Why I buy American
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There are lots of Japanese, Korean, and German cars made here in the USA. The initial sale of that vehicle has "some" of the money went back overseas to the parent company. But the service work, body work, sales commision, all stay here keeping Americans employed as well. The second sale of that vehicle.....100% of the money stays here, same with the third, fourth, so on, etc..
The upkeep of the dealership and maintenence of the entire facility keeps american workers employed. To say that the money goes back overseas is to look at a small segment of the economics of it all.
Most, if not all of the foreign cars made here are made in non-union facilities that produce a higher quality product as well. Yes, I am anti-union. Their time has passed and their interests only lie within themselves. Not the greater good of the company that they are swindling. You never hear much from them, but when GM and CHRY were crying wolf....Oh man did they come out full force to protect their bloated pensions, benefits and paychecks. They didn't care if it was taxpayer money or not. They just want what they want and will extort whomever they have to. All the while building inferior products.
Yet the Japanese car market didn't need to ask for a single penny. Their products have proven themselves to be superior in every way for 30+ years.
The upkeep of the dealership and maintenence of the entire facility keeps american workers employed. To say that the money goes back overseas is to look at a small segment of the economics of it all.
Most, if not all of the foreign cars made here are made in non-union facilities that produce a higher quality product as well. Yes, I am anti-union. Their time has passed and their interests only lie within themselves. Not the greater good of the company that they are swindling. You never hear much from them, but when GM and CHRY were crying wolf....Oh man did they come out full force to protect their bloated pensions, benefits and paychecks. They didn't care if it was taxpayer money or not. They just want what they want and will extort whomever they have to. All the while building inferior products.
Yet the Japanese car market didn't need to ask for a single penny. Their products have proven themselves to be superior in every way for 30+ years.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: bustednutz
Yet the Japanese car market didn't need to ask for a single penny. Their products have proven themselves to be superior in every way for 30+ years.
Really?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/03...ed-bank-for-2b/
Quote:
Toyota Financial Services has requested a $2B loan from the Japan Bank for International Cooperation, a government-backed lending institution. TFS says it needs the money to cover the higher cost of borrowing in the US.
*snip*
Quote:
” Toyota’s “implied” credit rating based on credit-default swaps is considerably lower than its current Moody’s rating, as fears grow about liquidity problems across the automotive industry. The money will come from a $5B fund established by the Japanese government to provide liquidity for firms which operate abroad. These funds are said to come from Japan’s $1T+ in foreign cash reserves, the world’s second-largest foreign currency reserves after China. Nissan and Mitsubishi have also said they will apply for loans from this fund.
Yet the Japanese car market didn't need to ask for a single penny. Their products have proven themselves to be superior in every way for 30+ years.
Really?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/03...ed-bank-for-2b/
Quote:
Toyota Financial Services has requested a $2B loan from the Japan Bank for International Cooperation, a government-backed lending institution. TFS says it needs the money to cover the higher cost of borrowing in the US.
*snip*
Quote:
” Toyota’s “implied” credit rating based on credit-default swaps is considerably lower than its current Moody’s rating, as fears grow about liquidity problems across the automotive industry. The money will come from a $5B fund established by the Japanese government to provide liquidity for firms which operate abroad. These funds are said to come from Japan’s $1T+ in foreign cash reserves, the world’s second-largest foreign currency reserves after China. Nissan and Mitsubishi have also said they will apply for loans from this fund.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Overk1ll, you silly rabbit, don't you know it's OK if foreign companies are support by their governments and employ unionized workers in their country but it's not OK for the domestics to do it?
Yes, and they don't have recalls either! And there are never ANY issues with ANY of their vehicles. No sludge, no frames rotting, no spontaneous acceleration, no catalytic converters self-destructing and cooking engines. No premature transmission failures or anything like that either
Overk1ll, you silly rabbit, don't you know it's OK if foreign companies are support by their governments and employ unionized workers in their country but it's not OK for the domestics to do it?
Yes, and they don't have recalls either! And there are never ANY issues with ANY of their vehicles. No sludge, no frames rotting, no spontaneous acceleration, no catalytic converters self-destructing and cooking engines. No premature transmission failures or anything like that either
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Overk1ll, you silly rabbit, don't you know it's OK if foreign companies are support by their governments and employ unionized workers in their country but it's not OK for the domestics to do it?
