Wind Power
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JHZR2
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
And folks think that group III synthetic oil at $5/qt is bad... just wait until the turbines are paid off and the utilities are charging same old prices for free energy...
JMH
This is why I don't have Cable TV...
Supposedly the big expense in the early years was amortizing the cost of stringing all that cable...
Ditto!!!! I refuse to pay ever higher rates for comcast to put up a huge skyscraper in Philadelphia and charge me to watch commercials and subsidize channels that I do not watch.
JMH
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
And folks think that group III synthetic oil at $5/qt is bad... just wait until the turbines are paid off and the utilities are charging same old prices for free energy...
JMH
This is why I don't have Cable TV...
Supposedly the big expense in the early years was amortizing the cost of stringing all that cable...
Ditto!!!! I refuse to pay ever higher rates for comcast to put up a huge skyscraper in Philadelphia and charge me to watch commercials and subsidize channels that I do not watch.
JMH
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, Al ...I'm sorry ..but you need to move to PECO country to see the most convoluted deregulation on the planet.
How can this be, Al?
I know all about PECO. Been there done that. But again the fault is the same PUC that you have.
Well, Al ...I'm sorry ..but you need to move to PECO country to see the most convoluted deregulation on the planet.
How can this be, Al?
I know all about PECO. Been there done that. But again the fault is the same PUC that you have.
here's another form of Wind power
http://www.turnertoys.com/G1/balsa_model_airplanes3.htm
http://www.turnertoys.com/G1/balsa_model_airplanes3.htm
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Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, Al ...I'm sorry ..but you need to move to PECO country to see the most convoluted deregulation on the planet.
How can this be, Al?
I know all about PECO. Been there done that. But again the fault is the same PUC that you have.
Here's my bill on the garage apartment's service:
Off peak (interruptible) service
Customer charge:
$4.65
Generation charge:
134kwh @ $0.02120
$2.84
Transmission charges:
134kwh @ $0.00050
$0.07
Distribution charges:
134kwh @ $0.03700
$4.96
"Transition" charges:
134kwh @ $0.00420
$0.56
State tax adustment:
-$0.22
Total costs for off peak service:
$12.36/134kwh =$0.0959/kwh
Total costs to cost of power ratio:
4.53:1
24/7 Residential
Customer charge:
$5.18
Generation charges:
180 @ $0.06590
$11.86
Transmission charge:
180kwh @ $0.00550
$0.99
Distribution charges:
180kwh @ $0.04760
$8.57
Transistion charges:
$5.31
State tax adjustment
-$0.43
Total charges:
$31.48
31.48/180kwh = $0.1749/kwh ratio of total costs to the price of provide power 2.65:1
MY BILL
OFF PEAK
Customer charge:
$4.65
Generation charge:
687 @ 0.02120
$14.36
Transmission:
687 @ 0.00050
$0.34
Distribution
687 @ 0.03700
$25.42
Transition
687 @ 0.0042
Tas adjustment:
-0.71
Total $$ for 687kwh of interruptible service
$47.15 = $0.0686/kwh
Total charges/power cost = 3.238
Residential service
Customer charge:
$5.18
Generation:
471 @ 0.0659
$31.04
Transmission
471 @ 0.00550
$2.59
Distribution:
471 @ 0.047600
$22.42
Transition:
471@ 0.029
$13.89
tax adjustment:
-0.94
Total
$74.18 for 471kwh or $0.157/kwh
ratio 2.388
This is power, delivered to the same meter pan ..by the same service cable ..over the same distribution system ..to the same customer. The only difference is "creative billing".
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, Al ...I'm sorry ..but you need to move to PECO country to see the most convoluted deregulation on the planet.
How can this be, Al?
I know all about PECO. Been there done that. But again the fault is the same PUC that you have.
