Why some SP VOA's look anemic

[buster]

Per this video with Lakespeed Jr, he mentions that due to the GTL base oil being so clean, Pennzoil was able to reduce detergent and ZDP levels. They also reduced moly for a reduced deposit level (more moly = more deposits). They're heavily relying on the base oil.

It seems to me that if you're using a highly additized oil, you should also have great solvency to help reduce deposits (SA increases deposit formulation). Unlike detergents, which prevent deposits from sticking, the solvency is what gives the oil the ability to break down deposits. We've seen this recently with HPL through oil filter debris. So a loaded-up oil better have good solvency is my thinking.

With companies using soy and other plant-based additives as well as phenolic additives, there is more than meets the eye and it's not a "cheapening" of a product. This is often where leading-edge components are being used.

GM and Cummins disregard TBN.

 

[Jetronic]

My issue with this is, when in use in an engine that's not on a test stand, there's a lot of fuel entering the crankcase. the 4-5% we sometimes see in an oil analysis is only the tip of the iceberg as a lot of it evaporates quickly. This becomes part of the "base oil" for all intents and purposes, but is volatile and very prone to oxidation.

It's obviously good to have an oil that's stable, and I've always tried to go for those oils since learning the difference but I've seen what the move from A3/B4 to C3 oils did to gas engines, it's nasty. In the US the move has been more gradual and not combined with ultra long OCI so the change wasn't that abrupt or visible. In europe the change happened overnight almost. "Bulk tank is empty, we've ordered some *new* oil, guys".

I want the clean base oil with the high concentration add pack. And I'm happy to pay for it as winter season lasts too long for me to have 1 oci throughout. it was fine on my diesel, not on the turbo gdi.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

What Shell blends into their oil ... only Shell knows. That's why I stay away from Pennzoil/Quaker State. At least when I ask HPL what's in their oil, I get an honest answer. If I'm curious about Mobil 1 products, XOM leaves enough clues in their MSDS and patent applications that I can draw an informed conclusion.

 

[buster]

What Shell blends into their oil ... only Shell knows. That's why I stay away from Pennzoil/Quaker State. At least when I ask HPL what's in their oil, I get an honest answer. If I'm curious about Mobil 1 products, XOM leaves enough clues in their MSDS and patent applications that I can draw an informed conclusion.

True, but with an approved lubricant you get an oil that meets a level of performance through actual engine testing.

 

[buster]

"There's no harm in buying oils with 10+ TBN but TBH, there's not a lot of benefit to be gained either. The fact is that modern base oils (Groups II/III/IV/V) are massively more resistant to oxidation than old fashioned Group Is. If they're not breaking down, then there's nothing for the detergent to neutralise, so any excess just sits in the oil, doing naff all, until it's time to throw the oil away."

Lake also said SP oils provide better wear protection than SN oils due to the reduction of Ca. They've seen it through engine testing, not $35 UOAs.

 

[4WD]

Oh my … it’s no longer “weak sauce” on BITOCD …

 

[buster]

The only thing I'm curious about is if you're relying on the base oil so heavily wouldn't a higher Tbn help if it does start to breakdown or there are combustion byproducts entering the oil?

 

[kschachn]

The only thing I'm curious about is if you're relying on the base oil so heavily wouldn't a higher Tbn help if it does start to breakdown or there are combustion byproducts entering the oil?

But oxidation resistance is not represented by TBN is it? TBN indicates the resistance to acidification by combustion products as you note. Oxidation resistance is a separate and different ASTM test.

 

[buster]

But oxidation resistance is not represented by TBN is it? TBN indicates the residence to acidification by combustion products. Oxidation resistance is a separate and different ASTM test.

Right. I'm just thinking maybe having a high Tbn gives you a cushion when oxidation does occur?

