Why are European cars so problematic?

[coachditka]

The more I think about it and read some of these posts, the more I conclude that the European rubber and plastic are just sub standard possibly due to using recycled or "green" materials.

Most of the issues with our Volvo have had to do with rubber bushings (UCA, LCA), adhesives (headliner, door trim), plastics (door handles, radio knobs), and general rubber things (cv boot, motor mount).

All in under 80k miles.

The metal parts are pretty much solid, it's just the way they are attached with plastic and rubber!

 

[mclasser]

It seems like the Europeans just over-complicate things for no reason, especially electronics. For instance, many newer BMW's don't have oil dipsticks. The car instead uses a sensor to relay the oil level. So if this sensor goes bad one day and the owner doesn't know the oil's low, BMW is going to blame the owner for the engine damage. Many Euro cars also use plastic electronic water pumps that of course aren't going to last long. The dealer then hoses you on the labor costs because the pumps are located in hard-to-reach places in the engine. Pinhead engineering at its finest.

 

[VNTS]

I dont own a euro car, but only draw back I would see is they are heavy on the technology and complicated, also shortage of dealers and qualified techs.

Then some folks who buy them are not car savy.

My neighbor who is into the status, had a03 audi, sunk 7K$ into it over 3 years chasing electrical issues. Traded it in for a Mercedes SUV, traded that in and now has an X1, his wife also has a X1. they like them but hate the car payments and the fact the closest BMW dealers is 40 miles away!

 

[Cujet]

I'm really enjoying the missing suspension bushings in my '03 Jaguar. They deteriorated and disappeared. Metal on metal, with lots of play. Cornering is interesting, as is tire wear.

Glad the parts are cheap... Oh wait, who am I kidding, I can't afford to fix it.

 

[gofast182]

Just a couple observations.

When watching British car shows, Wheeler Dealers and Top Gear come to mind, they often remark about the bulletproof reliability of German marques while we here in the States tend to regard them as highly suspect. Its odd because seemingly, in several cases, the same models exist both places.

If one leases a new BMW isn't all maintenance included? So there should be no massive headaches for a new owner from a cost perspective (both warranty repairs and maintenance are covered) and by being sure maintenance is done right (some commented on the need for very specific fluids and maintenance) aren't they eventually helping their own longevity?

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: mclasser
It seems like the Europeans just over-complicate things for no reason, especially electronics. For instance, many newer BMW's don't have oil dipsticks. The car instead uses a sensor to relay the oil level. So if this sensor goes bad one day and the owner doesn't know the oil's low, BMW is going to blame the owner for the engine damage. Many Euro cars also use plastic electronic water pumps that of course aren't going to last long. The dealer then hoses you on the labor costs because the pumps are located in hard-to-reach places in the engine. Pinhead engineering at its finest.


I think the sensor is a great idea. Why? Cause most people don't bother to check their oil. I think people would be more inclined to do something if the car tells them to ever time it starts up. Like the OLM - I bet it gets many people who otherwise would care less to change their oil.

Electric water pumps don't scare me. Electric motors are generally reliable (think cooling fans) and in many cars the water pumps are hidden or in hard to reach places. Many new engines run the water pump off the timing chain or belt.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
When watching British car shows, Wheeler Dealers and Top Gear come to mind, they often remark about the bulletproof reliability of German marques while we here in the States tend to regard them as highly suspect. Its odd because seemingly, in several cases, the same models exist both places.


I watch the same British car shows. I think German reliability is just relative to other choices they have available.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd


I watch the same British car shows. I think German reliability is just relative to other choices they have available.

Actually they have the typical Japanese and Korean choices that we over here have as well.

A lot of the problems come from the owners buying what they will not or cannot afford to service. One thing about the German cars they have certain scheduled maintenance requirements and the manufactures expect the owner to heed them. When they don't there are problems that the owners have no reason NOT to expect.

Also we have a huge problem in the USA with incompetence service mechanics, even at the authorized dealers, with these hacks actually causing more damage because they do improper service and repairs. Not that big an issue in Germany and Northern Europe, where the authorized stores have properly trained, competent techs.

I honestly have to say that while America claims to be a
"can do" country, I find that lots of idiots here will claim they
"can", however, they don't do it right. It is literally like finding a needle in a haystack to find competent, honest, and affordable car service. In some areas of the country you CANNOT.

