Why are BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi so expensive to fix?

[OVERKILL]

Are they equivalent on this side of the pond? Not that wikipedia is always correct, but flipping through the page makes me think it's more performance oriented? The 3 series seems to have many variants.

The 3, 2 and 1 series are smaller cars, and yes, have a ton of variants. The lower tier ones are definitely not performance oriented, while the upper tier ones can be. And then of course there are the M variants.

A 5 series is more luxurious but still offers a wider range of options/content than a 7 series which is larger, and further upscale.

 

[OVERKILL]

I guess I don’t consider luxuries and luxurious to be synonymous. I see luxurious as being plush and comfortable. Friend of mine owns a branded dealership and they had a few MBs, BMWs, and Porsches on their lot. Sitting next to them was a Buick. The Buick was leaps and bounds more luxurious, plush, and comfortable. The others just seemed more gimmicky.

Without knowing what models of those cars we are discussing it's hard to make a meaningful contribution here. As I noted, the offerings run the gamut depending on the series/class. Just because it says BMW on the bonnet doesn't mean it's a luxury-esque variant, it could have been a 320i or something, same with the Benz.

7-series review here:
https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/7-series-2021

Some pics:

The 7-series (and the more upscale 5-series offerings) are incredibly luxurious, not just in terms of appointments, but also ride, comfort, silence...etc.

Even my sister's 330i "Performance" pales in comparison in terms of the above to my similar vintage M5. I've also had a few rental MB C-class cars and if that was my benchmark on MB, I would be of the same view as you. You have to experience an E or S-class to get a proper frame of reference.

But, keep in mind, you pay for that. Even the base entry into the 7-series, the 740i, is roughly $90,000USD. The 760i is $160K.

 

[supton]

The 3, 2 and 1 series are smaller cars, and yes, have a ton of variants.

Just took a look, and the 2's start at $36k (4 door) while the 3's start at $42k.

Don't know much about them. Not sure where I'd start shopping for one, if they're a good buy used? if these are Camcord competitors it seems like I should cross-shop, no?

 

[aquariuscsm]

Without knowing what models of those cars we are discussing it's hard to make a meaningful contribution here. As I noted, the offerings run the gamut depending on the series/class. Just because it says BMW on the bonnet doesn't mean it's a luxury-esque variant, it could have been a 320i or something, same with the Benz.

7-series review here:
https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/7-series-2021

Some pics:
View attachment 105927
View attachment 105928
View attachment 105929
View attachment 105930

The 7-series (and the more upscale 5-series offerings) are incredibly luxurious, not just in terms of appointments, but also ride, comfort, silence...etc.

Even my sister's 330i "Performance" pales in comparison in terms of the above to my similar vintage M5. I've also had a few rental MB C-class cars and if that was my benchmark on MB, I would be of the same view as you. You have to experience an E or S-class to get a proper frame of reference.

But, keep in mind, you pay for that. Even the base entry into the 7-series, the 740i, is roughly $90,000USD. The 760i is $160K.

That is a NICE car!

 

[OVERKILL]

That is a NICE car!

I know, LOL! That's the 7-series, that's a BMW luxury sedan. You can get a 5'er trimmed similarly.

You can see what I mean now eh? It greatly depends on the model.

 

[OVERKILL]

Just took a look, and the 2's start at $36k (4 door) while the 3's start at $42k.

Don't know much about them. Not sure where I'd start shopping for one, if they're a good buy used? if these are Camcord competitors it seems like I should cross-shop, no?

My sister has owned a 330i for like 10 years, it's an '03, it's been a bit more needy than a comparable Toyota, but not bad. Has the 3.0L inline 6 and a GM transmission, both of which have been very reliable. Main issues have been valve cover gasket (common), coolant pressure tank (also common on the E46), oil filter gasket (also common on the E46) and front suspension bits (also common on the E46).

The car has the factory upgraded brakes because it's a ZHP, a bump in HP and is generally VERY fun to drive. Ride quality is what you'd expect at that price point, it's not as composed as a heavier 5-series, but feels extremely competent and driver-focused.

She bought hers used. You can get one off-lease that's been dealer maintained for a pretty hefty discount over new. If you are genuinely interested, that's where I'd start. Of course right now, stock is going to be low and everything will be overpriced, but when things calm back down, that's the route I'd take.

 

[supton]

My sister has owned a 330i for like 10 years, it's an '03, it's been a bit more needy than a comparable Toyota, but not bad. Has the 3.0L inline 6 and a GM transmission, both of which have been very reliable. Main issues have been valve cover gasket (common), coolant pressure tank (also common on the E46), oil filter gasket (also common on the E46) and front suspension bits (also common on the E46).