 

[OVERKILL]

"There's no harm in buying oils with 10+ TBN but TBH, there's not a lot of benefit to be gained either. The fact is that modern base oils (Groups II/III/IV/V) are massively more resistant to oxidation than old fashioned Group Is. If they're not breaking down, then there's nothing for the detergent to neutralise, so any excess just sits in the oil, doing naff all, until it's time to throw the oil away."

Lake also said SP oils provide BETTER wear protection due to the reduction of Ca. They've seen it through engine testing, not $35 UOAs.

A bit of hyperbole there though, nobody is using Group I's and GTL is just Group III with all the same drawbacks (very low solvency, needs PPD's due to wax crystal formation...etc) that other Group III's like Yubase, VISOM...etc have.

These changes didn't happen when Shell introduced GTL back in the Pennzoil Ultra days, these are recent changes while using the same slate of base oils so I don't buy that this is the single driving factor leading to reduced (visible) additive levels. It's more likely they are using more additives that we can't see in a VOA/UOA to make up the difference.

 

[4WD]

The only thing I'm curious about is if you're relying on the base oil so heavily wouldn't a higher Tbn help if it does start to breakdown or there are combustion byproducts entering the oil?

Marine lubes like MobilGard will carry much higher TBN than we typically see on this site. They are dealing with low quality fuels …

 

[kschachn]

Right. I'm just thinking maybe having a high Tbn gives you a cushion when oxidation does occur?

I don’t think so. I’d say it’s the amount of saturates. Maybe something else too, but that’s beyond my pay grade. TBN would be only related to the amount of alkaline buffers in the oil. You could have a highly oxidation resistant oil that would have a zero TBN.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

These changes didn't happen when Shell introduced GTL back in the Pennzoil Ultra days, these are recent changes while using the same slate of base oils so I don't buy that this is the single driving factor leading to reduced (visible) additive levels. It's more likely they are using more additives that we can't see in a VOA/UOA to make up the difference.

He's speculating, so I will do the same: given the SOPUS - XOM relationship, I'd say that Pennzoil Platinum is using ANs. Even at a low treat rate, ANs go a long way in boosting the efficiency of the additive package. Formulating motor oils is an escalation/de-escalation game. If you choose to bring down additive levels, then you have to boost the tribo-film somehow. The best way to do it is by lowering detergency and by adding ANs to your formulation, as a co-base.

 

[buster]

A bit of hyperbole there though, nobody is using Group I's and GTL is just Group III with all the same drawbacks (very low solvency, needs PPD's due to wax crystal formation...etc) that other Group III's like Yubase, VISOM...etc have.

These changes didn't happen when Shell introduced GTL back in the Pennzoil Ultra days, these are recent changes while using the same slate of base oils so I don't buy that this is the single driving factor leading to reduced (visible) additive levels. It's more likely they are using more additives that we can't see in a VOA/UOA to make up the difference.

I think that's likely true. More than meets the eye going on here. The reduction in detergents allowed for better wear performance from SN to SP, while also reducing the SA for better deposit control. Relying so much on the base oil is good if you're base oil is great and you're using good AO's. I'd still think I'd like to have sufficient tbn as a reserve.

 

[buster]

He's speculating, so I will do the same: given the SOPUS - XOM relationship, I'd say that Pennzoil Platinum is using ANs. Even at a low treat rate, ANs go a long way in boosting the efficiency of the additive package. Formulating motor oils is an escalation/de-escalation game. If you choose to bring down additive levels, then you have to boost the tribo-film somehow. The best way to do it is by lowering detergency and by adding ANs to your formulation, as a co-base.

Chemistry is not black and white that's' for sure. There are many ways to formulate.

 

[buster]

I wonder if your oil has a high SA over 1.0 that by default need high solvency to reduce and break down deposits?

 

[Shel_B]

A bit of hyperbole there though, nobody is using Group I's and GTL is just Group III with all the same drawbacks (very low solvency, needs PPD's due to wax crystal formation...etc) that other Group III's like Yubase, VISOM...etc have.