Here's my bill on the garage apartment's service:
Off peak (interruptible) service
Customer charge:
$4.65
Generation charge:
134kwh @ $0.02120
$2.84
Transmission charges:
134kwh @ $0.00050
$0.07
Distribution charges:
134kwh @ $0.03700
$4.96
"Transition" charges:
134kwh @ $0.00420
$0.56
State tax adustment:
-$0.22
Total costs for off peak service:
$12.36/134kwh =$0.0959/kwh
Total costs to cost of power ratio:
4.53:1
24/7 Residential
Customer charge:
$5.18
Generation charges:
180 @ $0.06590
$11.86
Transmission charge:
180kwh @ $0.00550
$0.99
Distribution charges:
180kwh @ $0.04760
$8.57
Transistion charges:
$5.31
State tax adjustment
-$0.43
Total charges:
$31.48
31.48/180kwh = $0.1749/kwh ratio of total costs to the price of provide power 2.65:1
MY BILL
OFF PEAK
Customer charge:
$4.65
Generation charge:
687 @ 0.02120
$14.36
Transmission:
687 @ 0.00050
$0.34
Distribution
687 @ 0.03700
$25.42
Transition
687 @ 0.0042
Tas adjustment:
-0.71
Total $$ for 687kwh of interruptible service
$47.15 = $0.0686/kwh
Total charges/power cost = 3.238
Residential service
Customer charge:
$5.18
Generation:
471 @ 0.0659
$31.04
Transmission
471 @ 0.00550
$2.59
Distribution:
471 @ 0.047600
$22.42
Transition:
471@ 0.029
$13.89
tax adjustment:
-0.94
Total
$74.18 for 471kwh or $0.157/kwh
ratio 2.388
This is power, delivered to the same meter pan ..by the same service cable ..over the same distribution system ..to the same customer. The only difference is "creative billing".
I guess your point Garry is that the Transmission charge is more than the 'cost' of Generation? In reality the "cost" of the electricity delivered is the Generation + Transmission charge. In the old days there was no such breakdown. I would guess 30 years ago the Transmission to Generation would have been much larger than these. These items are broken down bc its a requirement. Its rather meaningless IMHO.
Its like saying that the "Raising Cost" of Grapes you buy in the store are the growers cost....which is probably about 25 cents a pound. And that's small compared to the costs from the time they are picked to the moment you pay for them. Again..meaningless numbers.
Its like saying that the "Raising Cost" of Grapes you buy in the store are the growers cost....which is probably about 25 cents a pound. And that's small compared to the costs from the time they are picked to the moment you pay for them. Again..meaningless numbers.
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Al ..compare the bill to yours. Does PECO have higher costs than PP&L or MetEd in doing like acts?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Al ..compare the bill to yours. Does PECO have higher costs than PP&L or MetEd in doing like acts?
KW =1647
Cost = $163
Generation = $82
Distribution = $50
Transmission = $12
Transistion = $17
So "Generation" is say .5
Thats's about it Gary
Al ..compare the bill to yours. Does PECO have higher costs than PP&L or MetEd in doing like acts?
KW =1647
Cost = $163
Generation = $82
Distribution = $50
Transmission = $12
Transistion = $17
So "Generation" is say .5
Thats's about it Gary
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Okay ..but you're paying $0.10/kwh NET (1647kwh/$163.00)
I'm paying $0.157/kwh NET for normal service.
150% of what you are. So, I'm just imagining getting boned more than I should be. I see
PECO is just up there with the all time Hollywood accounting queens ..that's all.
I'm paying $0.157/kwh NET for normal service.
150% of what you are. So, I'm just imagining getting boned more than I should be. I see
PECO is just up there with the all time Hollywood accounting queens ..that's all.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
150% of what you are. So, I'm just imagining getting boned more than I should be. I see
PECO is just up there with the all time Hollywood accounting queens ..that's all.
PECO is a poorly run Utility..I'll grant you that. I don't think their accounting is screwing you..Its their inefficiencies + they have a service area with many more little customers and a really really lot of residence feeds and higher cost area.
150% of what you are. So, I'm just imagining getting boned more than I should be. I see
PECO is just up there with the all time Hollywood accounting queens ..that's all.
PECO is a poorly run Utility..I'll grant you that. I don't think their accounting is screwing you..Its their inefficiencies + they have a service area with many more little customers and a really really lot of residence feeds and higher cost area.