Yes, and they don't have recalls either! And there are never ANY issues with ANY of their vehicles. No sludge, no frames rotting, no spontaneous acceleration, no catalytic converters self-destructing and cooking engines. No premature transmission failures or anything like that either
LOL I guess you never worked at a Honda Dealership, LOL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Overk1ll, you silly rabbit, don't you know it's OK if foreign companies are support by their governments and employ unionized workers in their country but it's not OK for the domestics to do it?
Yes, and they don't have recalls either! And there are never ANY issues with ANY of their vehicles. No sludge, no frames rotting, no spontaneous acceleration, no catalytic converters self-destructing and cooking engines. No premature transmission failures or anything like that either
LOL I guess you never worked at a Honda Dealership, LOL
*Gasp* Overkill! You can't allow logic and reason into this discussion!!
/sarcasm off I thought it was common knowledge that toyota took loans from the Japanese government. I guess some people just don't pay much attention
/sarcasm off I thought it was common knowledge that toyota took loans from the Japanese government. I guess some people just don't pay much attention
guys -- always read the sig.have a good day.
I think one shouldn't limit themselves to a "just American". There are plenty of cars/vehicles out there that "could" be potentially better than what is made here. A car is a car so long as its reliable and gets you from point A to point B, meets your price point and styling then it shouldn't matter if its America, Japanese or European. The line has been blurred so much these past few years some other cars are more American than American nameplates are themselves im some cases/models.
what do you say to Joe Lunch Box that lives two doors down, when he looses his job he had at one of the big three for 20 years. and you have a car made out side the lower 48 sitting in your driveway. or a car maker that is headquartered outside the 48. but has a plant inside the lower 48 but is a non-union shop. dont get me wrong i was a union member for 32 years. and can, and do say things against the union. they are a necessary evil.
I think most people don't really care where a vehicle is made or country of ownership. They wouldn't really care if the car was made in China, some other low cost country, or by low paid temporary workers in the US, as long as they can rationalize the purchase. They don't care about the domestic economic impact of their buying decisons. They don't know and they don't want to know. IMO this mentality is why our economy and job market has the problems it does. They just don't consider that a factor, and it's not an easy factor to calculate.
If given a reasonable choice between domestic and foreign products, i.e. a Malibu, Fusion etc vs Accord, Camry, Sonata etc, I take the economic factor into account. It helps that the domestics are objectively as good or better in most areas. The foreign makes just aren't the economic equivalent, the real numbers don't support it and probably never will. If they did then I'd see it as equivalents.
But when some types subjectively and even erroneously bash the domestics makers, the cars, the workers, misconstrue the facts about the bail outs, unions etc, I think that's a different matter and someone should provide opposing facts and information. Everyone is free to buy and like what they want but that doesn't mean their reasonings is particularly valid.
If given a reasonable choice between domestic and foreign products, i.e. a Malibu, Fusion etc vs Accord, Camry, Sonata etc, I take the economic factor into account. It helps that the domestics are objectively as good or better in most areas. The foreign makes just aren't the economic equivalent, the real numbers don't support it and probably never will. If they did then I'd see it as equivalents.
But when some types subjectively and even erroneously bash the domestics makers, the cars, the workers, misconstrue the facts about the bail outs, unions etc, I think that's a different matter and someone should provide opposing facts and information. Everyone is free to buy and like what they want but that doesn't mean their reasonings is particularly valid.
For me, buying American is irrelevant. I bought the car that gave me the most for the money that I had, in this case, a 2004 Subaru Legacy, which has been nothing short of stellar. Its been cheap to maintain and very reliable. Very few cars can beat it getting around in a Colorado snowstorm.
Originally Posted By: morris
what do you say to Joe Lunch Box that lives two doors down, when he looses his job he had at one of the big three for 20 years. and you have a car made out side the lower 48 sitting in your driveway. or a car maker that is headquartered outside the 48. but has a plant inside the lower 48 but is a non-union shop. dont get me wrong i was a union member for 32 years. and can, and do say things against the union. they are a necessary evil.
Probably you'd say he lost his job because consumers bought a competitor's cars. That is really the fundamental reason. Funny thing is Joe might have lost his job and never worked in the auto industry or even in manufacturing. He could even worked in the public sector. That is what's been happened. Now if foreign transplants were really creating net jobs we wouldn't have the job loss in the automotive sector alone. In the majority of cases, I don't see an objective or compelling reason that would differentiate say a Malibu from a Camry etc, but like I mentioned if you don't care about the economic impact or believe they're equivalents then I guess it makes it a lot easier to differentiate the products.
what do you say to Joe Lunch Box that lives two doors down, when he looses his job he had at one of the big three for 20 years. and you have a car made out side the lower 48 sitting in your driveway. or a car maker that is headquartered outside the 48. but has a plant inside the lower 48 but is a non-union shop. dont get me wrong i was a union member for 32 years. and can, and do say things against the union. they are a necessary evil.
