Why are European cars so problematic?

[Garak]

I did have some issues with my Audi, but nothing beyond what should be expected when a car was that old. It did better than some of the other heaps I owned.

The issue I had wasn't with parts prices (I did very well in that regard, better than most other vehicles I've owned). I just didn't have the time to fuss with it. It certainly didn't break the bank, but it blew the time budget out of the water.

 

[rjundi]

I personally have not had luck with Euro cars and sold them. My friends father who buys $4k(past) - $7k(now) creampuffs with high mileage seems to get about 100k-150k service out of Audi/BMW without serious dent in wallet. These cars have 150k-190k mileage to start. He commutes 40k-50k/year so he wants to keep his costs low.

Break downs are easy, he is Exec of a massive insurance company that is hooked up with Enterprise who picks him up or claims rep gets him.

 

[Olas]

European cars are no more or less reliable than any other nationality.
All cars have their own preferred maintenance schedule, and all car-makers put out questionable 'friday afternoon cars'

One human trait is to scream and shout and [censored] and moan when stuff goes wrong, but not to say much when things go right because we just expect things to go right and we take them for granted when they do.

Also, you'll find what you look for on most search engines - search for "european cars more reliable than american cars" and google will find you something with that title. Problem with written reports is the bias of the reporter.

It's not the best analogy, but think about your teeth. They're 'high maintenance' 'cause you need to brush and floss twice a day, and go to the dentist every 6 months...but if you look after them they'll last longer than you will. Kinda the same with euro cars - neglect them and they die. look after them and they last MUCH longer than they need to..

 

[rjundi]

I will state it seems BMW/MB/Audi service costing is excessive compared to Japan/Euro makes. The folks I know who went from Honda/Toyota to the their first BMW/MB/Audi are all shocked to say the least.

Apparently "luxury" means excessive servicing pricing. The sad truth is not sure if those brands are even looked at/marketed that highly over in Europe like in the US. The MB220 Cdi I rented in Italy was nice enough but had plain cloth and reminded of a domestic car as far as materials grade.

 

[Olas]

Servicing is expensive if you pay for it no matter where your car was made!
Buy some tools and have a look at GermanAutoParts.com and save a fortune whilst getting to know your car better. I thought everyone on this board did their own maintenance and repairs?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: rjundi

Apparently "luxury" means excessive servicing pricing. The sad truth is not sure if those brands are even looked at/marketed that highly over in Europe like in the US. The MB220 Cdi I rented in Italy was nice enough but had plain cloth and reminded of a domestic car as far as materials grade.


Exactly. I've seen MB cars with plastic oe MB hubcaps in Canada not too long ago. It is entirely a brand fixing/image approach here, every last thing has to be upscale and over the top fancy. Why not just offer a decontented car that is simpler and has fewer doodads to break. E class cars are routinely used as taxis in Europe, for example... Surely they don't have huge touch screens and fancy leather and all kinds of electronic things to break. Here in the us, and even in lower end brands, you often can't get specific options without paying a premium for all kinds of stupid options.

So the cross of brand image and placement in the marketplace, crossed with ridiculous optioning strategies makes it incredibly tough to get what you want from some brands..

 

[Cujet]

My Billionaire boss "was" enamored with European vehicles.

He has since switched to other brands. The costly upkeep and lack of reliability on Mercedes products was beyond belief. The final straw was "gooey" foam being ejected from the air-conditioning vents and getting all over him. It seems the FL head had deteriorated the foam in the A/C, and it "reverted" to a liquid like, black substance that blew all over him and was impossible to remove.

I was on a first name basis with the Mercedes service writer. That's not good, considering I don't deal with the boss' cars at all. (I'm in the flight department)

My Jaguar X-Type also has the "deterioration" problems. The rubber and plastic and glues of European vehicles fail in the South Florida heat!!!!

Remember that the plastics and rubbers used on European vehicles is of a recyclable nature and does not hold up well in hot conditions.

