Let me simply state that no fastener on which I have used a TW has been stripped, broken, or has come loose.
That cannot be said of many of all the rest.
That cannot be said of many of all the rest.
Why So Much Disdain For Using Torque Tools
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Originally Posted By: sandy_d
Originally Posted By: GeneralEclectic
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Sadly to say, there are way way too many "professionals" that think their personal calibration (including the number of hammer impacts their air wrench makes, probably) is good enough.
This!
problem with "This" is that operator feel is typically more accurate than a friction-based, clicker torque wrench. So those "professionals" are just as, or more likely to get it right.
Originally Posted By: GeneralEclectic
[
Sadly to say, there are way way too many "professionals" that think their personal calibration (including the number of hammer impacts their air wrench makes, probably) is good enough.
This!
problem with "This" is that operator feel is typically more accurate than a friction-based, clicker torque wrench. So those "professionals" are just as, or more likely to get it right.
Originally Posted By: JOD
John Bickford would disagree, and he's researched this exact question in detail. These are his results:
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You can read more of the methodology of how he determined this in his "Handbook of Bolts and Bolted Joints".
Originally Posted By: Stu_Rock
John Bickford would disagree, and he's researched this exact question in detail. These are his results:
...
You can read more of the methodology of how he determined this in his "Handbook of Bolts and Bolted Joints".
Originally Posted By: Stu_Rock
Stu_Rock said:
Torque varies a lot by having any lube on the threads, the condition of the nut or stud, and how fast the torque is applied.
Some fasteners are critical and need very even torque. Of course I use a TW then.
But for the vast majority of car parts, no. and no problems so far. After 35 years of use every day, how do you manage to avoid any sense of feel?
I have seen oil pan bolts stripped and gaskets squeezed out with the 'proper' torque. Same for valve cover bolts -broken or stripped. Spark plugs stripped out, as well.
Some fasteners are critical and need very even torque. Of course I use a TW then.
But for the vast majority of car parts, no. and no problems so far. After 35 years of use every day, how do you manage to avoid any sense of feel?
I have seen oil pan bolts stripped and gaskets squeezed out with the 'proper' torque. Same for valve cover bolts -broken or stripped. Spark plugs stripped out, as well.
Quote:
Can you tell me how much time and money they did put towards torque specs?
An exact dollar amount no, but i can tell you this.
My cousin is an engineer at BMW's M unit in München. They have a lab (multiple) to test parts, drive trains, suspension components as well as developing specs on bolt or nut type, grade and torque values to be used in construction.
They also perform crash testing and all sorts of other things.
Seeing how the fasteners perform during this testing phase is critical.
I don't imagine torque testing of fasteners has its own little budget but rather is done as part of the development phase as a whole.
Can you tell me how much time and money they did put towards torque specs?
An exact dollar amount no, but i can tell you this.
My cousin is an engineer at BMW's M unit in München. They have a lab (multiple) to test parts, drive trains, suspension components as well as developing specs on bolt or nut type, grade and torque values to be used in construction.
They also perform crash testing and all sorts of other things.
Seeing how the fasteners perform during this testing phase is critical.
I don't imagine torque testing of fasteners has its own little budget but rather is done as part of the development phase as a whole.
I know that there are many here that are careful and pay close attention to detail and have a lot of common sense and most likely you are the rare few that can get away without using a torque wrench, unfortunately most "professionals" I've come across getting my cars repaired do not have the same skills as those here do, but also don't care about ACTUALLY doing a "professional" job.
Quote:
how do you manage to avoid any sense of feel?
As i said i have good feel but not under certain situations especially at higher values.
One example is some brake caliper bracket bolts, sometimes these have very high torque values. If you can "feel" 180ftlb with a breaker bar or long ratchet your a better man then me because i cant.
GM CV axle nuts that need only 118lb often result in damaged outer bearings by the "feel method" but i have never had an issue when a properly calibrated tool is used on a new nut on clean dry threads.
Of course i don't use a torque tool for everything just on things that are critical or is susceptible to damage.
That's where the experience comes in, determining what to use it on and when. IMO that's just as important as having a good "feel".
how do you manage to avoid any sense of feel?
As i said i have good feel but not under certain situations especially at higher values.
One example is some brake caliper bracket bolts, sometimes these have very high torque values. If you can "feel" 180ftlb with a breaker bar or long ratchet your a better man then me because i cant.