 

[TrevorS]

When I've owned, rented or researched vehicles in Europe, I have noticed 2 things:

European cars tend to have the latest technology engines compared to what is offered for the same vehicle in the US. Pushing fuel economy as high as possible, limiting CO2 and engine size to meet legislation / tax bands seems to be behind this.

The average tech and features is far higher in Europe than the US. So overall reliability is worse. Interestingly, several years back, Top Gear did a survey that found Mercedes had terrible reliability. It has improved since then.

Don't forget also that we don't have many Italian or French cars in the US. So in the US, Asian cars are tops with domestic and German vehicles vying for 2nd place.

In Europe, Japanese cars have also begun to come top in reliability, but the remaining vehicles are German, French, Italian and then various European manufactured American brands.

Before the Japanese image improved, German cars were relatively reliable especially compared to Italian and French vehicles and also against particular countries US vehicles eg Ford in the UK which many people would treat as a UK company and therefore have more loyalty to than Japanese vehicles.

 

[saberz]

I agree that its more preventative rather than reliability. But there are exceptions to this rule, and its that no two cars are the same. You can have two of the exact same car and have two totally different experiences.

 

[saberz]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
Just a couple observations.

When watching British car shows, Wheeler Dealers and Top Gear come to mind, they often remark about the bulletproof reliability of German marques while we here in the States tend to regard them as highly suspect. Its odd because seemingly, in several cases, the same models exist both places.

If one leases a new BMW isn't all maintenance included? So there should be no massive headaches for a new owner from a cost perspective (both warranty repairs and maintenance are covered) and by being sure maintenance is done right (some commented on the need for very specific fluids and maintenance) aren't they eventually helping their own longevity?


The problem in this case still comes down to the owner. Granted I stated previously that no two cars are the same. I'm expanding that statement to include that no two owners are the same.

The free maintenance while great doesn't guarantee the owner will adhere to it.

Most people will still lease the BMW, drive it like a trophy and turn it in badly abused.

 

[CBR.worm]

It's true that in many cases, lack of money is not what causes PM delays.

 

[Tosh]

Originally Posted By: coachditka
The more I think about it and read some of these posts, the more I conclude that the European rubber and plastic are just sub standard possibly due to using recycled or "green" materials.

Most of the issues with our Volvo have had to do with rubber bushings (UCA, LCA), adhesives (headliner, door trim), plastics (door handles, radio knobs), and general rubber things (cv boot, motor mount).

All in under 80k miles.

The metal parts are pretty much solid, it's just the way they are attached with plastic and rubber!


Agree: It's about the plastic and rubber pieces getting hard too early. And in general, cars start feeling old and getting noisy when the squishy rubber parts (bushings) lose their squish.

 

[PierreR]

Wall of test warning.

I have to agree on newer (1990 and up)Audi, BMW and MB being promblemcars.
Its the same here, when they break down it will cost an arm and a leg to get it fixed.
A co worker of mine bought a used audi from 09 with only 170000km,s on it.
When he let a friend that works at an audi dealer he saw that at 160000km,s the timingchain had been replaced on it.
When he asked why it was replaced he said it was because the owner had used the wrong oil and simply skipped doing any service on it for almost 120000km,s
The cost for replacing the timingchain, 70000sek about $10,800...
According to them that is what happends if you dont use audis longlife oil
(personaly i dont believe that)

Volvo arent as good as they once was anymore.
In 04 my parents bough a new volvo v50 and that thing was more at the dealer getting repaired then they drove it.
Here are some of the things that happend to it:
* Leaked in rainwater the first day it got home
* Seatbelt warning would start beeping for no reason
* Alarm would go of when you were driving it so you had to pull over, get out lock and unlock the doors maybee 10 times then it would stop.
Sometimes the alarm killed the engine...
* If you slammed the doors shut to hard, the doorpanels would fall off, or they would just fall off by them self.
* Computers and wireharness in the driver door failed almost weekly
(the dealer even stocked up on them for that pos car...)
* The car had to go on a towtruck from our garage to the dealer because the ecm had failed over night...

At the end the servicemanager didnt need the licenseplatenumber for it because he recognized my parents voices and knew what platenumber it had... Thats a bad thing

Fourtunatley volvo paid for everything since it still had its waranty, but the day after the waranty run out my parents traded it for a Nissan x-trail.

They later traded that X-trail for another but with a diesel and that thing must have been a summer only car because as soon as it was -1celsius outside it would refuse to start.
They only had that for 6monthts and for 4 months the dealer could not find out what was wrong with it so in the end they took it back and gave them the old car + the money they paid extra for it back.