You know it's bad when suspension bushings and engine mounts just "disappear" on European vehicles.

 

[GumbyJarvis]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
I will state it seems BMW/MB/Audi service costing is excessive compared to Japan/Euro makes. The folks I know who went from Honda/Toyota to the their first BMW/MB/Audi are all shocked to say the least.

Apparently "luxury" means excessive servicing pricing. The sad truth is not sure if those brands are even looked at/marketed that highly over in Europe like in the US. The MB220 Cdi I rented in Italy was nice enough but had plain cloth and reminded of a domestic car as far as materials grade.


Awkward, picking up a Audi or vw part in Florida is easy compared to a Subaru part.
Subaru parts and service seem to be expensive where I'm from
Though, from what I've seen, the 3 people that I know who own subarus, they're fairly reliable.
One in particular owns a Subaru Brat from way back when, he just hit 475k miles, manual transmission. Only issue since he owned it? Wiper motor went out. He is the first and only owner, Florida owned all it's life, and is still in car-show condition.

 

[coachditka]

Not to throw the mix off completely here, but I had a little extra cash and was looking at a used Audi Allroad. I needed a smaller car for work when my truck and ladder were not necessary.

After researching and reading about the nightmare of the suspension and turbo replacement on an Allroad, I decided to move on.

I love how Euro cars handle the road and I would consider their designs safety oriented, but mechanically what a pain.

 

[Joe1]

The Euro luxury makes have a reputation for being expensive to maintain and repair. One has to weigh this along with the superior driving dynamics they offer as a factor in their purchase decision.

They make sense for those who have the financial wherewithal to properly maintain and repair or for those with mechanical ability commensurate with the level needed to properly perform general maintenance and repairs. I cringe when I see those with a moderate income drive a late model Euro make to a dealer for service and repairs. That is a recipe for financial disaster.


I have a friend who drove a succession of new BMWs over a 12 year period. He frequently lamented the high cost of maintenance and repairs and downgraded to a Subaru a few years back. He is elated with the significantly lower ownership costs, but still misses the superior overall driving experience offered by the BMW .

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
I will state it seems BMW/MB/Audi service costing is excessive compared to Japan/Euro makes. The folks I know who went from Honda/Toyota to the their first BMW/MB/Audi are all shocked to say the least.

Apparently "luxury" means excessive servicing pricing. The sad truth is not sure if those brands are even looked at/marketed that highly over in Europe like in the US. The MB220 Cdi I rented in Italy was nice enough but had plain cloth and reminded of a domestic car as far as materials grade.


I think an issue might be people are expecting what can never be obtained.

An Audi, BMW or MB is not the same class of car as a Toyota. And in Europe at least Lexus has not gained a huge foothold in sales.

But from what i have been told by owners a Lexus is more expensive to service than a Toyota. Even though they are basically the same company.

American cars have the reputation for being expensive to maingain as the service intervals can be as low as 7500 miles with major service every 15k.

I also don't believe they make VW from different quality materials for the US.

Unless the build quality is poorer, though to be fair VW, Audi, BMW and MB have had checkered reliability over the last few years.

Though specifically with the more complicated Euro compliant diesel vehicles we tend to have in Europe.

My wifes Renault has been reliable. Clutch has been juddering a little for a year or so and the suspension isn't as tight as it once was but it still drives well.

As far as replacing all the suspension on a V50 at 60k?

Never heard of that. I think you might have had tyre wesr issues and simply needed a proper Hunter Alignment. Rather than new suspension.

I think the issue is the garage stiched you up.

My V50 was on the original suspension, clutch, gearbox etc.

At 200k.

I have a set of wishbones for the Clio but won't fit them till the clutch is done. As the subframe has to be dropped.

It is used fairly harshly by the wife doing elderly/disability at home daycare.

Lots of stop start, u turns, urban driving.

