Windmills = jobs lost

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
And offer a link


Yeah, that's funny.

He said:
"I think the rise in alternative energy has and would put those energy monopoly in check, so that their pricing power is reduced, and make these non-renewable energy more affordable."

Quote:
The latest Spain Oil & Gas Report from BMI forecasts that the country will account for 12.21% ofdeveloped European regional oil demand by 2013, while making no appreciable contribution to supply. InDeveloped Europe, overall oil consumption reached an estimated 13.75mn barrels per day (b/d) in 2008.It is set to rise to around 14.04mn b/d by 2013. Developed Europe regional oil production was 6.97mn b/din 2001, and in 2008 averaged an estimated 5.00mn b/d. It is set to fall to just 3.80mn b/d by 2013. Oilimports are growing steadily, because supply is contracting and demand is rising, albeit slowly. In 2008,net crude imports were an estimated 8.75mn b/d. By 2013, they are expected to have reached 10.24mnb/d.

In terms of natural gas, the Developed Europe region in 2008 consumed an estimated 440bn cubic metres(bcm), with demand of 490bcm targeted for 2013, representing 11.2% growth. Production of an estimated269bcm in 2007 should rise to 279bcm in 2013, which implies net imports rising from the estimated 2008level of 171bcm to some 211bcm by the end of the period. Spain's share of gas consumption in 2008 wasan estimated 8.37%, while it has no meaningful share of production. By 2013, its share of gasconsumption is forecast to be 10.07%.

Between 2007 and 2018, we are forecasting an increase in Spanish oil and gas liquids consumption of7.7%, with volumes rising steadily from an estimated 1.62mn b/d in 2008 to 1.85mn b/d by the end of the10-year forecast period. Gas demand should rise from the estimated 2008 level of 37bcm to 59bcm by2018, based on LNG and pipeline imports.

http://www.mindbranch.com/Spain-Oil-Gas-R302-6006/
So in spite of a huge investment in "green" energy sources, their use of oil and natural gas continues to go up. As noted in the original article, energy prices in Spain are very high and is forcing business to look to other countries. How is greater unemployment good for their people?

So it's pretty obvious "green" power sources do NOT lower prices for energy.

Is that a sufficient link?

 

[Shannow]

Well how can they put nukes out of business ?

Surely, the windmills making power more expensive only increases the ability of nukes to generate revenue.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Surely, the windmills making power more expensive only increases the ability of nukes to generate revenue.

Subsidies. And if you read the original article that I posted about this issue, they talk about this.

 

[Shannow]

Well how is Spain's energy becoming so expensive that everybody is leaving.

So let me get this right.

Subsidised wind is making power too cheap for nukes to compete, but too expensive for business ?

 

[Gary Allan]

What's not being integrated ..or not expressed ..is that if you tax your energy to the point of being too expensive to manufacturer, your manufacturing will leave. Fine and good.

This is a far cry from subsidizing renewable energy, with taxes, to keep conventional energy in check.

Quote:
So in spite of a huge investment in "green" energy sources, their use of oil and natural gas continues to go up.


This assumes that the overall demand for energy is ..wait a minute ..it makes one of two flawed assumptions with the assertion/conclusion.

If the growth is due to changing over from oil to NG or LPG ..then it's merely a shift from imported to domestic production. No "green" to it. Price alone will do that ..and it will change when domestic sources get taxed (as in burdened with demand).

It can also be a product of total growth in demand for energy PERIOD. Just like we're not a population of 225M like we were in 1980 ..we've got tons more cars on the road ..millions more housing units ..and multi-millions more people.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Well how is Spain's energy becoming so expensive that everybody is leaving.

So let me get this right.

Subsidised wind is making power too cheap for nukes to compete, but too expensive for business ?


Directly from my first post:
Quote:
In Spain, where wind turbines provided 11 percent of power demand last year, generators earn rates as much as 11 times more for renewable energy compared with burning fossil fuels.

 

[Shannow]

Directly from another post in this very thread.
Quote:
So without contributing any reliable capacity, wind will nonetheless make nuclear, by far our most practical and reliable form of zero carbon energy, less profitable. Existing plants will be caught in a trap and new construction will be discouraged entirely. Already the British Nuclear Group is complaining that it can’t build any new reactors if they have to compete against subsidized wind farms. Anti-nuclear activists are turning handsprings, claiming joyously that wind is finally replacing nuclear. But that’s not what’s happening. Instead, nothing will be replacing existing capacity–namely, the coal burning plants that are one of the largest sources of carbon emissions–as demand increases in years ahead. That means carbon emissions won’t be meaningfully reduced, since coal plants will have to stay on line to provide backup.


So you've both said that wind drives prices up, forcing industry to leave Spain, and drives nukes out of business.

That's a most impressive feat for a bunch of useless inanimate objects.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


So you've both said that wind drives prices up, forcing industry to leave Spain, and drives nukes out of business.

That's a most impressive feat for a bunch of useless inanimate objects.


Windmills in Spain have always been problematic. Look at all the grief they caused poor old Don Quixote.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

So you've both said that wind drives prices up, forcing industry to leave Spain, and drives nukes out of business.

That's a most impressive feat for a bunch of useless inanimate objects.

You are assuming a fair playing field AND that you are talking about the same country.

