Why are the best American cars European?

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
With strut suspension, the wheels and the tires mounted to them follow the roll of the body, so while the outside wheels are more heavily loaded, they also have positive camber, which is undersirable.



No, the outside wheel gets NEGATIVE camber (the top of the strut is further inboard than the bottom of the strut, when it compresses, the wheel develops NEGATIVE camber, NOT positive camber) in a corner, which ensures a larger contact patch and the tire is rolling over less on the sidewall.

The INSIDE wheel develops POSITIVE camber due to the extension of the strut and body roll, and this provides the same effect, a larger contact patch as the camber angle is articulated against the roll of the body through the turn keeping the outside edge of the tire in contact with the road surface, versus rolling over on the inside edge, which is what it would try to do.


This is a normal strategy on German cars, and one of the most desirable features of a premium design. The alignment of the wheel to the road is managed throughout the entire travel of the wheel.

This is one of the secrets to car design, tuning the suspension is more important than anything!

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
This is a normal strategy on German cars, and one of the most desirable features of a premium design. The alignment of the wheel to the road is managed throughout the entire travel of the wheel.

This is one of the secrets to car design, tuning the suspension is more important than anything!

Not on the older VW bug rears.

I state-inspected this audi that had a real trick upper A-arm, some sort of dual ball joint design? Anyway when you pay more money you get some trick stuff.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I think the fact that camber changes with travel in a McPherson setup may in fact be leveraged as a positive trait if the suspension is designed properly. IE, compression of the strut through the turn creates a change in camber that prevents the tire from rolling over on the side and keeps more of the contact patch/tread surface on the road, whilst the other side, where the strut is stretching out, is experiencing the opposite effect on it's camber, providing the same characteristic, but relative to the inside edge of the tire.

That happens but IMO doesn't seem to as much as a short-long arm double wishbone setup. Maybe if they really cranked up the caster on a MacPherson it might sort of put more weight on the inside (of the curve) edges of the front tires.

Or maybe b/c macphersons are so cheap they go on everyday cars that are engineered to understeer so jane doe doesn't spin out when she loses attention. Ergo a cart/horse situation.

My volvo 940 has macphersons in the front and a coil spring live axle in the back and really handles pretty okay.

So have my all strut taurus and contour.

I autocrossed a 240, with struts, but the strut cartridge was replaceabe (like the early Gen 3 Camry) and I had Bilsteins installed. Still had to take the bleepin' thing apart to cnange the damper.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Daewoo played the leading role in the development of the Cruze. The Koreans have been really dynamic lately. Not just GM's success with the Cruze and Sonic (and possibly the Spark/Matiz)and Sangyup Lee's Camaro design, but also Hyundai and Kia.

Holden is Australian.

Furthermore, the 2006-2012 Ford Fusion is Mazda6 based. The Fiesta is European based but Mazda engineers were utilized.

It's not just Europe. The rest of the world is involved too.

American car design was really good for a long time. I mean if gas is .10 cents a gallon, which would you buy? a 1963 Chevrolet Impala 283 or a Opel Reckord 1.5? We just didn't adapt well to changing times.

But don't despair. The US still leads the world in designing fullsize pickups.

If gas was $.10 a gallon, I'd get a 500CID Cadillac!

The Spark is getting REALLY popular around here, at least. I am seeing them everywhere.

They are kinda ... erm ... cute. I wouldn't mind taking one fora test drive. Wonder how they are going to do in the snow?

While the new Sonic is essentially an Aveo, but made much nicer, the Aveo was kinda a flop ... not good at anything. I really like the new sonic and I could see myself getting one

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
While the new Sonic is essentially an Aveo, but made much nicer, the Aveo was kinda a flop ... not good at anything. I really like the new sonic and I could see myself getting one

The Sonic is built on GM's Gamma II global platform that was co-developed by GM Korea and Opel. The original Aveo was built on a pre-GM Daewoo platform developed by Daewoo when they were still an independent automaker. While the Sonic might have been designed in Korea like the Aveo, it's a different car riding on different underpinnings. And, unlike the old Aveo, the new one got a thorough schooling from Opel. So, it's not merely a "made nicer" old Aveo.

The Spark uses a 1.2 liter engine developed by Daewoo and Suzuki that GM got their hands on when they purchased Daewoo.

How's that for complicated corporate relationships?

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog

It's not just Europe. The rest of the world is involved too.


Correct. That's why I said "European or world cars" in my original post.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

And to my knowledge the CTS/ATS have no Holden roots. Please provide a link?


The ATS is on GM's Alpha platform according to Wikipedia. Also according to Wikipedia, the Alpha platform has roots in Holden's TT36 Torana concept.