It is meaningful if you are making your own power. Your generation cost can be much higher than the utility's, if you can save on the distribution costs.
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I can't beat the full time residential rate producing it myself. But I can sure endure the limited time that they're allowed to shut off my interruptible service. Now that our usage is down, I doubt that I can make the capital outlay work in recovered/avoided costs.
Now, knowing how PECO/Excellon has lied to the PUC to configure their profitable loser, if I co-gen, and sell my excess back to them, that I'll have to pay some producer access charge that will be a net lose to me.
Now, knowing how PECO/Excellon has lied to the PUC to configure their profitable loser, if I co-gen, and sell my excess back to them, that I'll have to pay some producer access charge that will be a net lose to me.
Here, there's a subsidy for small producers with the "net metering" program, that allows you to sell back and get credited at the average rate you pay, regardless of the actual price at the time you are producing. If you're big, you get paid the wholesale rate on power fed into the grid at the time you generate. But there are exceptions, like this
http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/sop/
http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/sop/
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Here it works the same way too ..sorta. You pay the net on power consumed. The new meters work both ways (or so I'm told). Before you had to have two meters. One incoming and the other for outgoing power. You paid the difference. Now if you exceeded your draw you got paid ..but I dunno how much. I imagine it was marginal at best. Now I wonder if I can back charge distribution, transmission and "transition" costs to PECO.
The small producers probably do get credited for distr costs, since all their power gets absorbed in their immediate area. But that should depend on time of day. Making power at 3 am isn't as useful as making power at 6pm.
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Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
150% of what you are. So, I'm just imagining getting boned more than I should be. I see
PECO is just up there with the all time Hollywood accounting queens ..that's all.
PECO is a poorly run Utility..I'll grant you that. I don't think their accounting is screwing you..Its their inefficiencies + they have a service area with many more little customers and a really really lot of residence feeds and higher cost area.
I don't think that's the case at all, Al. They've managed to configure all roads leading to a 12%ROI regardless of how you mix it up and how much they waste.
For example: Just about everyone else ..all other utilities ..use "time of day metering". The customer pays premium prices for premium power and pays cheaper prices for power consumed at more favorable load times. Peco doesn't do this. You're either subsidizing the entire utility for 15hours per day in the summer and 19.5 hours a day in the remaining 9 months since the only other option is to use interruptible service. The customer must pay for the installation of a dual meter pan and a dedicated load panel. The meter has a radio controlled sandwich solenoid that cuts power (at their option) between 4pm - 7:45pm during the 9month period and 1pm-9pm during the summer. This is where they can put that demand on the grid. Hence, those who don't elect to allow themselves to be taken off the service are paying twice the cost 24/7/365.
This is an exceptional way to configure a WIN:WIN situation at the consumer's expense. Cable companies, phone companies, and other utilities aren't called honeybuckets for no good reason. Peco has just refined the art of Hollywood accounting and PUC manipulation. Every attempt to make them "play fair" has been circumvented with unfailing success.
My borough wanted cheaper power for their water plant. Peco sent 11 suits to the meeting giving them advice on how to save electricity. MetEd offered such a discount that it made sense to run $400k of lines to MetEd's distribution. MetEd rebated $50k a year as long as the borough bought from them. The thing was, MetEd, due to the regulations in place at the time, wasn't actually producing the power due to having to buy it at or below their avoided costs ...which meant that PECO was providing the power that they resold to our borough at a discount.
Poorly run? Shrewd and convoluted with a pompous arrogance, if you ask me. Robbing in plain sight and rationally justifying it ..and having so much engineered "fog" that the PUC signs off on it.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
150% of what you are. So, I'm just imagining getting boned more than I should be. I see
PECO is just up there with the all time Hollywood accounting queens ..that's all.
PECO is a poorly run Utility..I'll grant you that. I don't think their accounting is screwing you..Its their inefficiencies + they have a service area with many more little customers and a really really lot of residence feeds and higher cost area.