The Volvo they have now V70 2009 has only got 90000km,s on it and the rear swaybar bushings are gone..
On my 93 ZJ i had to replace the swaybar bushings once and that was because the endlink brkoe when i hit a pothole to hard, the rest that are original are still going strong at 290000km,s

The trucks are about the same to...
I work at a garage that repairs trucks and compared to Volvo,Scania the MAN trucks are always problematic add to that spareparts that have a stupid high price.
If we have to look up how something works in the service litterature its always 1 step forward and 47 back, then a circle before you find almost what it is your looking for but still not quite right. Litterature In Swedish no, English no, everything is in German....
If we need to buy a special tool from MAN its full price (even though we are a certified MAN service station..)
Our stupid manager bought a cab lift tool for a MAN cab (wich we didnt need) it cost 280000sek (about $43400).
Its basicly a I beam with 4 smaller beams that goes down and you secure to the cab to lift it...

When we needed a compressiontester they sent us one made out of plastic that snapped in half after 2 cylinders were checked..
That thing cost 10000sek (About $1500)
We made one ourself out of aluminum using the busted one as a reference..

If we need a specialtool for a Volvo or Scania those dealers will let us borrow it for free.
When we were a Volvo truck servicestation every specialtool we needed was either free or it was 80%off the price.

 

[Cujet]

Again, tell me why the suspension bushings are missing on my 2003 Jaguar and not on my 2004 Honda?

Tell me why the Jaguar spits out foam from the air cond vents, but not the Honda. Why the Jaguar plastic parts are crumbling. Even the Jaguar wheel well plastics have deteriorated to uselessness. None of this is happening on the Honda.

 

[EA82]

Ive thought about buying a European vehicle in the recent years but I always hear complains from friends and family who own them about their reliability. This thread is reinforcing my point of view.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: PierreR
Wall of test warning.




Hej!

That was a long but VERY informative post, I hope you have more to add. It's interesting to hear about how things work in other countries.

What are car dealers like in Sweden?
Do you generally find that they have honest, competent help, when it comes to service and mechanics?

 

[SilverC6]

US cars are not inexpensive to repair.

Their repair costs at the dealership can rival that of some imports.

But there are some european marques that I would avoid.

For some automobiles, the joy of driving the capable vehicle is well worth the cost in future maintenance.

Those who would debate this often haven't had the opportunity to sample a wonderfully designed driver's car.

Certainly, if low cost of ownership is the only basis of the decision, everyone would be driving Toyota Camrys.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: coachditka
Trim, suspension, and internal engine is not maintainable parts.

I have always changed the oil, tranny fluid, etc.

I have concluded that the hot Texas sun is not compatible with Swedish trim adhesive.

My 98 V70 is a different animal and age from yours. Completely different platforms. My door skins have separated from the panels like yours. The dealer replaced them under warranty, but the new ones separated like the ones they replaced. I've heard it's because of the 'enviro-friendly' adhesive; not nearly as durable as the old version. As a fix, my Volvo indy has suggested taking a razor blade and slitting the 'bubble' so that it will lay flat, using 3M spray adhesive or contact cement to stick it down, and then gluing on a vinyl patch, maybe in a contrasting color, to make it look like a 'feature'. I have yet to try it due to time. But it's an interesting fix.

My headliner is still "overhead". Sounds like the same cheap stuff was used on yours as the door panels.

Re: Suspension...very odd it didn't last longer than that. I have replaced a passenger side wheel bearing, upper strut mounts, lower control arms and just recently shocks & struts (they were long overdue), but at much higher mileage than yours.

I've gone through multiple coolant tanks and caps. They're pressurized and hold very hot liquid. Plus daily expansion & contraction will take it's toll.

I too have experienced leaking cams seals. I did the rears myself. The fronts were replaced with the timing belt.

I've had this car for 15yrs now and keep my cars for a long time. The last car was a SAAB 900T I had for 14yrs and 256,000 miles. Plenty did go wrong with it, but it still ran fine when I sold it. It was a much simplier car though.

Volvo is not the same company it used to be though and newer cars (all of them) are MUCH more complex & expensive than mine. Far too much so in my opinion. I'm fortunate though as I'm good with a wrench and do most of my own work. I use OEM parts I order on-line. It would truly cost a fortune if I had to pay the dealer for all the work I've done over the years.

 

[moto94536]

I have never own European cars and never will. I know my 2006 toyota is the most reliable car. 334,000 miles. Toyota for life.