GM CV axle nuts that need only 118lb often result in damaged outer bearings by the "feel method" but i have never had an issue when a properly calibrated tool is used on a new nut on clean dry threads.
Of course i don't use a torque tool for everything just on things that are critical or is susceptible to damage.
That's where the experience comes in, determining what to use it on and when. IMO that's just as important as having a good "feel".
Ok, I'm gonna throw some gas on the fire.
This sounds like new wave VS oldschool.Growing up,I didn't have a torque wrench,nor could afford one.The first time I actually used one was in the aircraft engine shop at the Clearwater CoastGuard air station while I was in Jrotc in highschool doing my summer extra-curricullar intern,etc.Using a pre-set TW I casually asked the on-duty tech,"why does this wrench keep clicking",as I'm tightening a ceramic bolt installing a fuel regulator or block of some sort I cant remember.I GOT SCHOOLED.Since then learning that fasteners ,materials, threads, cleanliness and lubricity are part of a proper install are rellevant really in highly technical apps not just on say, an alternator bracket.That said,new school aluminum engine apps(not talking about engine building ,thats a different matter) certainly do require an accurate hand or torque wrench ,whichever you happen to have on hand.Don't let oldschool scare you guys or leave you scratching your head,weve seen about everything.And tried worse.
This sounds like new wave VS oldschool.Growing up,I didn't have a torque wrench,nor could afford one.The first time I actually used one was in the aircraft engine shop at the Clearwater CoastGuard air station while I was in Jrotc in highschool doing my summer extra-curricullar intern,etc.Using a pre-set TW I casually asked the on-duty tech,"why does this wrench keep clicking",as I'm tightening a ceramic bolt installing a fuel regulator or block of some sort I cant remember.I GOT SCHOOLED.Since then learning that fasteners ,materials, threads, cleanliness and lubricity are part of a proper install are rellevant really in highly technical apps not just on say, an alternator bracket.That said,new school aluminum engine apps(not talking about engine building ,thats a different matter) certainly do require an accurate hand or torque wrench ,whichever you happen to have on hand.Don't let oldschool scare you guys or leave you scratching your head,weve seen about everything.And tried worse.
I'll use a torque wrench with any bearings, any drivetrain stuff, and any internal engine items. Beyond that, it's by feel and application. Usually I'll err on the side of "that's tight enough" instead of "let's really tighten that sucker". It seems to have worked so far...
Trav, I WISH I COULD use a torque wrench for my spark plugs!!!
But alas, even with 2 universal joints on a 'wobble type' extension it is IMPOSSIBLE on a stock LS1 in an f body, such is the lack of space in that particular engine bay.
I DO use one everywhere else possible, especially on the lug nuts, which I re-check/torque the next day.
But alas, even with 2 universal joints on a 'wobble type' extension it is IMPOSSIBLE on a stock LS1 in an f body, such is the lack of space in that particular engine bay.
I DO use one everywhere else possible, especially on the lug nuts, which I re-check/torque the next day.
Trav,
I don't think that any of us would not use a torque wrench where really required.
OTOH, not many of us would bother with a torque wrench for an oil drain plug.
It isn't that I disdain torque tools.
It's just that not every application with a published torque value really needs one.
Cylinder head?
You'd be a fool not to use a torque wrench.
Spark plugs?
In an alloy head, yes.
Wheels?
With lug bolts on a German car, of course.
An oil pan or trans pan with a multitude of small bolts that require low torque?
Best to use one, although I've done it without and lucked out.
There are places a torque wrench is clearly required, and places where it really isn't that much of an aid.
It is a matter of common sense, I think.
I don't think that any of us would not use a torque wrench where really required.
OTOH, not many of us would bother with a torque wrench for an oil drain plug.
It isn't that I disdain torque tools.
It's just that not every application with a published torque value really needs one.
Cylinder head?
You'd be a fool not to use a torque wrench.
Spark plugs?
In an alloy head, yes.
Wheels?
With lug bolts on a German car, of course.
An oil pan or trans pan with a multitude of small bolts that require low torque?
Best to use one, although I've done it without and lucked out.
There are places a torque wrench is clearly required, and places where it really isn't that much of an aid.
It is a matter of common sense, I think.
I enjoy tightening most fasteners by feel, but I still use torque wrenches in many applications and I don't see anything wrong with someone using torque wrenches more frequently if they're not comfortable going by feel. Spark plugs, lug nuts, internal engine components, and many front end components are outside my comfort zone.
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