Probably you'd say he lost his job because consumers bought a competitor's cars. That is really the fundamental reason. Funny thing is Joe might have lost his job and never worked in the auto industry or even in manufacturing. He could even worked in the public sector. That is what's been happened. Now if foreign transplants were really creating net jobs we wouldn't have the job loss in the automotive sector alone. In the majority of cases, I don't see an objective or compelling reason that would differentiate say a Malibu from a Camry etc, but like I mentioned if you don't care about the economic impact or believe they're equivalents then I guess it makes it a lot easier to differentiate the products.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
If given a reasonable choice between domestic and foreign products, i.e. a Malibu, Fusion etc vs Accord, Camry, Sonata etc, I take the economic factor into account. It helps that the domestics are objectively as good or better in most areas. The foreign makes just aren't the economic equivalent, the real numbers don't support it and probably never will. If they did then I'd see it as equivalents.
I've never seen a true, objective, economic analysis of a purchase of a Malibu vs. a Fusion vs. an Accord vs. a Camry vs. a Sonata vs. an Altima, etc. Some are made in America, some aren't. Some have high domestic parts contents, some don't. Some have corporations traditionally headquartered in the United States, some don't. Some are made in union shops, some aren't.
And by a "true and objective" analysis, I don't mean an emotion-enflamed rant about, "well if you don't understand you never will!" THAT type of attitude doesn't make a convert out of anyone. I'd like to see an honest and fair economic analysis that measures the benefit to the United States produced by the purchase of any of these cars.
Edit: take a Camry and a Fusion (since you brought those up). The Camry is built in Kentucky, with an 80% domestic parts content. The Fusion is built in Mexico, with what I understand to be a 30% domestic parts content. From everything I’ve read, it’s short of 50%, and some sources say 30%. The Fusion may still be more beneficial to the United States. Again, I’d like to see a fair analysis. But you can clearly see the conclusion that most would come to here. Either way, if Ford’s going to get the credit for building an “American” car in the Fusion, I’d like to see a little more effort on their part to hire American workers to part and build the thing.
If given a reasonable choice between domestic and foreign products, i.e. a Malibu, Fusion etc vs Accord, Camry, Sonata etc, I take the economic factor into account. It helps that the domestics are objectively as good or better in most areas. The foreign makes just aren't the economic equivalent, the real numbers don't support it and probably never will. If they did then I'd see it as equivalents.
I've never seen a true, objective, economic analysis of a purchase of a Malibu vs. a Fusion vs. an Accord vs. a Camry vs. a Sonata vs. an Altima, etc. Some are made in America, some aren't. Some have high domestic parts contents, some don't. Some have corporations traditionally headquartered in the United States, some don't. Some are made in union shops, some aren't.
And by a "true and objective" analysis, I don't mean an emotion-enflamed rant about, "well if you don't understand you never will!" THAT type of attitude doesn't make a convert out of anyone. I'd like to see an honest and fair economic analysis that measures the benefit to the United States produced by the purchase of any of these cars.
Edit: take a Camry and a Fusion (since you brought those up). The Camry is built in Kentucky, with an 80% domestic parts content. The Fusion is built in Mexico, with what I understand to be a 30% domestic parts content. From everything I’ve read, it’s short of 50%, and some sources say 30%. The Fusion may still be more beneficial to the United States. Again, I’d like to see a fair analysis. But you can clearly see the conclusion that most would come to here. Either way, if Ford’s going to get the credit for building an “American” car in the Fusion, I’d like to see a little more effort on their part to hire American workers to part and build the thing.
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The only domestic vehicles that I would currently contemplate buying are a used Jeep TJ Rubicon or a new Mustang GT with the Brembo package. Nothing else from the domestic automakers appeals to me in the slightest. Different strokes, as they say...
Well the info is out there. The media doesn't have much incentive to provide it but it's out there. The problem is just like with the bailouts which currently suggest it was a net gain some some will attack the source or skate around the numbers with no real intention of discovering the real facts. Like I said the numbers are out there if even by piece meal.
