Why I buy American

[KrisZ]

Why is everybody focusing on buying? Why are the buying decisions so important when for the last 50 years production has been outsourced overseas? Surely back then people were still buying a lot of American made goods, nobody could touch the big 3 in car sells and we made products ranging from everyday goods, to high end electronics to rocket ships, yet the outsourcing was starting to become the next business model.

It is only now that we can start seeing the effects of this model, but it was in the works for a long time.
So how come, all of the sudden, it's people's fault for not buying American? Outsourcing started when people were buying American made good.

All the companies that outsourced the jobs from US and Canada have been enjoying nicer bigger profits, while the consumers have to pay the same for the product.

If we don't start making stuff here, no buying will ever help us. After all the income to continuously buy stuff has to come from somewhere.

The truth is that we need laws that will make production in US and Canada profitable again for every day goods, not just cars, and high end products. Increase the tax for companies enjoying cheap oversea labor costs, introduce tariffs and import taxes. Basically do what every other developed country does to protect their market and workforce.

Blaming people for their buying decisions will do nothing, let people buy what they want, but make sure that production is profitable here and "punish" outsourcing for cheap labor by extra taxes.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Why does "Buy American" revolve around the automotive industry? Who's only buying American textiles and clothing? Only American appliances? Why do conversations focus our nationalism on an industry that can't behave themselves from the top management to the labor unions?



Well if you see that a domestic car as competitively priced or less expensive and equal quality and value, then you have a valid choice. You don't have that with textiles. Autos are a big purchase and historically provided good jobs and middle class income. What will end up happening and almost has is the auto industry could end up like the textile, electronics and other industries. First the sector labor is driven down so low that the jobs are almost worthless, then that not being good enough, finally outsourced. What industry will we have left?

 

[Steve S]

My opinion private sector unions are great. I try as possible to buy made in the USA though not always possible though. Also I try to buy the best quality for my dollars spent at one time for example Toyotas were a really good car for the money I have owned several. From working on fleet vehicles I found out overall the best could you call made in USA vehicles were Ford. so I bought Ford . In the Family fleet I have 2 Toyotas 2006 and 1996 p/u and 2 Fords . And the Fords are most impressive [2002 F250 with the diesel engine and a 2010 Focus] as the new Toyota doesn't seem as quite the value for the money spent. And I do not mean the lowest price. There are made in China parts on my daughters Focus, I would have to suggest better would be to pay the CEO made in China wages and add better quality parts on the cars.

 

[Steve S]

I forgot it is better to pay someone for making made in USA stuff rather than paying unemployment.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well the info is out there. The media doesn't have much incentive to provide it but it's out there.


Respectfully, that's not an answer. You guys are trying to convince others that even if you buy an American-made foreign nameplate, that's not the same. Saying "the info is out there" is a rather poor argument in my opinion. Show it to me. I can't find it.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Likewise I would like someone to show me foreign makes are the economic equivalent.


Me too. Fortunately, both of our questions can get answered at one time, if the analysis is there.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Here is one site that cover it http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/


I like that site, and what they're trying to do. I'm going to say that I do believe it fails the "objective" test, as it was founded by retired US auto workers, those who have a huge stake in what the public buys. It also looks at the situation very broadly. We're talking about individual purchases here. You brought up some very specific MODELS of vehicles, and rightly so. I'd say that most people cross-shop MODELS of vehicles, not MAKES of vehicles.



Here is one suggestion you can do that is fairly simple and you can trust your own data.

Take the total number of cars that GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda sell in America, readily available from third party sources.

Then take that total car number and divide it by the number of employees they have here in the USA.

The last time I did these calculations for myself it broke down something like this...from memory, not exact.

GM and Ford has about 70-75 employees for every 2,500 cars they sold in America.
Toyota and Honda had about 30-35 employees for every 2,500 cars they sold here.

And keep in mind, the efficiency equation is about the same these days. Since roughly 2006 or so, the man hours/vehicle amongst the major players are about the same. Right around 30 man hours per vehicle.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Many Union folks from the Rust Belt states fail to take any responsibility for their actions over the past 10-20-30 years.


Those states are losing population, too, to the point where many of them are losing congressional seats.

 

[motorguy222]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

take a Camry and a Fusion (since you brought those up). The Camry is built in Kentucky, with an 80% domestic parts content. The Fusion is built in Mexico, with what I understand to be a 30% domestic parts content. From everything I’ve read, it’s short of 50%, and some sources say 30%.


This is a little long.

The use of "domestic parts" is very misleading and I talked of this in an earlier post.

I live in Ky and it is well known for Toyota.It seems that many fall for the "domestic parts" fallacy when it comes to Toyota and most likely,any other foreign car company.Toyota and the other foreign companies do use a lot of parts that are technically made here but they are made by other foreign companies that came here for the sole purpose of supplying Toyota etc.

My state is a relly good example of this,my town and county are good examples of this.We have factories in my area that are foreign and came here because of Toyota,they would have not came here if it had not been to supply,Toyota.Since they are here,the parts that are made are called,"domestic" even though they are foreign owned companies.

