Windmills = jobs lost

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think wasting money on economically unviable technology is a waste of resources. The technology IS advancing everyday, so why should we sink trillions into tens of thousands of early tech wind mills when there is a much cheaper energy source?


When will it be the right time? When wars are fought over the remaining reserves? The cycles of change are happening very quickly now. I don't think there can be adequate planning for something 10 years out.

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Should we not use it while improving other technology?



Who is "we"? Look at fossil fuels that "we" currently have and don't use (assuming that can be done) as a strategic speculative reserve for economies that are too stupid or ill managed to prepare for the end of reliable fossil fuel supplies. Those supplies/reserves WILL be used. How long they last will be the variable.

You're also under the assumption that the market will adequately cope with "demand" as that curve takes a sharp upturn.

Now if you just want to say, "I don't care about the consequences. I want supply and demand to cope with all things ..regardless of outcomes ..good ..bad..tragic ..avoidable..whatever" ..then just state it like that and all is fine and good. If you even entertain the notion that we "might" be able to cope with the future, then I think your allegiance to and faith in "the market" is ill placed


There will be an end to the open ended economic consumption cycle. Those who have the highest level of development in conservation technologies will be the holders of the future holy grails.

I think you radically underestimate the collisions of so many exponential curves in one short span of time. A single "tragedy of the commons" in a world of under a billion is one thing. They just do without it and work a way around it if they're going to turn into a world population of 2 billion. The relative cost, regulated by "the market", hasn't slowed population growth, even though it gets more and more expensive to sustain it. The only measures that appear to slow it is industrialization, which, in turn, creates a more energy intensive scenario for those within it.

It's the trap of Universal Law (GOD'S Law, in my case). No solutions ..just exchanges of problems. You don't get anything cheaper. You just push the bill (consequences) out into the future.


Economic viability is a speculative human concept. In the vacuum of sensibility ..all any machine need do is produce more work than it took to create it over its lifespan. When you apply economics to it, coupled with free energy (outside of just the recovery costs), you get odd side effects. You get a $99 energy hog air conditioner that's replaced every year or two as opposed to a $600 one that is more efficient and lasting a decade.

Survival of the fittest for one environment doesn't mean that it will lead to "better" in all environments. That gets us back to determining or getting a grip on your basic concepts of "viability"

Would you sell passage for lemmings to the sea if it meant that your success, knowingly, depleted lemmings to the point that you couldn't make a living off of it? That is, the enterprise itself is doomed from the get go. How much wisdom is applied there?

How did Danny Devito put it in "Other People's Money"?

At one time buggy whips were in demand and the I'm sure that the last buggy whip factory made the best buggy whip. The last thing you want is to have an increasing share of a declining market. Slow and steady ..down the drain...

..and that was a testimony to the hard rules of your number one tenet of life, Capitalism.

Hence, in the 21st Century, I'd say that the wisest will be investing in the future ..and not in buggy whips.
 
Gary,
You are right that we need to invest in the future, but to do a 180 on a dime energy wise at this time may further run this country into the financial abyss that we can't recover from.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
80 to 200 years is really far reaching thinking for a species which has been here for thousands (if not 10s of thousands) of years.

Full steam ahead, and bedamned at the consequences, as the market will fix it.

crackmeup2.gif

We've only had the power that we are talking about for 100 years!

Think of the changes that have occurred in the last 200 years! And yet you call it "only" 200 years?? The market is what gave us the technology that we have today...including electricity.
 
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In the case of those Countries already using wind and solar power one must remember that it is an emerging source. Its efficiency will only get better

Exactly as I stated. But in the mean time they sunk VAST amounts of their economic resources into admittedly inefficient power generators. This type of thing will eventually come back to bite you on the behind:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/world/europe/09europe.html?hp
 
Tempest,
look at the rate of increase of energy consumption, and the freebies that certain energy sources (oil, wars etc.) are getting.

tig1 refers to turning energy policy "on a dime".

Look at the curve, the fact that fossil fuels are finite, the fact that we got to here, exponentially, and in 100 years.

How sharp is the turn going to be when the market finally reacts ?

Some people are going to get VERY rich at the absolute expense of everyone else.

I guess that's the market.

(BTW, no comments on the GTs flattening the market in Oz ?)
 
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(BTW, no comments on the GTs flattening the market in Oz ?)

Haven't had a chance to look at them yet. Might get a chance tomorrow.

The entire industrial revolution has occurred within the last ~160 years so I just thought it funny that you refer to 200 years as "only". And it only happened after the idea of individual freedom was entrenched.

Will someone get rich off of new technology? Sure they will and there is nothing wrong with that. It's a motivation to put out new things.

Look at all the money that came from computers and the Internet. I guess they are evil for getting rich at the expense of all others. And gov. has VERY poor record at new energy.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Gary,
You are right that we need to invest in the future, but to do a 180 on a dime energy wise at this time may further run this country into the financial abyss that we can't recover from.


What 180? We're the consumer of the lion's share of global resources and we're only 5% of the global population. Do the math.
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If you have read any data from even the undisputed consumption based demographers, you're looking at 9B people on the planet in the not too distant future.

