Why 5W40 and 0W40 Synthetic ?

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It was replaced by Platinum Euro 5w-40, for which a NOACK isn't listed.

If it's the same product as our friends get in Russia, then Noack is still pretty low... 7.1% according to this...

http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/12199-shell-helix-ultra-5w-40-svezhee/

Alas, production date on that batch is early 2013. Who knows if it's still the same today.

This is a pre-GTL oil. GTL have different sticker design.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
This is a pre-GTL oil. GTL have different sticker design.

It's the latest API SN labeled version, which was GTL-based already, as far as I know.

The pre-GTL version was just ordinary Group III (Yubase) and had a higher Noack value as a result.

 

[chrisri]

Well the bottle on that link is not a GTL oil, at least it wasn't sold or market as GTL when Shell sold that Ultra. In Europe GTL version has silver piston in place of Active Cleaning" logo. Graphics are different too.
Also new bottle has PurePlus logo.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Well the bottle on that link is not a GTL oil, at least it wasn't sold or market as GTL when Shell sold that Ultra. In Europe GTL version has silver piston in place of Active Cleaning" logo. Graphics are different too.
Also new bottle has PurePlus logo.

Well, in the US, this oil switched to GTL long before they've updated the bottles with PurePlus logo as well. So it's quite possible the same thing happened in Europe.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
The suggestion of an SAE35 grade came up today and it's discussion fits this thread. This new grade would open up endless opportunities for engines operating in warm climates that do not require an extended W performance rating. If adopted, I seriously doubt there would be an SAE35 mono-grade, but VII free, shear stable and affordable 10W35 and 15W35s would fill what seems to be the missing grade.
How would 10W35 and 15W35 grades look on paper? To find out enter either 5W30 or 10W30 and various %'s of either an SAE40 or SAE50 into a viscosity calculator until you have what you are looking for. If ever adapted, the SAE35 grade should have a minimum HTHS of 3.4 and KV100's somewhere between 11.4 and 13.7.

There already is an unofficial xW-35 grade. ACEA A3/B4 or C3/C4 and API CJ-4 xW-30 oils, such as German Castrol 0W-30 and Rotella 10W-30, are xW-35 oils.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The pre-GTL version was just ordinary Group III (Yubase) and had a higher Noack value as a result.

Yubase? Why would shell buy its Group III from Korea? I thought they produced their own.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It really is a fascinating subject

Mixing a base oil with a VII? I think you should definitely shift careers from computers to oil blending. Lol

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The pre-GTL version was just ordinary Group III (Yubase) and had a higher Noack value as a result.

Yubase? Why would shell buy its Group III from Korea? I thought they produced their own.

If I'm not mistaken, Yubase is VHVI, which means a higher quality group III (actually group III+ I guess). Possibly Shell needed that in order to make a Euro oil that would meet stringent mfg specs such as MB 229.5. The only place that made that stuff was SK Lubricants in Korea.


They had cargo handling sheets for it, so they were definitely getting it from Korea:
http://www.shell.com/content/dam/shell-n...hs-original.pdf

 

[userfriendly]

Gokhan; I agree with the unofficial XW35 engine oils you listed fitting the description. I was thinking of a grade that would also catch the XW40s that play in the low KV100/13s. This in-between grade could spell the beginning of the end for HDEO 15W40. A cost effective shear stable engine oil that delivers improved fuel economy over 15W40, while providing better protection than XW30s.
Edit; When 10W30 is recommended for HDEO applications, that does not mean ANY 10W30 will do. The HTHS must meet a minimum specified by the engine manufacture.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The pre-GTL version was just ordinary Group III (Yubase) and had a higher Noack value as a result.

Yubase? Why would shell buy its Group III from Korea? I thought they produced their own.

If I'm not mistaken, Yubase is VHVI, which means a higher quality group III (actually group III+ I guess). Possibly Shell needed that in order to make a Euro oil that would meet stringent mfg specs such as MB 229.5. The only place that made that stuff was SK Lubricants in Korea.


They had cargo handling sheets for it, so they were definitely getting it from Korea:
http://www.shell.com/content/dam/shell-n...hs-original.pdf

Ah, thanks. Korean Yubase seems to be world's largest Group III supply. This is interesting article on Group III (PDF link).

Shell also makes XHVI (Shell trademark) Group III (just Google it), which appears to be made directly from wax. ExxonMobil Visom is probably made from wax as well.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Well the bottle on that link is not a GTL oil, at least it wasn't sold or market as GTL when Shell sold that Ultra. In Europe GTL version has silver piston in place of Active Cleaning" logo. Graphics are different too.
Also new bottle has PurePlus logo.