Now,one could say that these parts suppliers are domestic but they are not in the traditional sense,they are a foreign company that is operating in the US.

I know of a person that worked at what used to be a Hyster plant for many years.The plant was then bought by Yale and is now,NACCO.They have been affected terribly by NAFTA and foreign companies.They went from 3 shifts,then to two and four ten hour days and now they are down to one shift.They went from several hundred workers down to a few when you compare them to what used to work there.NACCO has closed plants and laid off hundreds of workers.

It seems clear that some here either dont care or dont really understand that they are truly hurting the American worker when they by a foreign product.I know that there are things that people buy that you have no choice but to get a foreign product,electronics for example.

Each manufacturing job that is lost is most likely gone for good,if not for good,it is going to be a lower paying job than it was.When manufacturing losses jobs,so do those that are around them.Grocery stores and any other business in that area will also lose money and they too may have to lay off workers.

When manufacturing lets workers go,it has a ripple effect.

Lets have an example here.

Those that have posted here have or had some type of job.Lets do some thinking here.The job you have/had gets a very good foreign competitor that has a reasonably good product at a lower cost than you,people start buying the competition and your compnay feels the results.They make some changes and are able to compete and do well.

Your foreign competitor then builds a couple of plants in the US.They now claim that they use 85% domestic products to make their product,even though their suppliers are also foreign companies that have moved here soley to supply your competition.

The foreign compnay now has plants here,they have their suppliers here and they make a good product.

Now,each time someone buys your comps. product,you are that much closer to losing your job.

It also hurts your suppliers because they no longer get as much business from your company and they may have to close.

Your suppliers go as far as trying to supply your competitor but they brought their major suppliers with them.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Out of all the cars I`ve owned,my only gripe with American made cars,were that that always had unfixable electical problems


I've found that whatever electrical problems I've had with American made cars are quite fixable, and I've fixed electrical problems with cars that I've bought used that the previous owners never bothered to fix. Not a single one of them actually had any serious electrical problems, either--just minor problems that it actually took some diagnostic work and studying the wiring diagram to find.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Here is one suggestion you can do that is fairly simple and you can trust your own data.


Hey there, I appreciate your reply.

I think it's a little more complex than that, though. That only looks at total jobs of a manufacturer. I'm interested in a per-car basis, because obviously each individual vehicle is going to be wildly different. Even with the same manufacturer and even with the same car line. For example, I'd wager that a Camry built in Japan would have a much different economic impact than a Camry built in Kentucky. Just like a Ford built in Mexico would likely have a much different economic impact than a Ford built in Lansing.

I'm afraid that the variables are so many, and the situation so complex, that one can't draw a single line in the sand, where one side of the line is "good" and one side is "bad".

 

[LS2JSTS]

Agreed, it only provides one aspect of a very large issue. Like I said, here is "one" way to look at it. But what it does do is reflect the total impact between different companies. For individual models, that would likely be a different story, as you point out.

For an individual trying to do the "best" thing for his/her personal buying, I can see where the specificity would be desireable. But it doesnt negate the fact that Ford and GM support a much larger sub section of Americans on a per car sold here basis.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: motorguy222
This is a little long.


That's okay, I appreciate your reply!

Originally Posted By: motorguy222
My state is a relly good example of this,my town and county are good examples of this.We have factories in my area that are foreign and came here because of Toyota,they would have not came here if it had not been to supply,Toyota.Since they are here,the parts that are made are called,"domestic" even though they are foreign owned companies.


You can look at this another way, though. Sure, a company may have foreign ownership, or a foreign parent. So many companies do these days, it's hard to keep track of it. But I hope the fact that they've come to the United States to produce parts isn't overlooked. Purolator filters is the same situation. They have a plant right here in Fayetteville, NC. I will admit that I prefer to buy Purolator filters because those sales directly impact a number of people I know. Three or four people at church work at Purolator. Purolator is a "foreign" company. But they invest money here in plant maintenance and expansion. And they hire workers here to build their product.

In your example, buying a Toyota product supports your community because of the workers used to build the cars. And it supports your community because of the workers used to make the parts. Sure, maybe the "made in USA" shift knob is made by an Indian company. Or an Indonesian company. Or a German company. But at least it's a "made in USA" shift knob.

One of the other major choices in the segment is a Ford Fusion, which is not built in the United States, and which does not use a high content of domestic parts. Yes, Ford employs more people than Toyota does. I got that. But if my choice is between a Fusion and a Camry, I'm not sure the economic impact balance is so cut-and-dry.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
But it doesnt negate the fact that Ford and GM support a much larger sub section of Americans on a per car sold here basis.


I totally agree with that. Those facts are not deniable.

But as we also agree, the variables on a model-by-model basis can be complex. For this reason, I hope we can get past the notion that any given Ford/GM/Chrysler purchase has by definition a "better" impact on the economy than any given Toyota/Honda/Nissan purchase. In some cases, it will be true (and I'd even go along with it being true in more than 50% of the time). But in some cases, it will not be.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Agreed...just make the percentage more like 80%.

