Seems like all modern AT do the same thing. Why is it that each manufacturer designs transmissions to use specific oils? Imagine unique motor oils for each engine (I know, I know... some engines do have unique requirements, but not nearly like auto transmissions.)
Why isn't ATF standardized?
- Thread starter MajorCavalry
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Because then they couldn't sell their proprietary fluids or licensing for those fluids when the time comes for replacement.
You need to make money on the back end as well as the front end.
You need to make money on the back end as well as the front end.
Different transmission specs (torque specs, etc, etc) require fluids with difference lubrication (slipperiness) properties, hence different requirements.
That said, i use the same lube in all my cars and everything shifts smoothly and works wonderfully.
That said, i use the same lube in all my cars and everything shifts smoothly and works wonderfully.
Hello, Best of luck with your "fleet" of cars. I'm glad you can use one transmission fluid for all of them. They don't seem too varied however. Kira
Originally Posted By: MajorCavalry
Seems like all modern AT do the same thing. Why is it that each manufacturer designs transmissions to use specific oils? Imagine unique motor oils for each engine (I know, I know... some engines do have unique requirements, but not nearly like auto transmissions.)
When you start looking at specs like the ACEA, API and all the unique manufacturer specifications (GM, M-B and all the others)...there are a lot more unique motor oil specifications that reflect particular manufacture requirements than there are transmission specifications for particular manufacturer requirements...
All modern engines do the same thing: gasoline into heat and power...so why not question the number of these specs?
I mean, why all the different viscosities? why all the different OCIs? Why SN? Why have a B1 or B3 or B5? Why have different ones for diesel? They all do the same thing...
Could it be that they each operate differently to do the same thing?
Seems like all modern AT do the same thing. Why is it that each manufacturer designs transmissions to use specific oils? Imagine unique motor oils for each engine (I know, I know... some engines do have unique requirements, but not nearly like auto transmissions.)
When you start looking at specs like the ACEA, API and all the unique manufacturer specifications (GM, M-B and all the others)...there are a lot more unique motor oil specifications that reflect particular manufacture requirements than there are transmission specifications for particular manufacturer requirements...
All modern engines do the same thing: gasoline into heat and power...so why not question the number of these specs?
I mean, why all the different viscosities? why all the different OCIs? Why SN? Why have a B1 or B3 or B5? Why have different ones for diesel? They all do the same thing...
Could it be that they each operate differently to do the same thing?
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: MajorCavalry
Seems like all modern AT do the same thing. Why is it that each manufacturer designs transmissions to use specific oils? Imagine unique motor oils for each engine (I know, I know... some engines do have unique requirements, but not nearly like auto transmissions.)
When you start looking at specs like the ACEA, API and all the unique manufacturer specifications (GM, M-B and all the others)...there are a lot more unique motor oil specifications that reflect particular manufacture requirements than there are transmission specifications for particular manufacturer requirements...
All true, but with auto transmissions, EACH manufacturer has their own fluid. Despite huge differences in hp and torque of various engines, the ATF for each manufacturer is the same!
(Honda Civic, Acura TL.....Chevy Cruz, Corvette, etc)
At least with motor oils there are ones that will work for MANY manufacturers. And they can be easily produced by third parties.
Originally Posted By: MajorCavalry
Seems like all modern AT do the same thing. Why is it that each manufacturer designs transmissions to use specific oils? Imagine unique motor oils for each engine (I know, I know... some engines do have unique requirements, but not nearly like auto transmissions.)
When you start looking at specs like the ACEA, API and all the unique manufacturer specifications (GM, M-B and all the others)...there are a lot more unique motor oil specifications that reflect particular manufacture requirements than there are transmission specifications for particular manufacturer requirements...
All true, but with auto transmissions, EACH manufacturer has their own fluid. Despite huge differences in hp and torque of various engines, the ATF for each manufacturer is the same!
(Honda Civic, Acura TL.....Chevy Cruz, Corvette, etc)
At least with motor oils there are ones that will work for MANY manufacturers. And they can be easily produced by third parties.
IIRC. Higher fuel economy and higher HP drive the changes.
And if they really are all that different, why don't we see more problems when aftermarket multi-vehicle ATFs are used?
Originally Posted By: MajorCavalry
At least with motor oils there are ones that will work for MANY manufacturers. And they can be easily produced by third parties.