Likewise I would like someone to show me foreign makes are the economic equivalent. The numbers don't seem to show it at all. Take Honda in Ohio one of the poster childs, it has not been near equivalent to Ford or GM in Ohio with temporary workers or for the regular employees in the number of jobs, production and supplier facilities or pay and benefits. Here is one site that cover it http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/
Likewise I would like someone to show me foreign makes are the economic equivalent. The numbers don't seem to show it at all. Take Honda in Ohio one of the poster childs, it has not been near equivalent to Ford or GM in Ohio with temporary workers or for the regular employees in the number of jobs, production and supplier facilities or pay and benefits. Here is one site that cover it http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/
Originally Posted By: morris
what do you say to Joe Lunch Box that lives two doors down, when he looses his job he had at one of the big three for 20 years. and you have a car made out side the lower 48 sitting in your driveway. or a car maker that is headquartered outside the 48. but has a plant inside the lower 48 but is a non-union shop. dont get me wrong i was a union member for 32 years. and can, and do say things against the union. they are a necessary evil.
The funny thing is, until recently, when both GM and Toyota pulled out of the NUMMI plant, one of the top selling Toyota's was made by the UAW in the US.
However, for some reason, both GM and Toyota left that plant. So how can you blame Toyota when GM also left?
Toyota tried using UAW labor, and for some reason, decided it didn't work for them. They gave it a fair trial, after all NUMMI has been around since the early to mid 1980's. So it wasn't like they tried it a couple of years and ended it.
But then I don't think any of my neighbors are in manufacturing. They are in IT, or active duty military, or teachers, or banking and finance, etc.
The closest we have to union labor are a few CWA workers who work for AT&T. So what is that one or two out of thirty plus households in our subdivision?
what do you say to Joe Lunch Box that lives two doors down, when he looses his job he had at one of the big three for 20 years. and you have a car made out side the lower 48 sitting in your driveway. or a car maker that is headquartered outside the 48. but has a plant inside the lower 48 but is a non-union shop. dont get me wrong i was a union member for 32 years. and can, and do say things against the union. they are a necessary evil.
The funny thing is, until recently, when both GM and Toyota pulled out of the NUMMI plant, one of the top selling Toyota's was made by the UAW in the US.
However, for some reason, both GM and Toyota left that plant. So how can you blame Toyota when GM also left?
Toyota tried using UAW labor, and for some reason, decided it didn't work for them. They gave it a fair trial, after all NUMMI has been around since the early to mid 1980's. So it wasn't like they tried it a couple of years and ended it.
But then I don't think any of my neighbors are in manufacturing. They are in IT, or active duty military, or teachers, or banking and finance, etc.
The closest we have to union labor are a few CWA workers who work for AT&T. So what is that one or two out of thirty plus households in our subdivision?
Why does "Buy American" revolve around the automotive industry? Who's only buying American textiles and clothing? Only American appliances? Why do conversations focus our nationalism on an industry that can't behave themselves from the top management to the labor unions?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well the info is out there. The media doesn't have much incentive to provide it but it's out there.
Respectfully, that's not an answer. You guys are trying to convince others that even if you buy an American-made foreign nameplate, that's not the same. Saying "the info is out there" is a rather poor argument in my opinion. Show it to me. I can't find it.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Likewise I would like someone to show me foreign makes are the economic equivalent.
Me too. Fortunately, both of our questions can get answered at one time, if the analysis is there.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Here is one site that cover it http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/
I like that site, and what they're trying to do. I'm going to say that I do believe it fails the "objective" test, as it was founded by retired US auto workers, those who have a huge stake in what the public buys. It also looks at the situation very broadly. We're talking about individual purchases here. You brought up some very specific MODELS of vehicles, and rightly so. I'd say that most people cross-shop MODELS of vehicles, not MAKES of vehicles.
Well the info is out there. The media doesn't have much incentive to provide it but it's out there.
Respectfully, that's not an answer. You guys are trying to convince others that even if you buy an American-made foreign nameplate, that's not the same. Saying "the info is out there" is a rather poor argument in my opinion. Show it to me. I can't find it.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Likewise I would like someone to show me foreign makes are the economic equivalent.
Me too. Fortunately, both of our questions can get answered at one time, if the analysis is there.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Here is one site that cover it http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/
I like that site, and what they're trying to do. I'm going to say that I do believe it fails the "objective" test, as it was founded by retired US auto workers, those who have a huge stake in what the public buys. It also looks at the situation very broadly. We're talking about individual purchases here. You brought up some very specific MODELS of vehicles, and rightly so. I'd say that most people cross-shop MODELS of vehicles, not MAKES of vehicles.
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