Ever notice how often the Fusion gets brought up? I know there are other cars assembled in Mexico, but it's like a lightening rod. But in reality, there are far more cars assembled in the US/Canada than there are in Mexico. And there are many more cars built offshore for import than there are built here by the transplants. That is a fact that can't be denied. The 50 cars with the least domestic content, were all built by foreign makes offshore.

I think the big picture is important. But I completely agree, that in some cases, like the Fusion, the lines get blurred. Thats why we domestic supporters get to hear about the Fusion so often. Or the HHR.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Ever notice how often the Fusion gets brought up? I know there are other cars assembled in Mexico, but it's like a lightening rod.


I think it's a relevant discussion (though you'll note that I didn't originally raise the example of the Fusion/Camry/Accord/Malibu market segment). Like you I'm sure, I'm hoping that Ford move production of the Fusion to the United States, and up its content of domestic-sourced parts. The Fusion is a very competitive player in one of the largest market segments (midsize sedans), and it's one of Ford's most successful products. It gets a lot of attention, from both sides of the coin.

I have the same wish of Japanese makers. Every Highlander and Prius, for example, used to be made in Japan. I believe that if Toyota wants to sell the Prius here, they need to build it here. I know there are Honda and Nissan examples as well.

 

[LS2JSTS]

You would be glad to hear Ford has already announced plans to move all Focus production for NA consumption to Wayne MI. Hermosillo used to assemble the hatchbacks. Also, in the next two years they will move production of the Transit Connect from the EU to the US. The Fusion, I don't think so, and really I don't care. Ford assembles and employs a huge number of Americans, and Mexicans buy a huge number of Ford vehicles...I honestly have no problem with SOME production being offshored. It's been that way since 1904, it's just smart business.

Bottom line is...I think it's unreasonable to expect any manufacturer to build all their cars in their home market. I don't begrudge Toyota importing whole cars into this market and I cut GM and Ford the same slack. Building at the point of sale or close to it is smart. Henry Ford was building plants all over the planet as soon as he had the money to do so...and it payed off, for him, for us and the foreign countries.

 

[GMFan]

The most American and patriotic thing is buying a car based on the principles of competition...based on quality, refinement and whether it suits your needs.

Perhaps the most 'un-American' thing is attacking those who do what any sensible person does with their money...spend it how THEY see fit.

GM paid back the bailout with other funds from the treasury...taxpayer funds. Fact.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/business/02gret.html?_r=1

 

[mechanicx]

The problem with trying to decide model by model which car has the most domestic economic impact would be difficult and actually futile. Where it is assembled and domestic parts content are important, but there's no way getting around economic impact Ford still has over the imports. You have ownership of the maker, ownership of the parts suppliers (this is where foreign ones can blur the issue), research and development, and all the legacy employees and retirees the Domestics support who in turn support the economy. Has the foreign companies provided one retirement?

If you could calculate all those numbers you'd probably find, and say probably because I don't have the numbers attributal by individual model and don't know anyone who has, that a Mexican assembled Fusion with lower domestic parts content has a better domestic economical impact than say a Toyota or Honda domestically assembled car with higher domestic parts content.

While you don't have the total economic impact model by model. What you do have is the overall numbers and they clearly show Ford has a better economic impact than Toyota and the Fusion contibutes to that.

The location of assembly and parts content do not tell the whole economic story. If that is really a concern, then you have the Malibu, assembled in the US by an US owned company with about 80% domestic parts content.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: GMFan
The most American and patriotic thing is buying a car based on the principles of competition...based on quality, refinement and whether it suits your needs.

Perhaps the most 'un-American' thing is attacking those who do what any sensible person does with their money...spend it how THEY see fit.

GM paid back the bailout with other funds from the treasury...taxpayer funds. Fact.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/business/02gret.html?_r=1


Fact from Feb 2010...the TARP fund repayment has nothing to do with the 49.5 billion dollar loan. That was the loan given directly as cash to GM from the Treasury. It was secured differently, and GM did repay it with federal funds, only because they didn't project needing them at the time. Bottom line is the feds got their money back, becuse GM didn't need it, would you rather they just kept it? But don't let facts or recent events get in your way.

And FTR, could you please point to any post I've made on this topic where I've tried to berate someone for what they buy, or who they choose to buy from? Please, show me where I "attack" others for their choices. Talk about a straw man.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: GMFan
The most American and patriotic thing is buying a car based on the principles of competition...based on quality, refinement and whether it suits your needs.

Perhaps the most 'un-American' thing is attacking those who do what any sensible person does with their money...spend it how THEY see fit.


Better words have, perhaps, never been written on BITOG.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: GMFan
The most American and patriotic thing is buying a car based on the principles of competition...based on quality, refinement and whether it suits your needs.

Perhaps the most 'un-American' thing is attacking those who do what any sensible person does with their money...spend it how THEY see fit.


Precisely! I couldn't care less what kind of car/truck anyone else buys. As for where it's made, how big/small, bad/good fuel economy- it's not my purchase or my business- and all I ask is that people accord me the same courtesy...