Originally Posted By: rrounds
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: jfking106
High flow vs. high filtration.
I agree. Honda filters are high flow rather than high filtration, so they don't get loaded with particles quickly. Using high filtration filters changes that.
That is one more reason I run a oversize filter on my S2000. The Baldwin(B202) I use is a little over twice the size as the stock oil filter with well over twice the filter material inside, so I get better filtering with more flow.
ROD
Same density media and by-pass pressure setting I presume?
Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
well you heard my answer and we rebuild just about every engine there is and i have heard that many times over the years at engine seminars and classes given by the people who design and produce engines.
If 'dry' starts were such an issue, every engine should get primed after a filter change and each owners manual would insist that you change the filter LESS OFTEN.
Sorry, just not buying it as the reason for Honda's recommendation in the owners manual (which almost none of the Honda dealerships actually follow). Which also goes against that. If Honda corporate knew this was critical, they would issue a TSB to ensure that oil filters are not changed too often.
I just don't see the 'dry' start theory making any logical sense.
Then you aren't being logical. For those few seconds there is no oil pressure,its just that simple.
Now whether it does any actual damage may be in question though.
Yes the old oil has been drained however there is residual oil on everything since I expect everyone knows to change oil after driving.
So will that residual oil lubricate the engine enough for those few hundred revolutions before the few oil makes its way to the top end,I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary since I know of none that have proven accelerated wear for those seconds nor any that have seized waiting for oil pressure HOWEVER common sense does lead me to conclude that an engine running without proper lubrication will die. Not that any of this applies to my engines because they are all treated with MOS2,so a moment without oil will not affect my engines in any negative way however I can understand the principle behind the thought.
I think a dry start would affect the bearings moreso than the valve train anyway. They depend on oil for cooling and the hydrodynamic wedge it creates,the valve train can spin a bit before no oil becomes an issue and iirc most ohc engines lubricate the top end with an oil mist anyways. So there really isn't a drenching of oil to begin with.
Any common name brand filter can do 10000 miles easy,its just that simple,on a clean,well maintained engine. To believe otherwise is fine,and its your money,spend it how you see fit. But when your broke,living on a shoestring budget,or your paycheques are funded by the taxpayer,and you've got to allocate the funds for that unnecessary extra filter used every 5000 miles from the grocery budget,it might be a good time to re-evaluate those old beliefs and try to make an informed decision. Heck I'm not broke but I'm not going to spend unnecessarily if I don't need to,and dnewtons data says I don't need to.
Especially when there are some really smart guys saying that it can be done.
If Dnewton is doing 10000 mile drains on supermarket brand oil and a bottom tier filter,and the data he has acquired proves that his insols are acceptable(that means filtration is adequate) then I personally cannot fathom why wouldn't a sensible person learn from the data he has shared and paid for so the forum's benefit.
If you've got a new to you engine and cannot confirm engine cleanliness then of course err on the side of caution,but if you've got a motor that is well maintained and its internals are spotless why not save a buck and run the filter for 10000 miles.
If dnewtons insols were high that would tell me the filter has gone beyond its useable life and is now in by-pass and not filtering effectively then that data would have me shortening my filter change interval and those here running 5000 mile filter changes could sing to the heavens with "I told you so". But the data is proving otherwise,so why not benefit from it. Heck,since I'm using mid to upper tier filters I could likely do 20000 mile intervals but I draw the line at 15000. To go further than that I'd need to step up to an ultra and no way am I paying. 15 bucks a filter.
Do whatever you want guys,it ain't my money your spending.
So to summarize I am saying that a 5000 mile FCI is a waste IF the engine is in a bitogers approved state of cleanliness and tune.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: jfking106
High flow vs. high filtration.
I agree. Honda filters are high flow rather than high filtration, so they don't get loaded with particles quickly. Using high filtration filters changes that.
That is one more reason I run a oversize filter on my S2000. The Baldwin(B202) I use is a little over twice the size as the stock oil filter with well over twice the filter material inside, so I get better filtering with more flow.
ROD
Same density media and by-pass pressure setting I presume?
Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
well you heard my answer and we rebuild just about every engine there is and i have heard that many times over the years at engine seminars and classes given by the people who design and produce engines.
If 'dry' starts were such an issue, every engine should get primed after a filter change and each owners manual would insist that you change the filter LESS OFTEN.
Sorry, just not buying it as the reason for Honda's recommendation in the owners manual (which almost none of the Honda dealerships actually follow). Which also goes against that. If Honda corporate knew this was critical, they would issue a TSB to ensure that oil filters are not changed too often.
I just don't see the 'dry' start theory making any logical sense.
Then you aren't being logical. For those few seconds there is no oil pressure,its just that simple.
Now whether it does any actual damage may be in question though.
Yes the old oil has been drained however there is residual oil on everything since I expect everyone knows to change oil after driving.
So will that residual oil lubricate the engine enough for those few hundred revolutions before the few oil makes its way to the top end,I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary since I know of none that have proven accelerated wear for those seconds nor any that have seized waiting for oil pressure HOWEVER common sense does lead me to conclude that an engine running without proper lubrication will die. Not that any of this applies to my engines because they are all treated with MOS2,so a moment without oil will not affect my engines in any negative way however I can understand the principle behind the thought.
I think a dry start would affect the bearings moreso than the valve train anyway. They depend on oil for cooling and the hydrodynamic wedge it creates,the valve train can spin a bit before no oil becomes an issue and iirc most ohc engines lubricate the top end with an oil mist anyways. So there really isn't a drenching of oil to begin with.
Any common name brand filter can do 10000 miles easy,its just that simple,on a clean,well maintained engine. To believe otherwise is fine,and its your money,spend it how you see fit. But when your broke,living on a shoestring budget,or your paycheques are funded by the taxpayer,and you've got to allocate the funds for that unnecessary extra filter used every 5000 miles from the grocery budget,it might be a good time to re-evaluate those old beliefs and try to make an informed decision. Heck I'm not broke but I'm not going to spend unnecessarily if I don't need to,and dnewtons data says I don't need to.
Especially when there are some really smart guys saying that it can be done.
If Dnewton is doing 10000 mile drains on supermarket brand oil and a bottom tier filter,and the data he has acquired proves that his insols are acceptable(that means filtration is adequate) then I personally cannot fathom why wouldn't a sensible person learn from the data he has shared and paid for so the forum's benefit.
If you've got a new to you engine and cannot confirm engine cleanliness then of course err on the side of caution,but if you've got a motor that is well maintained and its internals are spotless why not save a buck and run the filter for 10000 miles.
If dnewtons insols were high that would tell me the filter has gone beyond its useable life and is now in by-pass and not filtering effectively then that data would have me shortening my filter change interval and those here running 5000 mile filter changes could sing to the heavens with "I told you so". But the data is proving otherwise,so why not benefit from it. Heck,since I'm using mid to upper tier filters I could likely do 20000 mile intervals but I draw the line at 15000. To go further than that I'd need to step up to an ultra and no way am I paying. 15 bucks a filter.
Do whatever you want guys,it ain't my money your spending.
So to summarize I am saying that a 5000 mile FCI is a waste IF the engine is in a bitogers approved state of cleanliness and tune.