So can vehicle-specific ATFs. The key is the licensing. Chrysler has licensed its ATF+4 so that any number of blenders have an ATF+4 product. You can get SuperTech ATF+4, and it'll have exactly the same performance properties as Mopar ATF+4.
Honda, on the other hand, chooses not to license its ATF. Could other blenders physically make the product? Sure they could. But Honda doesn't license its fluid formulas to other blenders. Somebody makes it for Honda. Honda itself doesn't make its own ATF. Somebody (like ConocoPhilips for example) physically produces the Honda ATF. The formula is simply not for sale.
This is more of a marketing/financial decision than a physical capability to manufacture the lubricant.
It's not just ATFs either. Besides specific requirements for engine oils, various drivetrain oils are specific to those systems. GM's Versatrak and Honda's Dual Pump II and VTM-4 fluids come readily to mind.
At least with motor oils there are ones that will work for MANY manufacturers. And they can be easily produced by third parties.
So can vehicle-specific ATFs. The key is the licensing. Chrysler has licensed its ATF+4 so that any number of blenders have an ATF+4 product. You can get SuperTech ATF+4, and it'll have exactly the same performance properties as Mopar ATF+4.
Honda, on the other hand, chooses not to license its ATF. Could other blenders physically make the product? Sure they could. But Honda doesn't license its fluid formulas to other blenders. Somebody makes it for Honda. Honda itself doesn't make its own ATF. Somebody (like ConocoPhilips for example) physically produces the Honda ATF. The formula is simply not for sale.
This is more of a marketing/financial decision than a physical capability to manufacture the lubricant.
It's not just ATFs either. Besides specific requirements for engine oils, various drivetrain oils are specific to those systems. GM's Versatrak and Honda's Dual Pump II and VTM-4 fluids come readily to mind.
Try running the wrong fluid in an automatic and see how you like it .
Different designs , different standards comrade .
Different designs , different standards comrade .
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
And if they really are all that different, why don't we see more problems when aftermarket multi-vehicle ATFs are used?
In certain situations you do. I have seen numerous failures of CVTs due to quick lubes putting ATF in them as opposed to CVT fluid.
And if they really are all that different, why don't we see more problems when aftermarket multi-vehicle ATFs are used?
In certain situations you do. I have seen numerous failures of CVTs due to quick lubes putting ATF in them as opposed to CVT fluid.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
In certain situations you do. I have seen numerous failures of CVTs due to quick lubes putting ATF in them as opposed to CVT fluid.
CVTs are an obvious exception and your comment therefore doesn't prove anything.
In certain situations you do. I have seen numerous failures of CVTs due to quick lubes putting ATF in them as opposed to CVT fluid.
CVTs are an obvious exception and your comment therefore doesn't prove anything.
Ok well think of it this way. When you buy a vehicle there is a warranty. That warranty is backed buy the manufacturer and then they get it backed by the company they sourced the transmission from. They designed it to use a certain fluid so it meets their operational parameters. They license a fluid that meets those parameters so they can avoid the MM Act debacle. When people just throw random off the shelf fluid in there, ya it will probably work, but they will not guarantee it will work as designed.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
CVT is not an AT...
How so?
I was gonna bring that one up too. You put it in "d" and let the car shift for you. In my book that is an automatic trans. FWIW the Ford unit in the 500s has clutches and steels like an automatic. How do I know you may ask, well I have seen one apart and billed them out.
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
CVT is not an AT...
How so?
I was gonna bring that one up too. You put it in "d" and let the car shift for you. In my book that is an automatic trans. FWIW the Ford unit in the 500s has clutches and steels like an automatic. How do I know you may ask, well I have seen one apart and billed them out.
MolaKule
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In certain situations you do. I have seen numerous failures of CVTs due to quick lubes putting ATF in them as opposed to CVT fluid.
They are both hydraulic fluids but there is a difference. CVT fluid's friction coefficients are built on "Traction" coefficients and have to have a different friction Modification (FM) formulation.
In certain situations you do. I have seen numerous failures of CVTs due to quick lubes putting ATF in them as opposed to CVT fluid.
They are both hydraulic fluids but there is a difference. CVT fluid's friction coefficients are built on "Traction" coefficients and have to have a different friction Modification (FM) formulation.
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I don't think CVT's can be compared to auto's other than the fact that they change ratios and transmit power.
ZF comes to mind with their numerous types of ATF. It's nuts.
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