Why some SP VOA's look anemic

[buster]

I may depend on the type of PAO, but I've seen graphs showing GTL having as good or better oxidation resistance than PAO.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Who knows the group V category encompasses a lot of chemicals.

Estolides (fatty acid esters) are being used in Havoline Renewable with great success.

View attachment 150043

True. It makes sense when one learns that Group V is everything that's not Group 1-4. IOW it's "Other".

Gr 5 can be lots of things like:
AN's
Esters
Pale Oils (They don't meet the min viscosity of Gr 1)

 

[ripcord]

Marine lubes like MobilGard will carry much higher TBN than we typically see on this site. They are dealing with low quality fuels …

...and even worse for oil is a high moisture environment. Water in oil greatly increases acid formation, hence the high TBNs in marine lubricants.

 

[OVERKILL]

He's speculating, so I will do the same: given the SOPUS - XOM relationship, I'd say that Pennzoil Platinum is using ANs. Even at a low treat rate, ANs go a long way in boosting the efficiency of the additive package. Formulating motor oils is an escalation/de-escalation game. If you choose to bring down additive levels, then you have to boost the tribo-film somehow. The best way to do it is by lowering detergency and by adding ANs to your formulation, as a co-base.

Absolutely a possibility, though I recall from the XOM tri-syn days (where they were using AN's) that they didn't significantly reduce additive levels like we are seeing now and of course HPL is also using AN's and not reducing additives. AN's will definitely massively improve solubility and make the product more robust, but I think there's more going on on the additive side that we can't see, or I hope that's the case anyway, otherwise there's going to be a reduction in performance.

 

[OVERKILL]

Any thoughts on what those additives might be and how they'd function?

Well, @MolaKule has noted XOM's fondness for borated compounds for example (borated esters) so perhaps it's something in that vein? I'd have to do some more digging into what Infineum has been cooking up more recently to comment further, as that would likely yield some further insight.

 

[4WD]

Well, @MolaKule has noted XOM's fondness for borated compounds for example (borated esters) so perhaps it's something in that vein? I'd have to do some more digging into what Infineum has been cooking up more recently to comment further, as that would likely yield some further insight.

I see that “insight”

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[Deleted member 89374]

Absolutely a possibility, though I recall from the XOM tri-syn days (where they were using AN's) that they didn't significantly reduce additive levels like we are seeing now and of course HPL is also using AN's and not reducing additives. AN's will definitely massively improve solubility and make the product more robust, but I think there's more going on on the additive side that we can't see, or I hope that's the case anyway, otherwise there's going to be a reduction in performance.

The Triple-Action formulation doesn't use any significant quantities of esters. I'd dare to say, if any, at all. So there isn't much in the tribo-film to compete for surface area and in the way of ZDDP doing its job.

HPL uses both ANs and Esters, and a significant amount of detergents in all their formulations. I believe that's why they also use a high amount of Moly compounds to offset the competition for surface, and ANs and Esters so that the oil can first and foremost clean after itself. The fact that all HPL oils also clean the mess lesser oils leave behind is an added bonus. If want a motor oil to go longer and withstand the abuse then it needs to be beefed up, however, with that come other tradeoffs. HPL blends a well sorted motor oil that addresses all these issues quite well, including seal conditioning (someone asked if HPL makes high mileage oils a while back).

 

[buster]

Just thinking out loud....so take oils like M1 EP/PP as an example. Both have excellent oxidation resistance. Say that with the reduction in metallic additives, wear performance did go up from SN to SP. Your base oil is solid, AO's, some detergents and some ZDP the whole nine yards. These oils are good at resisting deposit formation. However, pushed to far they would lack the solvency of an oil like HPL that can not only prevent deposits, but actually clean them as seen here through some of the photos people have shared.

 

[buster]

The Triple-Action formulation doesn't use any significant quantities of esters. I'd dare to say, if any, at all. So there isn't much in the tribo-film to compete for surface area and in the way of ZDDP doing its job.

HPL uses both ANs and Esters, and a significant amount of detergents in all their formulations. I believe that's why they also use a high amount of Moly compounds to offset the competition for surface, and ANs and Esters so that the oil can first and foremost clean after itself. The fact that all HPL oils also clean the mess lesser oils leave behind is an added bonus. If want a motor oil to go longer and withstand the abuse then it needs to be beefed up, however, with that come other tradeoffs. HPL blends a well sorted motor oil that addresses all these issues quite well, including seal conditioning (someone asked if HPL makes high mileage oils a while back).

Likely ANs. Triple is an unknown at this point.

I agree with your assessment. If you prevent deposits, and keep wear minimal, you're good to go. Cleaning requires solvency.

You're not going to get the solvency and cleaning effect with M1 EP/PP compared to oils like HPL, which have greater solvency.

The Mobil 0w40 FS PDS has always stated "great for cleaning dirty engines" or something like that, which makes sense considering it is using POE (oxidation is >30).

 

[OVERKILL]

Interestingly Lubrizol considers GTL to be a separate group.

Gr3: Wax removed.
Gr3+ : Hydroisomerized wax added. Hydroisomerized is wax which is removed from Gr 2/3 but has been chemically transformed from a solid into a liquid.
GTL - Pure hydroisomerized wax

"Gas-to-Liquid (GTL) base oils, also referred to as Fischer Tropsch base oils (FTBO), are formed from conversion of natural gas into liquid hydrocarbon streams. The GTL process converts natural gas into predominantly linear alkanes and n-paraffin wax via Fischer Tropsch catalysis. Isoparaffinic base oil is then produced by hydro-isomerization of the wax in the same way that Group III base oils are upgraded to Group III plus oils.