The original CTS is on GM's Sigma platform. According to Wikipedia, the Sigma platform development began at Holden as the Global World Rear Drive platform.

The new generation CTS is built on GM's Sigma II platform, which Wikipedia says shares many parts with the Holden-designed Zeta platform. The Chevy Camaro also uses the Zeta platform, so it could also be included in the list of cool American cars that at least have roots in the global market.

 

[morris]

as allways people think that the cars they have owned are the best. i know i do. i havent owned ALL the cars, so i think my cars / trucks i have owned are the best.

 

[fdcg27]

This explains the inboard cant of the struts on the BMW, as well as the two Accords and the Forester.
Never really paid attention to it before, and never thought that there was a good reason for it.
You learn something here on a regular basis.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
The Sonic is built on GM's Gamma II global platform that was co-developed by GM Korea and Opel. The original Aveo was built on a pre-GM Daewoo platform developed by Daewoo when they were still an independent automaker. While the Sonic might have been designed in Korea like the Aveo, it's a different car riding on different underpinnings. And, unlike the old Aveo, the new one got a thorough schooling from Opel. So, it's not merely a "made nicer" old Aveo.

The Spark uses a 1.2 liter engine developed by Daewoo and Suzuki that GM got their hands on when they purchased Daewoo.

How's that for complicated corporate relationships?

I'm still scratching my head :S

So, does that mean it's going to be a good car or not?

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: Miller88


While the new Sonic is essentially an Aveo, but made much nicer, the Aveo was kinda a flop ... not good at anything. I really like the new sonic and I could see myself getting one


The Sonic is built on GM's Gamma II global platform that was co-developed by GM Korea and Opel. The original Aveo was built on a pre-GM Daewoo platform developed by Daewoo when they were still an independent automaker. While the Sonic might have been designed in Korea like the Aveo, it's a different car riding on different underpinnings. And, unlike the old Aveo, the new one got a thorough schooling from Opel. So, it's not merely a "made nicer" old Aveo.

The Spark uses a 1.2 liter engine developed by Daewoo and Suzuki that GM got their hands on when they purchased Daewoo.

How's that for complicated corporate relationships?


I'm still scratching my head :S

So, does that mean it's going to be a good car or not?


I've been impressed with my Cruze that was another product of the GM Korea/Opel design marriage, so based on that experience, I'd say the Sonic should be a decent car. It shares enough Cruze parts like the engines, some transmissions, and a lot of brake and suspension bits (IIRC).

I'd get the 1.4T engine since it's a lot more refined and fuel-efficient than the coarse and thirsty 1.8. 40+ mpg highway should be readily doable in that car with the 1.4T.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: FowVay
Kiss French,
Dress Italian,
Drive German.

Kiss French,
Dress Italian,
Rent German.
Own Japanese.....

 

[Zako2]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
The best cars today (of most all brands) tend to be based on European or world models. Cars like the Cruze, cars like the Malibu, cars like Volvo-based or Ford of Europe-based Fords, cars like the ATS/CTS with Holden-rooted chassis, etc.

I would disagree. Ford moved away from Volvo a long time ago. In any case, not much was taken from Volvo. The Ford 500 and its Taurus derivative would hardly considered a "European" car IMO even though it might have shared something with a Volvo S80. Granted, the new Ford Focus and Fusion are indeed based on a global platforms. I don't know how European is the new Malibu, but the 2013 version has already been strongly criticized by automotive press.

In fact, the number of examples of foreign car makers selling "Americanized" cars exceeds the American cars with European influence by far. BMW still has not brought its 1-series hatchback to America. Honda's North American Accord is much bigger than the European accord. The European Accord is sold as Acura TSX, and it doesn't sell that well. The best example is probably Volkswagen. Volkswagen for years tried and failed to sell its Euro cars in large numbers here. Finally, they came up with the latest seriously Americanized Passat and Jetta specially for the US market and they actually sell well (they could be sold in some other markets too). Most Europeans brands are chasing American consumers hard with their CUVs.

The mainstream American consumer does seem to have different tastes. Looking at the cars that sell well in America, they want three things in car: big, bland, and cheap. Fuel economy has started working its way into this equation. The lifestyle is quite different here. Commute times are long (hence, the need for big comphy car which must come with a good cup holder) and in many places, you pretty much have to have a car for every adult person in a household.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Zako2
I would disagree. Ford moved away from Volvo a long time ago. In any case, not much was taken from Volvo. The Ford 500 and its Taurus derivative would hardly considered a "European" car IMO even though it might have shared something with a Volvo S80. Granted, the new Ford Focus and Fusion are indeed based on a global platforms. I don't know how European is the new Malibu, but the 2013 version has already been strongly criticized by automotive press.