The car has the factory upgraded brakes because it's a ZHP, a bump in HP and is generally VERY fun to drive. Ride quality is what you'd expect at that price point, it's not as composed as a heavier 5-series, but feels extremely competent and driver-focused.

She bought hers used. You can get one off-lease that's been dealer maintained for a pretty hefty discount over new. If you are genuinely interested, that's where I'd start. Of course right now, stock is going to be low and everything will be overpriced, but when things calm back down, that's the route I'd take.

Gives me to someplace to start. Its looking like I will be back to 20k/yr soon and I could use basic transportation for highway driving. I don't mind my Camry too much but it's too old to be trusted entirely.

 

[OVERKILL]

Gives me to someplace to start. Its looking like I will be back to 20k/yr soon and I could use basic transportation for highway driving. I don't mind my Camry too much but it's too old to be trusted entirely.

I haven't seen our resident BMW tech on here in a while, @mightymousetech but my understanding is that the i6's are pretty bulletproof. They are also backed by the absolutely fantastic ZF 8spd transmission, which really helps make the experience.

IIRC, you are able to get a CPO, which have a fantastic warranty, pretty inexpensively with the off-lease offerings, which are also typically very well equipped. That's what I'd look at, somebody else already took the depreciation hit with the lease, and the dealer did the maintenance.

 

[supton]

So I looked and there are some 2018 320i's for under $30k. Just as a start. Tire size is low profile, 225/50R17, but tire prices are ok, looks like I could do under $200 a tire*. What I can't find is a towing capacity on these cars? My 2021 Camry hybrid has a "don't even install a hitch" (which I plan to violate in a couple years), my departed '11 was 1k but "not rated for towing" and my '99 is a way optimistic 2k rating (!).

[*I've been buying RT43's for a while, 700 tread wear and 70k rating--and I get 40k lifespan. So 2 year lifespan, have to keep that in mind when running numbers. Going to guess that RT43's do NOT belong on this car though, I'd have to find a new favorite. ]

[I have to say though, $30k used, that's new Camry hybrid territory. One model, same parts on the shelf? eh... would you believe my '99 and my '21 take the same oil filter!?]

What about well used instead?

 

[MCompact]

I've stared looking for something to replace the 2 Series I've owned for six years(it's running great, but only my Club Sport and Wrangler are long term keepers(27 years and 20 years, respectively). The problem is, there's nothing under $50k new or used that I like better. So I likely will be keeping it a while longer.

 

[MCompact]

I haven't seen our resident BMW tech on here in a while, @mightymousetech but my understanding is that the i6's are pretty bulletproof. They are also backed by the absolutely fantastic ZF 8spd transmission, which really helps make the experience.

IIRC, you are able to get a CPO, which have a fantastic warranty, pretty inexpensively with the off-lease offerings, which are also typically very well equipped. That's what I'd look at, somebody else already took the depreciation hit with the lease, and the dealer did the maintenance.

The B58 I6 backed by the ZF 8Hp is a really phenomenal motor. The only BMW motors I like better are the S55 and S58 ///M motors.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Without knowing what models of those cars we are discussing it's hard to make a meaningful contribution here. As I noted, the offerings run the gamut depending on the series/class. Just because it says BMW on the bonnet doesn't mean it's a luxury-esque variant, it could have been a 320i or something, same with the Benz.

7-series review here:
https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/7-series-2021

Some pics:
View attachment 105927
View attachment 105928
View attachment 105929
View attachment 105930

The 7-series (and the more upscale 5-series offerings) are incredibly luxurious, not just in terms of appointments, but also ride, comfort, silence...etc.

Even my sister's 330i "Performance" pales in comparison in terms of the above to my similar vintage M5. I've also had a few rental MB C-class cars and if that was my benchmark on MB, I would be of the same view as you. You have to experience an E or S-class to get a proper frame of reference.

But, keep in mind, you pay for that. Even the base entry into the 7-series, the 740i, is roughly $90,000USD. The 760i is $160K.

Check out this turbo V12! What a beast!

 

[Marcozi]

The reason they are so expensive to repair is because you have basically two choices. Either bring it to the dealership who knows how to repair BMW, Mercedes, or Audi or bring it to your local all around mechanic who can fix any type of car. The all around mechanic doesn't know as much about the car as the dealership that specializes in that particular vehicle. It's a learning process sometimes for the all around mechanic shop and they know the dealerships bill out high prices for repairs. The local mechanic may have to spend and time on the internet to fix the vehicle hence the dealership knows exactly what to do and save lots of steps. Almost any mechanic can fix a Civic or Corolla but not necessarily a BMW or high end limited edition foreign car. The same problem usually occurs on vehicles and the dealership mechanics know exactly what to do without having to research problems.