GTL base oil is essentially free of cyclic and polycyclic fractions. Asa result, these oils have very high viscosity index greater than conventional Group III base oils. Additionally, GTL base oils have similar pros and cons as polyalphaolefins (e.g. good thermal stability, reduced solvency)."

Ready Reference Guide

micro.lubrizol.com

Yep, there are some differences due to how it's produced, but officially, it's still Group III, and the products that fall within that category are also pretty varied. VISOM was another "Group III+" product for example.

 

[wpod]

What Shell blends into their oil ... only Shell knows. That's why I stay away from Pennzoil/Quaker State. At least when I ask HPL what's in their oil, I get an honest answer. If I'm curious about Mobil 1 products, XOM leaves enough clues in their MSDS and patent applications that I can draw an informed conclusion.

Decades ago I called Redline oil and Amsoil for information. Redline had an 800 phone number andanswered every question about base stock add package etc. Amsoil didn't have a 800 number and skated around giving me the answers I asked about base stock and add packages. I do not know if it changed but the posts about HPLs consumer interactions makes it a go to for the botique oil market .

 

[4WD]

Likely ANs. Triple is an unknown at this point.

I agree with your assessment. If you prevent deposits, and keep wear minimal, you're good to go. Cleaning requires solvency.

You're not going to get the solvency and cleaning effect with M1 EP/PP compared to oils like HPL, which have greater solvency.

The Mobil 0w40 FS PDS has always stated "great for cleaning dirty engines" or something like that, which makes sense considering it is using POE (oxidation is >30).

I don’t think the majors are necessarily there for someone who buys a 200k car that was ran on Golden State. They are there to get you to 200k and beyond always running a modern approved PVL …

 

[cheesepuffs2]

@RodKnock is fuel quality really not consistent across the US by now?

 

[Shel_B]

Well, @MolaKule has noted XOM's fondness for borated compounds for example (borated esters) so perhaps it's something in that vein? I'd have to do some more digging into what Infineum has been cooking up more recently to comment further, as that would likely yield some further insight.

Thanks for the reply. I was just "sort of" curious ...

 

[travis8352]

Absolutely a possibility, though I recall from the XOM tri-syn days (where they were using AN's) that they didn't significantly reduce additive levels like we are seeing now and of course HPL is also using AN's and not reducing additives. AN's will definitely massively improve solubility and make the product more robust, but I think there's more going on on the additive side that we can't see, or I hope that's the case anyway, otherwise there's going to be a reduction in performance.

SJ tri syn had no shortage of additives and it had a detergent package similar to HPL PCMO. 900 calcium 1700 magnesium

 

[buster]

One has to wonder that if there was no concern about emissions equipment life, the old school tried and true PAO/Ester with a hefty dose of Ca would have remained the same for quite some time. It works and works very well.

Right when I joined BITOG, Mobil 1 had 3,150 ppm of Ca, moly and some boron. I remember in the very early 2000's, during GF-4, Mobil was exploring chemistry that would allow extended drains with reduced metallic additives. I think that technology was either pricey or still in its infancy.

 

[OVERKILL]

Just thinking out loud....so take oils like M1 EP/PP as an example. Both have excellent oxidation resistance. Say that with the reduction in metallic additives, wear performance did go up from SN to SP. Your base oil is solid, AO's, some detergents and some ZDP the whole nine yards. These oils are good at resisting deposit formation. However, pushed to far they would lack the solvency of an oil like HPL that can not only prevent deposits, but actually clean them as seen here through some of the photos people have shared.

Yup, I mean, do we use my RAM as an example of that? Run on M1 EP 0W-20 its whole life, at only the OLM interval, yet we see what was liberated by HPL

Also, if you have a less robust detergent/dispersant package, if you have other sources of contaminants beyond just the oil itself breaking down (think high mileage engines with blow-by for example, or, as @Rod Knock noted, fuel dilution, a good example would be Honda's current situation) you are ultimately at higher risk of that being overwhelmed and deposits forming. So even if the base oil blend is more resistant to breakdown and creating deposits, it doesn't account for other factors.

 

[buster]

Yup, I mean, do we use my RAM as an example of that? Run on M1 EP 0W-20 its whole life, at only the OLM interval, yet we see what was liberated by HPL

Also, if you have a less robust detergent/dispersant package, if you have other sources of contaminants beyond just the oil itself breaking down (think high mileage engines with blow-by for example, or, as @Rod Knock noted, fuel dilution, a good example would be Honda's current situation) you are ultimately at higher risk of that being overwhelmed and deposits forming. So even if the base oil blend is more resistant to breakdown and creating deposits, it doesn't account for other factors.

I completely agree. SP oils are very good, and a step up from SN. But as we've seen, M1 EP/PP etc. will not clean like HPL. That requires a higher degree of solvency from a group V type fluid.

 

[4WD]

ICE has to remain in the game for a good while - and to do so emission systems are part of that equation … OEM’s have specs …
The continuous comparison of approved lubes to boutique is really nothing new - just a newer name in the mix - and it’s just as senseless as before …

 

[Deleted member 89374]

The continuous comparison of approved lubes to boutique is really nothing new

Pfft... you don't know what you're talking about... Red Line 5W-30 might be the only oil in the world that simultaneously meets Dexos 1 and BMW LL01...

...though it probably wouldn't be able to pass either...