The interior is still as new. Did have to change the seats as the wifes jeans ripped the bolster. And that stuff annoys me!

Give it a clean and hide the plate and it would look like a two yr old car instead of an 06.

I also am confused in why all Euro makes are lumbered into one pot.

They all operate in different markets in Europe.

You can't compare a Fiat to a Volvo.

But in all the recent reliability surveys in Europe Jaguar Land Rover have been at the top. Pretty much since the XF came out.

Do i consider all Jaguars to be rubbish since mine had some issues?

No. I was annoyed it broke. But how can you moan about a termostat housing starting to leak or a dpf needing a forced regen due to a faulty sensor.

Especially since the dpf was faultless prior to the first dealer fixing the leak. Did they damage the sensor? Or the sensor wiring?

Who knows.

It was fixed quickly in both cases and under warranty.

Will i keep this Jag out of warranty?

Not sure yet. Will see how it works out over the last year of the warranty.

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: GumbyJarvis
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I will state it seems BMW/MB/Audi service costing is excessive compared to Japan/Euro makes. The folks I know who went from Honda/Toyota to the their first BMW/MB/Audi are all shocked to say the least.

Apparently "luxury" means excessive servicing pricing. The sad truth is not sure if those brands are even looked at/marketed that highly over in Europe like in the US. The MB220 Cdi I rented in Italy was nice enough but had plain cloth and reminded of a domestic car as far as materials grade.


Awkward, picking up a Audi or vw part in Florida is easy compared to a Subaru part.
Subaru parts and service seem to be expensive where I'm from
Though, from what I've seen, the 3 people that I know who own subarus, they're fairly reliable.
One in particular owns a Subaru Brat from way back when, he just hit 475k miles, manual transmission. Only issue since he owned it? Wiper motor went out. He is the first and only owner, Florida owned all it's life, and is still in car-show condition.


That is likely locale specific. Subaru rules the Northeast and even local parts suppliers stock Subaru parts which my Indy Subie mechanic($60/hr which is cheap) typically uses. Within 25 minutes driving distance I had the choice of 4 Subaru dealers to visit. The two closest are 5minutes and 10 minutes away. Another is planning on opening too about 15 minutes away.

Parts I definitely would state are not cheap. I would not state excessive but even my Acura MDX has cheaper parts to it although it shares all sorts of items with a very common Honda.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
Strange

As when i sold my V50(2008) it had the best part of 200k and apart from a worn carpet, my fault for driving in work boots, the interior was unmarked.

It should be pointed out that the V50 is actually a Ford Focus with a different body on top.


Hmm, a rebadged Focus, and it's pretty reliable.... Sound inline with what the OP is saying!

Quote:

Could it be the high temps and sun are degrading the soft touch plastics that are common in European cars?

I know that US built cars imported to the UK, Caliber, Sebring, PT Cruiser usually have harder shiny plastics.


Could be. Hard plastics means lower expectations? I'd buy that. But I think most on this board are not comparing dash rattles and shedding to "it died on the road".

Quote:

It is funny that you have issue with European build quality in the US.

As most US cars have a reputation for poor build in the UK!


Actually, they used to have a rep for poor build quality here too. Used to be said though that a GM motor would run poorly BUT for a very long time. Same could probably be said for most any domestic that made it past 100k, out of that infant mortality stage--stuff might fall off, it might nickle and dime, but it'd always start and move.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: rjundi

Apparently "luxury" means excessive servicing pricing. The sad truth is not sure if those brands are even looked at/marketed that highly over in Europe like in the US. The MB220 Cdi I rented in Italy was nice enough but had plain cloth and reminded of a domestic car as far as materials grade.


Exactly. I've seen MB cars with plastic oe MB hubcaps in Canada not too long ago. It is entirely a brand fixing/image approach here, every last thing has to be upscale and over the top fancy. Why not just offer a decontented car that is simpler and has fewer doodads to break. E class cars are routinely used as taxis in Europe, for example... Surely they don't have huge touch screens and fancy leather and all kinds of electronic things to break. Here in the us, and even in lower end brands, you often can't get specific options without paying a premium for all kinds of stupid options.