Again, do the math. It's already too late to start spending BIG on Mr. Fusion or whatever process is going to sustain us ..IF IT EVEN EXISTS. While Daddywarbucks children have gotten lazy ..and just figured out how to make money, the planet is going to have a few issues to deal with that are going to be pretty demanding.

Suppose the market fails to remedy this? How did the market do with the Yankee whaling industry? The Atlantic Cod? The South American rain forest? How many whalers and fishermen just said "Let's not pull a 180 here"??


Naturally, you can always wait until you're falling off a cliff to worry about a parachute or safety nets.

We're aiming for one as a preferred course.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
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(BTW, no comments on the GTs flattening the market in Oz ?)

Haven't had a chance to look at them yet. Might get a chance tomorrow.

And it only happened after the idea of individual freedom was entrenched.

Will someone get rich off of new technology? Sure they will and there is nothing wrong with that. It's a motivation to put out new things.

Look at all the money that came from computers and the Internet.


Here's where you've got some minor conspicuous flaws in just about any arguement you put forth.

Wealth, and (especially) your concept of freedom (correction, pal, we have "assured liberties" that we are granted for surrendering our freedom) ....has NO ASSURED FUNCTIONALITY. It need not include WISDOM.

Your concepts are formed in a history that was rich in untapped resources with much of it a new frontier.

You're in a box. Live with it.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Do you have an article? I'd like to read more.


May 2007 versus May 2009
http://www.nemweb.com.au/mms.GRAPHS/data/DATA200705_NSW1.csv
http://www.nemweb.com.au/mms.GRAPHS/data/DATA200905_NSW1.csv

More load, price almost halved.

Only new players entering the market are Gas turbines, and a couple MW of wind/solar etc.

I didn't do a full line by line examination but the loads do not appear greatly different.

I'm not sure of the point you are making.
 
My original point, remember.

I stated that Gas Turbines were reducing the profitability of baseload plants.

You asked (as usual) for a link.

That's it...same(ish) load, halved wholesale price.
 
If you have more supply with about the same demand then cost should go down. This will be true whether you get more supply from wind or gas.

I don't believe gas turbines are at the whim of the wind and as such they are more reliable for probably a lower price.

I'd rather burn coal for power but with tightened emission standards, more and more gas will be burned for electricity.
 
Your premise was that wind was destroying th viability of nukes.

The same wind that you claim will never produce meaningful amounts of useful power.
 
If they produce some level of base load (pick a %), that takes money away from reliable sources and makes them less economically viable. It's really that simple.

I want reliable power.

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The same wind that you claim will never produce meaningful amounts of useful power.

If you have gov. subsidizing or directly buying windmills then you can indeed have significant amounts of wind power...at poor cost/output as Europe is finding out..
 
Coal and nuke don't get free kicks ?

i.e the ability to pollute, burn air, and evaporate massive quantities of water ?
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Samilcar
I agree. With all white towers and blades set against a backdrop of rolling green hills, I find wind farms quite pleasant to look at.


Would you want to see them for hundreds and hundreds of miles?


Yes.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
I'd rather burn coal for power but with tightened emission standards, more and more gas will be burned for electricity.


Let's propose to the state government of NV that Tempest volunteered his home for a micro coal fire plant.

Right.

You forgot that Coal and Oil price is not set by the market, ever was, and never will. OPEC controls the supply in a monopoly and the countering of that monopoly is a couple war in the ME that we started, to teach the oil producer a lesson, a couple protection of genocide in Darfur by the Chinese, a couple invasion of Russian army into its neighbor to teach them a lesson, a tyrant in Iran that will dare to build a nuke and double dare us with its oil supply.

Alternative energy will never be as cheap as something that is dug from the ground, and sold by a monopoly for multiple times the cost. The price will always be set to slightly lower than alternative energy that convince people like Tempest, that it is impractical to invest in alternative energy and lower its cost.

I think the rise in alternative energy has and would put those energy monopoly in check, so that their pricing power is reduced, and make these non-renewable energy more affordable. Look at what happen to the oil price when we stop using as much? It tanked.
 
OPEC controls ~40% of the worlds oil.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&refer=home&sid=aPLxqeukHEC8

That is a serious player and can affect prices due to market share, but that is not a monopoly. OPEC does not control coal prices. The US has ~ 200 year supply of domestic coal.
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The price will always be set to slightly lower than alternative energy that convince people like Tempest, that it is impractical to invest in alternative energy and lower its cost.

Do you have a car that uses gas or something else?
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I think the rise in alternative energy has and would put those energy monopoly in check, so that their pricing power is reduced, and make these non-renewable energy more affordable.

This makes no sense.
 
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This makes no sense.


Sure it does. The aluminum industry voluntarily lowered the price of aluminum when steel cans started showing up as a viable alternative. Re-processing the aluminum was cheaper than steel cans. They lowered their price to continue to lock out the competition.

..by the way, it would help if you explain why it makes no sense.
 
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