I've heard that the Ford Taurus/500/Freestyle platform is largely a Volvo platform underneath. G-man's review of his new-to-him Taurus X remarked how solid it felt, owing to its Volvo roots (his comments).

I didn't know the 2013 Malibu has been panned that hard already.

Originally Posted By: Zako2
In fact, the number of examples of foreign car makers selling "Americanized" cars exceeds the American cars with European influence by far. BMW still has not brought its 1-series hatchback to America. Honda's North American Accord is much bigger than the European accord. The European Accord is sold as Acura TSX, and it doesn't sell that well. The best example is probably Volkswagen. Volkswagen for years tried and failed to sell its Euro cars in large numbers here. Finally, they came up with the latest seriously Americanized Passat and Jetta specially for the US market and they actually sell well (they could be sold in some other markets too). Most Europeans brands are chasing American consumers hard with their CUVs.


Interesting points, and I agree with you on Volkswagen. They certainly have found a lot of sales success recently with their up-sized American offerings.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: Miller88


While the new Sonic is essentially an Aveo, but made much nicer, the Aveo was kinda a flop ... not good at anything. I really like the new sonic and I could see myself getting one


The Sonic is built on GM's Gamma II global platform that was co-developed by GM Korea and Opel. The original Aveo was built on a pre-GM Daewoo platform developed by Daewoo when they were still an independent automaker. While the Sonic might have been designed in Korea like the Aveo, it's a different car riding on different underpinnings. And, unlike the old Aveo, the new one got a thorough schooling from Opel. So, it's not merely a "made nicer" old Aveo.

The Spark uses a 1.2 liter engine developed by Daewoo and Suzuki that GM got their hands on when they purchased Daewoo.

How's that for complicated corporate relationships?


I'm still scratching my head :S

So, does that mean it's going to be a good car or not?


I've been impressed with my Cruze that was another product of the GM Korea/Opel design marriage, so based on that experience, I'd say the Sonic should be a decent car. It shares enough Cruze parts like the engines, some transmissions, and a lot of brake and suspension bits (IIRC).

I'd get the 1.4T engine since it's a lot more refined and fuel-efficient than the coarse and thirsty 1.8. 40+ mpg highway should be readily doable in that car with the 1.4T.


I can routinely pull 45 out of my non-eco-anything Focus. I think the killer of the mileage on the sonics is the vertical hatch. I'd like to see what I can do with a 6 speed cruise-eco.

The turbo in exhaust manifold scares me, though.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

And to my knowledge the CTS/ATS have no Holden roots. Please provide a link?


The ATS is on GM's Alpha platform according to Wikipedia. Also according to Wikipedia, the Alpha platform has roots in Holden's TT36 Torana concept.

The original CTS is on GM's Sigma platform. According to Wikipedia, the Sigma platform development began at Holden as the Global World Rear Drive platform.

The new generation CTS is built on GM's Sigma II platform, which Wikipedia says shares many parts with the Holden-designed Zeta platform. The Chevy Camaro also uses the Zeta platform, so it could also be included in the list of cool American cars that at least have roots in the global market.


Thank you for the info. I thought you were referring to cars like the last GTO that were actually Holden designed and built.

I don't really agree that a concept car such as the TT36 Torana actually constitutes a Holden design truly contributing to the ATS, as we all know the tuning and setup is dynamically the most important part of the car. To my knowledge none of that was Holden based in any way.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
I can routinely pull 45 out of my non-eco-anything Focus. I think the killer of the mileage on the sonics is the vertical hatch. I'd like to see what I can do with a 6 speed cruise-eco.

The turbo in exhaust manifold scares me, though.

If you can get 45 routinely out of a Focus, you'd probably be looking at high 40's to low 50's with a Cruze Eco manual transmission.

The turbo in the exhaust manifold isn't as scary as I thought it would be. Turns out it's easy-peasy to replace the turbo itself, and not "that" expensive at $600 for a new turbo, including the exhaust manifold. It's also out in the open at the front of the engine, so servicing it appears to be pretty simple. At least the guys porting out the housing and putting on new wheels make it look only slightly harder than changing brake pads.

 

[Win]

Frankly, having had ( and still have ) Holden cars and european cars, I would rather have the Holden car.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I don't really agree that a concept car such as the TT36 Torana actually constitutes a Holden design truly contributing to the ATS, as we all know the tuning and setup is dynamically the most important part of the car. To my knowledge none of that was Holden based in any way.


I didn't intend to make light of any on-shore engineering or development work by GM in Detroit, which is why I stopped at "having roots in Holden chassis" rather than saying that it was Holden-developed or Holden-built like the GTO was.

 

[mpvue]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Kiss French,
Dress Italian,
Rent German.
Own Japanese.....

Eat American...