I don't think that's the case at all, Al. They've managed to configure all roads leading to a 12%ROI regardless of how you mix it up and how much they waste.
For example: Just about everyone else ..all other utilities ..use "time of day metering". The customer pays premium prices for premium power and pays cheaper prices for power consumed at more favorable load times. Peco doesn't do this. You're either subsidizing the entire utility for 15hours per day in the summer and 19.5 hours a day in the remaining 9 months since the only other option is to use interruptible service. The customer must pay for the installation of a dual meter pan and a dedicated load panel. The meter has a radio controlled sandwich solenoid that cuts power (at their option) between 4pm - 7:45pm during the 9month period and 1pm-9pm during the summer. This is where they can put that demand on the grid. Hence, those who don't elect to allow themselves to be taken off the service are paying twice the cost 24/7/365.
This is an exceptional way to configure a WIN:WIN situation at the consumer's expense. Cable companies, phone companies, and other utilities aren't called honeybuckets for no good reason. Peco has just refined the art of Hollywood accounting and PUC manipulation. Every attempt to make them "play fair" has been circumvented with unfailing success.
My borough wanted cheaper power for their water plant. Peco sent 11 suits to the meeting giving them advice on how to save electricity. MetEd offered such a discount that it made sense to run $400k of lines to MetEd's distribution. MetEd rebated $50k a year as long as the borough bought from them. The thing was, MetEd, due to the regulations in place at the time, wasn't actually producing the power due to having to buy it at or below their avoided costs ...which meant that PECO was providing the power that they resold to our borough at a discount.
Poorly run? Shrewd and convoluted with a pompous arrogance, if you ask me. Robbing in plain sight and rationally justifying it ..and having so much engineered "fog" that the PUC signs off on it.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Poorly run? Shrewd and convoluted with a pompous arrogance,
Well Gary I am not denying the manipulative nature of the utility. I don't want to go into depth. But I had occasions to visit a number of their facilities. Lets put it this way...They are not very efficient in the manner in which they operate their facilities. Therefore I suppose they need to bilk the customer for the extra cash.
PPL is a model of efficiency.(IMHO)
Poorly run? Shrewd and convoluted with a pompous arrogance,
Well Gary I am not denying the manipulative nature of the utility. I don't want to go into depth. But I had occasions to visit a number of their facilities. Lets put it this way...They are not very efficient in the manner in which they operate their facilities. Therefore I suppose they need to bilk the customer for the extra cash.
PPL is a model of efficiency.(IMHO)
Last edited:
Gov Report
http://www.awea.org/newsroom/releases/20percent_Wind_Report_12May2008.html
"The groundbreaking report, 20% Wind Energy by 2030: Increasing Wind Energy’s Contribution to U.S. Electricity Supply, looks closely at one scenario for reaching 20% wind energy by 2030 and contrasts it to a scenario of no new U.S. wind power capacity."
http://www.awea.org/projects/
Givesw you an idea where windpower is in the U.S.
Pretty amazing that the solution to our energy problems is right now blowing maple tree helicopters into my spouting as I am wtriting this.
Although I am an Nuclear advocate. I see wind technology as a more promising route for the next 20 years or so. Technology for turbines needs to improve as time goes on, but that it will happen is a given. I see huge dollars to be made in this area for investors who get in with the right company (ies)
http://www.awea.org/newsroom/releases/20percent_Wind_Report_12May2008.html
"The groundbreaking report, 20% Wind Energy by 2030: Increasing Wind Energy’s Contribution to U.S. Electricity Supply, looks closely at one scenario for reaching 20% wind energy by 2030 and contrasts it to a scenario of no new U.S. wind power capacity."
http://www.awea.org/projects/
Givesw you an idea where windpower is in the U.S.
Pretty amazing that the solution to our energy problems is right now blowing maple tree helicopters into my spouting as I am wtriting this.
Although I am an Nuclear advocate. I see wind technology as a more promising route for the next 20 years or so. Technology for turbines needs to improve as time goes on, but that it will happen is a given. I see huge dollars to be made in this area for investors who get in with the right company (ies)
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