Wouldn't critical, but updatable-on-demand data more likely be stored in NVRAM?
Why does Honda recommend 10k OCI?
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Any one doing oil changes every 7,500 miles or greater is going to have a sludge up engine.
If they tell you they claim they don't have a sludge up engine at or above 40,000 miles on it is pulling your leg.
Geez, here we go again making blanket statements that aren't true.quote:
Originally posted by Johnson994:
Any one doing oil changes every 7,500 miles or greater is going to have a sludge up engine.If they tell you they claim they don't have a sludge up engine at or above 40,000 miles on it is pulling your leg.
26 years of hands on experience to back up my facts.quote:
Originally posted by AndyH:
Geez, here we go again making blanket statements that aren't true.quote:
Originally posted by Johnson994:
Any one doing oil changes every 7,500 miles or greater is going to have a sludge up engine.If they tell you they claim they don't have a sludge up engine at or above 40,000 miles on it is pulling your leg.
ROTFL
Hang around these boards a bit longer, (and not just one forum) read and digest as much as you can and see if you can make a blanket statement like that in a few weeks to a few months time.
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Johnson994,
Do you think that as a retired auto tech you are qualified to make such a blanket statement? Some of us have been driving quite a long while with such OCIs without any sludge problem. I check under my valve covers as part of routine maintainance and so I know better than that.
Do you think that as a retired auto tech you are qualified to make such a blanket statement? Some of us have been driving quite a long while with such OCIs without any sludge problem. I check under my valve covers as part of routine maintainance and so I know better than that.
Well, since Honda's making no requiremement regarding synthetic motor oil with their 10,000 mile oil and 20,000 mile oil filter change intervals, I guess we'll know in another couple of years, eh, AndyH? Lost in all these blind faith vs. dire predicament opinions is one thing no one has touched on: namely what're the suggested oil viscosity recommendations and oil change intervals in Japan homeland cars? (Personally, where my wallet meets my butt, I refuse to be a paying guinea pig.)
I don't doubt that at all. But don't truck engines typically have a MUCH larger oil sump capacity, tend to operate in the upper end of their power band (though at a much lower RPM range than automobile or light truck engines), and use a very stout additive package in their motor oils? If we're gonna make comparisons, why not consider 10,000+ RPM Formula race engines. Do they run more than one several hour race on the same fill?
Yes, I am qualified to make such statements. I seen it too many times. The same people that brag about how long they go with out an oil change. I have a smile from ear to ear when they are bragging while their engine is running and making the noises of neglect. The lovely low pitch knock or the ticking noise like a time bomb or the famous typewriter sound. I laugh when they get an emission inspection and it fails. All because they knew better. The best is when you see them with a new car and ask them what happen to the old one. Kaboom! I rather pay a little $ now than a lot $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ later.
actually, pure race oils can't run for extended periods as they use very little to no detergents in the add package to reduce the risk of detonation. Redline, for one, warn against their pure race oils in road vehicles for this very reason.
I regularly use 15-20,000km OCI's in my four wheel drives, but I am using D1, and I'm pretty sure Doug uses a 20,000km OCI in his Porsche 928 using D1. Not sure what his factory OCI is in his new MB which is using M1 0W-40, but I'm pretty sure it is at least 15,000km/9300miles. (but it is a synth
[ October 06, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: tdi-rick ]
valid point, yet for years here, the standard OCI on most vehicles has been 10000km/6000miles.
Over the last twenty three years I've been driving, I've always ran my vehicles out to there at least, and for the first ten years, they were (premium) dino lubes. A couple of those engines were pulled down at various times, a Jeep 232ci 6cyl, a Toyota 4cyl, and a Holden V8 had the rocker covers off several times, and each engine was exceptionally clean.
Of course I've also seen engines sludged up so badly they've seized, and invariably the owner was using the cheapest oil they could buy, and only changing it when they thought to (probably every two years)
Oil technology has leaped ahead so much in the last decade, it is quite amazing.
Oh, and to the best of my knowledge, Honda specs 10w-30 here and in Japan. OCI's I'm not sure of, but a friend has a Euro Accord, so I can find out.
No, you're not, for at least two (and probably many more) reasons. First, any good experienced tech would know that whether and when an engine might sludge depends upon many factors. Some engines, under the "right" conditions, might well sludge with oil used for just a few thousand miles. Others will go for a very long time with no problem.quote:
Originally posted by Johnson994:
Yes, I am qualified to make such statements. I seen it too many times. The same people that brag about how long they go with out an oil change. I have a smile from ear to ear when they are bragging while their engine is running and making the noises of neglect. The lovely low pitch knock or the ticking noise like a time bomb or the famous typewriter sound. I laugh when they get an emission inspection and it fails. All because they knew better. The best is when you see them with a new car and ask them what happen to the old one. Kaboom! I rather pay a little $ now than a lot $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ later.
Second, your obvious unwillingness to see obvious facts strongly suggests your lack of qualification to make such judgments. As with good doctors, good auto mechanics look for all the facts, and then work to reach conclusions that fit with all the facts. In stark contrast, you see a couple bad cases, ignore those that don't fit your hastily drawn conclusions, and assume that all cars will react the same way, no matter what.
So, I guess I've been halucinating when I listen to and look at my longer drain engines -- how smoothly they run and how shiny the metal is inside of them. Gosh, maybe I'm just pulling everyone's leg. . .
The bottom line, though, is that I trust the Honda engineers, who have both some education, and a reputation to protect, over one mechanic with a narrow point of view and an attitude to go with it. They're spec-ing 10k miles because Hondas used within the stated parameters will live a long, happy life on that OCI.