These changes didn't happen when Shell introduced GTL back in the Pennzoil Ultra days, these are recent changes while using the same slate of base oils so I don't buy that this is the single driving factor leading to reduced (visible) additive levels. It's more likely they are using more additives that we can't see in a VOA/UOA to make up the difference.

Any thoughts on what those additives might be and how they'd function?

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I'd still think I'd like to have sufficient tbn as a reserve.

It's all about TBN retention. Then again, fuel and fuel quality is not uniform across the US.

Chemistry is not black and white that's' for sure. There are many ways to formulate.

What I described is the way Mobil does it with Triple Action. I wouldn't be surprised if Shell does it a lot differently. Still, I trust Mobil more than I trust Shell when it comes to formulations.

I wonder if your oil has a high SA over 1.0 that by default need high solvency to reduce and break down deposits?

All I can say is that I have a 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe with the 3.3L GDI engine. It's a low compression GDI engine that was designed during the API SM days, so Hyundai took into account oil consumption. For the first 30K miles I ran Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 in it and never had an issue with it. Switched to Castrol EDGE Euro 0W-40, and did 5K mile OCIs. Oil consumption was minimal. Tried Red Line 5W-30 and oil consumption was bad. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40, not as bad as Red Line 5W-30, but there is still consumption. With M1 0W-40 it ate half a quart in 4000 miles. The bottom line is that this engine does not like high Calcium oils. I'm currently on HPL PCMO PP 5W-30, and there isn't any oil consumption. I don't expect there to be any. I bet that if I go back to Mobil 1 EP 5W-30, it will be fine.

I just ran a can of CRC IVD cleaner through the intake, and the engine didn't skip a beat, no smoke came out the exhaust. There are no carbon deposits in the engine. It just doesn't like Euro oils. I'll stick to Dexos/ILSAC API SP type oils from now on in this engine.

Before that, I did a 4000 mile run with HPL EC30 + M1 FS 0W-40. The filter was clean. Everything was clean. No carbon deposits to speak of.

We've been conditioned here on BITOG to think that more is better, but that's no always the case, especially when it comes to motor oil, as they have evolved. Full SAPS oils belong in old engines or in parts of the world where high sulfur Diesel and gasoline are still sold.

 

[buster]

Any thoughts on what those additives might be and how they'd function?

Who knows the group V category encompasses a lot of chemicals.

Estolides (fatty acid esters) are being used in Havoline Renewable with great success.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

A bit of hyperbole there though, nobody is using Group I's and GTL is just Group III with all the same drawbacks (very low solvency, needs PPD's due to wax crystal formation...etc) that other Group III's like Yubase, VISOM...etc have.

These changes didn't happen when Shell introduced GTL back in the Pennzoil Ultra days, these are recent changes while using the same slate of base oils so I don't buy that this is the single driving factor leading to reduced (visible) additive levels. It's more likely they are using more additives that we can't see in a VOA/UOA to make up the difference.

Interestingly Lubrizol considers GTL to be a separate group.

Gr3: Wax removed.
Gr3+ : Hydroisomerized wax added. Hydroisomerized is wax which is removed from Gr 2/3 but has been chemically transformed from a solid into a liquid.
GTL - Pure hydroisomerized wax

"Gas-to-Liquid (GTL) base oils, also referred to as Fischer Tropsch base oils (FTBO), are formed from conversion of natural gas into liquid hydrocarbon streams. The GTL process converts natural gas into predominantly linear alkanes and n-paraffin wax via Fischer Tropsch catalysis. Isoparaffinic base oil is then produced by hydro-isomerization of the wax in the same way that Group III base oils are upgraded to Group III plus oils.

GTL base oil is essentially free of cyclic and polycyclic fractions. Asa result, these oils have very high viscosity index greater than conventional Group III base oils. Additionally, GTL base oils have similar pros and cons as polyalphaolefins (e.g. good thermal stability, reduced solvency)."

Ready Reference Guide

micro.lubrizol.com