buddy--I likely could have been better off with a HSA because the PPO is very expensive and we didn't use it all that much. I'm just glad to be off of my employer's plan...when my son broke his leg, I was glad to have a PPO and also a FSA. It softened the blow mentally and financially, but that was likely the only time it made sense to have the PPO.

Back on topic with Acura...my mom paid $140 for a brake flush which I thought was high. But she can't really just shop around indies, she's a senior...so maybe it's 2X what it should be again...

 

[Hall]

So, the cheapest that anyone will get out of there for is probably $1100.

Does "the book" give a rate/time for a full job on a Honda, including belt, water pump, tensioner, etc, etc in addition to rates for doing the individual pieces ?

 

[Hall]

The HDHP/HSA has saved me money. I actually got into a higher tier plan that paid more once I paid my Out of Pocket value.
So the premium was 1/2 of the mid tier plan I had last year. Once I paid my part with pre-tax money, the HDHP had lower co-pays than the mid tier plan I was using.

A couple of years ago, I did a pretty simple comparison / analysis of the plans my wife's job offered. Basically, whether we chose the lower premium plan + higher deductible or higher premium + lower deductible, the amount we'd pay in premiums plus meeting either deductible worked out to be almost the same amount of money. It is all just a shell game that employers (a lot of people don't know this, but your employer chooses the "numbers", not the insurance company) play to make it look like they're offering employees "choices".

 

[John105]

A couple of years ago, I did a pretty simple comparison / analysis of the plans my wife's job offered. Basically, whether we chose the lower premium plan + higher deductible or higher premium + lower deductible, the amount we'd pay in premiums plus meeting either deductible worked out to be almost the same amount of money. It is all just a shell game that employers (a lot of people don't know this, but your employer chooses the "numbers", not the insurance company) play to make it look like they're offering employees "choices".

I totally agree and I believe the analyses....my employer tends to pay a higher salary than the industry, but has lesser benefits. I mean in 2022, some of the benefits are truly creative, free this, free that, etc. And of course, with 18,000 employees, it's not like buying power is lacking. But the plans are all self-funded, as is insurance. When we rent a car for work, and we are encouraged to use it for personal as well, there is no insurance available i.e. CDW. My only thing is I told coworkers, heaven forbid we get into an accident on personal, we have to tell our employer about it.

I guess my point is with my wife's insurance having only 2 choices reminds me of the late 90's early 2000's. Here's your choice--PPO, or HMO. $5/check difference, $0 deductible. That means there's no game--HMO costs more!! I believe it's because the copay is $5 less, and for specialist $10 less, max out of pocket less. But $0 deductible, whereas mine was $1,500. Oh and by the way we're not hiding this fact, we're paying 90% and you're paying 10%, whereas with mine, 52%--that's almost splitting the costs, which imho isn't good. I remember around 2014 I had a friend where his health was free for a family of 6. Then their employer got bought out and they made it $50/check. Employees were enraged, really.

I totally agree with you, and my buddy's analysis--the HSA makes sense based on the pricing he's being offered, and that's completely designed by his employer, who isn't exactly hurting when the founder is worth 30 bil.

by the way on the timing belts lol, wasn't sure if everyone knew what a "kit" looks like, so here's one for my car. The only thing I could see not using, is the cam seals, as that truly IS NOT part of a 90k service.

LEXUS LS430 Aisin World TKT-021 Aisin Timing Belt and Water Pump Kits | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Aisin Timing Belt and Water Pump Kits with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Timing Belt and Water Pump Service Kits at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I never had a car before with a timing belt, so it did seem odd to me to replace a water pump every 90k. But, my wife's GM failed at around 87k and known issue. So makes sense while in there. I asked my indie, are you replacing the thermostat? He said no, it's been our experience that does not fail so we don't arbitrarily spend your money when not needed. But if you want us to, we can. I said ok leave it. It has been 45k now on the job done in 2017, and no issues. It would kill me if the thermostat were replaced, and the temp changed, i.e. needle position...

p.s. this job for me should be given to someone who's done it before, and that's why I believe the specialist is not only 1/2 the price in my case, but more expert than a dealer tech, who's under the gun using the flat rate system to move the car out and go on to the next. Not only in billable hours, but look at tying up a bay when some other car is waiting to get in, aka opportunity cost. Dealer scenario to me isn't a win for the customer.


p.p.s. I changed two idlers on the serpentine side due to a noise not attributable to the belt itself, so I can see that bearings do wear, which is why imho all of the components must be replaced in a timing belt job, not just the belt...it turned out to be the larger idler, smaller was fine, and I had to buy the part off of the tensioner and remove it. Because the tensioner itself cannot be replaced without opening the engine up. But it was actually cheaper to buy the tensioner which had the idler, than the idler alone. Seen this before on a light housing for a porsche where only the lense was needed, cheaper to buy the entire housing which had the lense as well, not the lense alone...

 

[HowAboutThis]

You really think those are cheaper? Might want to check again.

The established indy shops (10+ bay ones) are as expensive as the dealership, if not more. IME that is true 90% of the time and is because economies of scale are not in their favor.

This is what I've often found. The Subaru and Toyota dealers are often cheaper than independent shops. Or, about the same (negligible difference). About the only place you'll find a real difference in price is if you bring it to a nationally branded auto chain. The last independent I went to was a bit cheaper on a transmission flush on an older Subaru. And since it was older and we were selling it soon I went there. If I were keeping it, I'd pass on the aftermarket parts and go OE for about the same price. But shop around cause sometimes certain services are inflated randomly.

 

[tbm5690]

When we rent a car for work, and we are encouraged to use it for personal as well, there is no insurance available i.e. CDW. My only thing is I told coworkers, heaven forbid we get into an accident on personal, we have to tell our employer about it.

My employer has a separate discount codes for leisure and business rentals...both are covered under the rental company insurance per employer agreement. On top of that most travel credit cards offer at least secondary coverage, and many primary (like mine) so it really doesn't matter anyways.

I guess my point is with my wife's insurance having only 2 choices reminds me of the late 90's early 2000's. Here's your choice--PPO, or HMO. $5/check difference, $0 deductible. That means there's no game--HMO costs more!! I believe it's because the copay is $5 less, and for specialist $10 less, max out of pocket less. But $0 deductible, whereas mine was $1,500. Oh and by the way we're not hiding this fact, we're paying 90% and you're paying 10%, whereas with mine, 52%--that's almost splitting the costs, which imho isn't good. I remember around 2014 I had a friend where his health was free for a family of 6. Then their employer got bought out and they made it $50/check. Employees were enraged, really.

I totally agree with you, and my buddy's analysis--the HSA makes sense based on the pricing he's being offered, and that's completely designed by his employer, who isn't exactly hurting when the founder is worth 30 bil.

I don't have a choice at work but it doesn't matter as I'm on a family PPO where premiums are covered 100% by employer. If I had more traditional offerings I would choose the HSA all day long...my wife and I are young and healthy. Anything medically can happen to anyone at any time so of course a HDHP or HSA can always be a dice roll but by and large the people who it doesn't work for are the ones who aren't healthy...the same ones who drive up the price on the PPOs. Some issues come with age, other genetic, but many due to poor health choices in life.