Hmmm... Then does Honda employ seperate engineers to write the motor oil specs. for the American market (where 5W-20 is spec'd) than those who spec. 10W-30 in the same engines destined for Japan and Australia? Might marketing and CAFE issues have more to do with this p**-thin motor oil recommendation decision for American-bound cars than long-life engine protection?
And now, it looks like Toyota is poised to take the 20 wt plunge too, apparently having already done so for its Japanese domestic market cars. Check this out. In this instance, maybe they decided to let the JDM buyers "beta test" the theory before sending the idea to the 'States.
I was referring to the duration of oil use, not specifically the grade specified. But since you mention it, I have to admit that the data on the 20 wts looks pretty solid. Personally, however, I'm not comfortable with it, regardless. I do find it interesting that Honda allows a little crack in the otherwise exception free "use only 20" policy, in the Ridgeline's towing clause. I don't own any 20 spec cars, and I don't plan to buy any in the foreseeable future, so I'm on the sidelines of this argument, but again, those 20 wt UOAs look pretty good so far. And, I've yet to hear of the beginning of the wave of early engine deaths that must surely be in the offing if 20s are really that bad. For light passenger use, they're probably just as good as any 30 wt oil, but of course, time will tell.
One more thing, giving this some more thought, I might have been a tad rough on Johnson in my last post. While I stand by the basic premise of my post, I will agree that if he practiced his craft in NYC for all those years, his view of oil life may well be skewed. His customers were likely exposed to excessive doses of stop-and-go driving, short trips, and very cold weather for much of the year. That said, however, there are plenty of folks who don't see anything like those conditions. Though unusual, I've driven almost 3,000 miles in the last three weeks, virtually all of it at a steady ~80 mph on the interstate. Do I need to run dump my barely-discolored, 5k mile GC right now??? I doubt it. . .
What makes you such an expert?quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
No, you're not, for at least two (and probably many more) reasons. First, any good experienced tech would know that whether and when an engine might sludge depends upon many factors. Some engines, under the "right" conditions, might well sludge with oil used for just a few thousand miles. Others will go for a very long time with no problem.quote:
Originally posted by Johnson994:
Yes, I am qualified to make such statements. I seen it too many times. The same people that brag about how long they go with out an oil change. I have a smile from ear to ear when they are bragging while their engine is running and making the noises of neglect. The lovely low pitch knock or the ticking noise like a time bomb or the famous typewriter sound. I laugh when they get an emission inspection and it fails. All because they knew better. The best is when you see them with a new car and ask them what happen to the old one. Kaboom! I rather pay a little $ now than a lot $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ later.
Second, your obvious unwillingness to see obvious facts strongly suggests your lack of qualification to make such judgments. As with good doctors, good auto mechanics look for all the facts, and then work to reach conclusions that fit with all the facts. In stark contrast, you see a couple bad cases, ignore those that don't fit your hastily drawn conclusions, and assume that all cars will react the same way, no matter what.
So, I guess I've been halucinating when I listen to and look at my longer drain engines -- how smoothly they run and how shiny the metal is inside of them. Gosh, maybe I'm just pulling everyone's leg. . .
The bottom line, though, is that I trust the Honda engineers, who have both some education, and a reputation to protect, over one mechanic with a narrow point of view and an attitude to go with it. They're spec-ing 10k miles because Hondas used within the stated parameters will live a long, happy life on that OCI.
10,000 mile oil changes are the norm over here in Europe and have been since in the early 1980s.
I have run several cars, including high powered & turbo engines on semi-synth oil on approx 10,000 mile OCI with no ill effects. I also know people who drive cars & light vans/trucks (gas & diesel) for a living and some of them are doing 50,000+ per year on 10 to 12K OCI with no problems.
Also, as a regular reader of the motoring press and various technical/engineering publications, if so-called extended OCIs (what we call normal OCIs over here) were causing engine failures or other problems it would be well publicised, just as it is in the USA.
I have run several cars, including high powered & turbo engines on semi-synth oil on approx 10,000 mile OCI with no ill effects. I also know people who drive cars & light vans/trucks (gas & diesel) for a living and some of them are doing 50,000+ per year on 10 to 12K OCI with no problems.
Also, as a regular reader of the motoring press and various technical/engineering publications, if so-called extended OCIs (what we call normal OCIs over here) were causing engine failures or other problems it would be well publicised, just as it is in the USA.
My 1986 TBird with the v-6 says you are wrong on that. It was driven 18,000 to 20,000 miles a year with a yearly oil change of 10W30 Mobil 1, and when I sold it at 140,000 miles it was as clean and quiet running as a new one.quote:
Originally posted by Johnson994:
26 years of hands on experience to back up my facts.quote:
Originally posted by AndyH:
Geez, here we go again making blanket statements that aren't true.quote:
Originally posted by Johnson994:
Any one doing oil changes every 7,500 miles or greater is going to have a sludge up engine.If they tell you they claim they don't have a sludge up engine at or above 40,000 miles on it is pulling your leg.
My question is, why is this new M1 said to be good for only 15,000 miles?
Sounds to me like you do a lot of distance driving at highway speeds - easy runs for any motor oil. What I'd like to hear are the results from daily drivers hauling their kids back and forth to and from school and soccer practice, taking "Fluffy" to the vet, making grocery runs, and catching the sales at the mall - those stallwart souls who put 10,000 miles or more on their motor oil in urban crawl at four to six miles per day. Show me one of those engines free of sludge at 36,000 miles on conventional motor oil* and I'll be impressed.
*Remember - Honda's not specifiying synthetic oil in their OCI specification.
*Remember - Honda's not specifiying synthetic oil in their OCI specification.
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