There is a 3rd option: an independent repair shop that specializes in repairing specific makes of cars.

 

[brianl703]

Bosch is nothing like Lucas. Ford's EEC-IV system (which was phenomenal) was also a Bosch system, designed in conjunction with Intel. Used all Bosch parts.

The throttle position sensor in one of the EEC-IV vehicles I owned was made by CTS and the oxygen sensor made by NTK. As far as I could tell the only thing actually made by Bosch on that car were the fuel injectors.

 

[OVERKILL]

The throttle position sensor in one of the EEC-IV vehicles I owned was made by CTS and the oxygen sensor made by NTK. As far as I could tell the only thing actually made by Bosch on that car were the fuel injectors.

The HEGO's had probably been replaced. OE EEC-IV HEGO's were Bosch (the big fat bodied style). I may still have an OE TPS around here, will have to check. I did use NTK HEGO replacements because they were less expensive than the OE Bosch ones. Had no issues with them.

The system itself was a project spearheaded by Ford in conjunction with Bosch and Intel. Hence the Intel bits in the ECM. It wasn't a turn-key Bosch system like what was seen on some of the Euro marques.

Unfortunately, my stash of EEC-IV stuff is quite depleted compared to what it used to be. What year was the vehicle in question? Most of my experience is 87-90.

 

[edyvw]

I guess I don’t consider luxuries and luxurious to be synonymous. I see luxurious as being plush and comfortable. Friend of mine owns a branded dealership and they had a few MBs, BMWs, and Porsches on their lot. Sitting next to them was a Buick. The Buick was leaps and bounds more luxurious, plush, and comfortable. The others just seemed more gimmicky.

Sit in that Buick after 100k and then in BMW or Porsche after 100k.

 

[edyvw]

The reason it ran two ECU's was basically for redundancy. If you lost an entire bank (say, the crank or cam position sensor failed) then you could carry on using just the other bank.

Not to mention that this discussion is happening in 2022 about engine that was introduced in 1987 and can still outperform some supercars in F1.
I love these discussions about complexity and comparison between Corolla and engine that is used in cars like Mclaren F1.

 

[brianl703]

The HEGO's had probably been replaced. OE EEC-IV HEGO's were Bosch (the big fat bodied style). I may still have an OE TPS around here, will have to check. I did use NTK HEGO replacements because they were less expensive than the OE Bosch ones. Had no issues with them.

They were the original oxygen sensors. One of the cars I bought used and it was still under the factory warranty, so if they had been replaced, they were replaced by the dealer..and there were 2 of them, unlikely they ALL got replaced. And another one I bought used with 80K on it also had 4 (OBD-II) of these oxygen sensors.. They were all NTK oxygen sensors with the Ford logo and a Ford part (engineering) number on them.

Same with the 1988 Mustang. I bought that used, also had Ford-branded NTK oxygen sensors in it.

Think the two Crown Vics I had also had NTK sensors in them when I got them.

Maybe they used the Bosch sensors on the trucks more than the cars.

 

[OVERKILL]

They were the original oxygen sensors. One of the cars I bought used and it was still under the factory warranty, so if they had been replaced, they were replaced by the dealer..and there were 2 of them, unlikely they ALL got replaced. And another one I bought used with 80K on it also had 4 (OBD-II) of these oxygen sensors.. They were all NTK oxygen sensors with the Ford logo and a Ford part (engineering) number on them.

Same with the 1988 Mustang. I bought that used, also had Ford-branded NTK oxygen sensors in it.

Think the two Crown Vics I had also had NTK sensors in them when I got them.

Maybe they used the Bosch sensors on the trucks more than the cars.

Bizarre, my '87 GT had the Ford logo'd Bosch HEGO's as did my '89 Town Car, my '88 F-250 and every Mustang I've ever wrenched on of that era... And there have been a lot of those. I didn't see the NTK ones unless they were aftermarket.

Guessing Ford must have used multiple suppliers then. Could also be a Canadian market situation?

Here's a factory American Fox H-pipe from a Mustang (shamelessly pilfered from the Corral classifieds, lol), you can see the fat Bosch HEGO's:

 

[Deleted member 89374]

How come BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi are so expensive to fix?

Because you need to learn how fix them yourself and then they become affordable (whatever that means for your financial situation).