So the cross of brand image and placement in the marketplace, crossed with ridiculous optioning strategies makes it incredibly tough to get what you want from some brands..


You can still buy a new E class over there with a 4 cyl diesel, 6 speed manual, cloth interior and no frills, basically a modern 240D on steroids.
A good well built, long life, low maintenance daily driver.

On the other side of that coin is $170K Euro loaded E 63 AMG with every gizmo known to man and a few that aren't.
Most American buyer want high content vehicles with big engines even if they can only drive 65mph, this drives the cost of maintenance and repair through the roof.

The problem as I see it is they price these vehicles too low for the US market putting them in reach of people that really shouldn't be looking at them as daily drivers.
The simple fact that you can buy it doesn't mean you should own it.

I have a friend who bought a new Diablo some years ago, he could afford to buy it alright but found out quickly that he didn't have enough to keep it without hurting a little.
The car got a little neglected and the repairs multiplied, now a 20K service cost over 50K (DM) and climbing. he moved to a 911 and was in the comfort zone.

The Diablo was a phenomenal car and if he had more money he could have kept it without feeling the pain of its ownership cost.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Trav
You can still buy a new E class over there with a 4 cyl diesel, 6 speed manual, cloth interior and no frills, basically a modern 240D on steroids.
A good well built, long life, low maintenance daily driver.

 

[Cujet]

Ya know, we can argue the point all we would like. But the facts are here in black and white:

www.truedelta.com

Reliability surveys at truedelta are accurate and span many years, not just "initial quality" surveys like some of the others.

A quick look will "open your eyes" to the stunning unreliability and maintenance expense of many European makes.

Also, if you don't want to believe that, just go on to the "true cost to own" edmunds website and look at the repair costs of 2008 Euro vehicles. You'll be amazed.

 

[nepadriver]

Originally Posted By: cdeason
I have owned a number of BMW's, every one has been problem free, I educate myself on the particular model and take care of any weak areas before hand, my 07 328i has 157K miles and never an issue, buy parts from RockAuto or a BMW dealer on line to save money


All 2006 and 2007 BMW 3 series with Bridgestone Runflats had them go bald within 5k-7k miles, even with multiple rotations and alignments per year. I know first hand, I had an 07 co-worker had 06, same thing. Over 1 grand to replace. BMW wouldn't honor warranty on tires. I took out the extra warranty for just the tires, no dice. Dealer told us "pound sand" and "pay us".

A nationwide class action lawsuit later, lots of paper work, I got 600 bucks back although it took 1.5 years. If I called them on it within the first 10k files I would have gotten it all back, I just missed that and got it after 10k.

Never again. Ultimate piece o [censored] mobile.

Don't believe me? Read it and weep.

 

[nepadriver]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
One of the mechanic channels on youtube. He made mention of how it's only a good idea to lease one and dump it if you have to have one.


I leased mine, didn't make it 10k without over 1000 dollars worth of repairs (see above). Don't even waste your time. 1990's, early and earlier, Mercedes was top notch, even they fell off the cliff.

 

[Win]

Service history of last five new cars, imported and domestic:

2004 Pontiac GTO - none, hit by lightning

2004 Jaguar XJ8 - rattley seat belt tensioner, lazy fuel pump sender, both replaced under warranty

2008 Pontiac G8 - software update to brake switch, replacement battery out of warranty

2009 Solstice - none

2009 Torrent GXP - door lock actuator, replaced under warranty.

My conclusion is that modern vehicles from all continents are vastly improved over vehicles made just a couple of decades ago.

 

[PandaBear]

My understanding is European do not design with the same safety margin that the unexpected would happen like Japanese and American.

and even in Asia and Oceania European cars have lesser reliable reputation as the Japanese and American.