According to Shell, who we asked about this, they used the old bottles for a while to "use them up" even though the product in them was the new GTL-based product.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It really is a fascinating subject

Mixing a base oil with a VII? I think you should definitely shift careers from computers to oil blending. Lol

Naw, the whole mixing of the various bases together, trying to capitalize on the strengths of some whilst compensating for the weaknesses by using others. Then tweaking the final product with VII. Seems like a bit of an art IMHO, particularly with the suite of OEM testing protocols the product has to pass.

And comically enough, I am working to get an ME degree, though I have no intention of leaving the IT field. I love learning, it keeps your mind fresh and active. I'm always up for a challenge

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Gokhan; I agree with the unofficial XW35 engine oils you listed fitting the description. I was thinking of a grade that would also catch the XW40s that play in the low KV100/13s. This in-between grade could spell the beginning of the end for HDEO 15W40. A cost effective shear stable engine oil that delivers improved fuel economy over 15W40, while providing better protection than XW30s.
Edit; When 10W30 is recommended for HDEO applications, that does not mean ANY 10W30 will do. The HTHS must meet a minimum specified by the engine manufacture.

Don't forget that 15W-40, 20W-40, 25W-40, and 40 have higher HTHS spec than 0W-40, 5W-40, and 10W-40 -- 3.7 cP vs. 3.5, respectively. Therefore, there is already a clear specification split between thin xW-40 (0W-40, 5W-40, and 10W-40) and thick xW-40 (15W-40, 20W-40, 25W-40, and 40).

Yes, that's why I call an HDEO 10W-30 "10W-35." It not only has HTHSV >= 3.5 cP but also its KV100 is at the upper limit of xW-30. It's exactly the same thing for A3/B4 and C3/C4 xW-30 oils. These are "xW-35" oils -- it's not just the HTHSV.

Therefore, we already have thin xW-40 oils, which are the 0W-40, 5W-40, and 10W-40. I've run 15W-40 in the past and I know how thick it feels in the engine in comparison to 10W-40 and 0W-40, which I have also run. 15W-40 HTHSV runs around 4.5 cP, which is a lot higher than 10W-40 HTHSV, typically below 4.0 cP. HD trucks that care more on fuel economy than engine wear use 5W-40 as a result. I don't think you need an xW-35 designation. If you need a thick xW-30, get the A3/B4, C3/C4, or CJ-4 xW-30 oils. If you need a thin xW-40, get any 0W-40, 5W-40, or 10W-40, preferably 0W-40 or 5W-40.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And comically enough, I am working to get an ME degree, though I have no intention of leaving the IT field. I love learning, it keeps your mind fresh and active. I'm always up for a challenge

Ah, that's great!

 

[userfriendly]

Fantastic post Gokhan; Obvious to those like you who know the difference, the SAE35 would be redundant. I keep referring to Dustyroads's Diesel uoa and what would it take to loosen the death grip 15W40's have on that market segment. Then A_Harmon dropped the SAE35 bomb. I picked it up and brought it here. So humor me. If you are already using the SAE 35 in your vocabulary, does it have a future?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Fantastic post Gokhan; Obvious to those like you who know the difference, the SAE35 would be redundant. I keep referring to Dustyroads's Diesel uoa and what would it take to loosen the death grip 15W40's have on that market segment. Then A_Harmon dropped the SAE35 bomb. I picked it up, ran with it and here it ended up. So humor me. If you are already using the SAE 35 in your vocabulary, does it have a future?

I think I introduced SAE 35 ("xW-35") myself long before A_Harman did to mock German Castrol 0W-30, which some people see as the Holy Fluid. Lol

I used it to point out that it's nothing but a thick(er) 0W-30. It's not difficult at all to achieve HTHSV >= 3.5 cP if the KV100 of your xW-30 is right at the xW-40 limit to begin with.

 

[userfriendly]

Right on Bro! (does that date me?) We are on a roll. Next up is the "0W40/5W40 shears down to a XW30 anyway, so why not start with an XW30?" crowd. The XW35 might be a cost effective shear stable solution, not so much for us, but for people living in countries that pay a fortune for engine oils like M1 0w40. In addition to the HDEO market, do you think SAE35 would appeal and avoid confusion with the Euro crowd who are looking at HTHS minimums too?

 

[Garak]

Would it help? In most European countries, I doubt there are a pile of ILSAC rated 30s on the shelf. Here, there are plenty, but the average European car driver doesn't pay attention to the label or the manual, and sometimes that even extends to the service people.

 

[Jetronic]

every oil on the shelves here has an acea rating. some of them (c2 mainly) also have an ilsac rating.

 

[Garak]

Of course, C2 is very rare out here. Here, we get enough A1/B1 A5/B5 oils, and those are always ILSAC rated, at least in my experience.