Spain is doing everything it can to kill the nuclear industry.
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/spain-adios-nuclear-31-06-06

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-...t-nuclear-power

 

[Tempest]

As for the US:
Quote:
For electricity generation, the EIA concludes that solar energy is subsidized to the tune of $24.34 per megawatt hour, wind $23.37 and "clean coal" $29.81. By contrast, normal coal receives 44 cents, natural gas a mere quarter, hydroelectric about 67 cents and nuclear power $1.59.

The wind and solar lobbies are currently moaning that they don't get their fair share of the subsidy pie. They also argue that subsidies per unit of energy are always higher at an early stage of development, before innovation makes large-scale production possible. But wind and solar have been on the subsidy take for years, and they still account for less than 1% of total net electricity generation. Would it make any difference if the federal subsidy for wind were $50 per megawatt hour, or even $100? Almost certainly not without a technological breakthrough.

By contrast, nuclear power provides 20% of U.S. base electricity production, yet it is subsidized about 15 times less than wind. We prefer an energy policy that lets markets determine which energy source dominates. But if you believe in subsidies, then nuclear power gets a lot more power for the buck than other "alternatives."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121055427930584069.html

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Spain ranks third in the world for wind power, behind only Germany, at nearly 24,000 megawatts of capacity, and the United States, at No. 1, with over 25,000 megawatts.

But there’s a cost. Wind power has grown in Spain only because of the size of the subsidies involved. The case is the same for solar power.

For wind power, the subsidy consists of the market price (regulated by the government with the added requirement that the energy companies must buy wind power) plus 90% of the market price for a period of fifteen years, at which time it drops to 80%. In the case of solar power, the subsidy is 575% of the market price for twenty five years, when it falls to 460% above market.

Annually, the government-underwritten wind-power contracts are costing approximately €28.6 billion. It isn’t surprising that such levels of subsidies have led to the creation of overcapacity. The government’s 2008 target for growth in installed capacity for renewable power - 371 megawatts - actually turned into 2,934 megawatts . The Spanish government has since capped growth.

Quote:
It is inevitable that these developments, which guarantee return on investment to wind power and solar companies of between 12 and 20% for up to 20 years, will increase energy costs and enlarge the number of people who experience energy poverty. It will also lead to companies being taxed more to pay for this scheme – estimates are that new green taxes cost Spanish companies some €15 billion in direct and indirect taxes over the last five years, some 35 times more than the original government estimate of €85 million.

http://www.troymedia.com/NewsBeats/Environment_News_Beat/2009/03/TMV032909.htm

 

[Gary Allan]

Your point?

You should be capitalizing on the cash cow that wind and solar represent.

btw, I think that much of solar is a tax credit scam, something you should be very supportive of. Tax exemption/credits ..and redistributed costs.

I'd think you would be all for it.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Shannow


So you've both said that wind drives prices up, forcing industry to leave Spain, and drives nukes out of business.

That's a most impressive feat for a bunch of useless inanimate objects.


Windmills in Spain have always been problematic. Look at all the grief they caused poor old Don Quixote.


Quixote has contemporary company. Pity us squires if such a master does become

 

[Win]

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aID=115264.54928.127402&cID=d

"LM Glasfiber of Denmark is cutting production at its Little Rock wind turbine manufacturing plant, resulting in 80 layoffs, according to a company release issued Monday. The cuts come as orders have slowed due to the economy."

 

[BrianWC]

Went to windfarm while on vacation last week. Noise does not seem to be horrible. Just sounds like a prop plane flying over at a decent altitude. A crew was assembling a new windmill while we where there. As they finished for the day, the crane operator spotted us in the distance and drove over. He invited us to come up and see the new windmill up close so we could see the true size of the components on the ground. I posed for a pic against one of the props and got a giant glob of grease on the back of my shirt.

All in all, a really cool experience. Immediately thought of this topic!

 

[unDummy]

Anything subsidized or centralized is bad!

I like windmills. But, I don't want big energy or the politicians sticking their fingers into the batter.

The wind turbines should be located where the 'usage' is. Wrap the cities in them. Surround the factories with them. The windmills proposed in Cape Cod would just about power the Cape.

I'm against the "not in my backyard" and "must build huge solar/wind farms" attitudes. Every roof top should be covered in solar panels. Every neighborhood block should have their own wind turbine for power.

Hiding power production so that no one sees it is foolish. When you see it and dislike it, you will adapt your lifestyle to do without it.

 

[BrianWC]

I believe Denmark has such an initiative with wind. Don't know if it was discussed or not. Lost track of this thread while I was on vacation.

I like the localized power idea, but I don't think we should be disconnected from the "grid." What happens when the wind doesn't blow or the sun doesn't shine?

 

[Win]

I like the idea of alternate energy.

Unfortunately, the cost / watt for most residential type alternate energy production is pretty high.

I've been toying with taking my ham shack off the grid and was looking at these toy windmill generators:

http://sunforceproducts.com/english/results.asp?catid=15

Even the little 400 watt one is generally over $550, and that's just for the power source. Solar cells are also very expensive on a cost / watt basis.

I'm also not crazy about either putting out DC; I'd rather have AC output that I could rectify where I plan on storing the energy.

I could kludge something together a lot cheaper, but then it would look kludged together.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
but then it would look kludged together

Just tell your neighbors that you are saving the planet. That way they won't care about the rickety 100' wind machine in your back yard.

 

[labman]

How about an alternator out of a junkyard with blades added to it? How big of blades would you need to generate 50 amps?