Why 5W40 and 0W40 Synthetic ?

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chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri

Yes it seems our SynPower is PAO synthetic, and a very well priced oil at the moment. It was on sale for €35 for a 5 litre jug. I'm looking forward to see how it will stand up compared with SHU, Selenia WR, and Urania Fe Ls 5w30 I used and I'm using now.


Let me know how it goes. I am using SynPower 5w30 as of now and I plan to try Shell Helix Ultra next year because the prices drop and now SHU 5w30 is 4 EUR cheaper than SynPower (price difference is per liter).
 
Volodymyr no problem, my first next oil change will probably be on my Berlingo 1.6 HDI, I do about 5k per month with these. I'm currently running TQ 9000 in it, just did a OC. Before that I used Urania I've mentioned before. For now I can't see any difference, but will see later in OCI if Total is robust as Urania. Urania is 100k oil in certain applications though.

I'll put Valvoline in for next OCI and report back.
 
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I think I'll get a bottle of Valvoline next month, though my next oil change is nearly a year off.

I was looking to get Total Quartz Energy 0w30 which is about 2/3rd the price of Valvoline, but not available locally. that's a PAO/ester synthetic.
 
I did use castrol edge 5w40 Turbo Diesel FST (second oci) and am using the 5th liter from that bottle + some castrol magnatec 5w-40 leftovers (C3 aswell) now. The shell is 5w30 C3/C2/A3/B4

But, for both oci with Castrol I find the dpf regens are coming sooner than normal (300-400 miles where it's normally 500+). the factory fill was Selenia (C2 rated) and the third fill was Total which was installed by the dealer.

The manufacturer requires C2 only, but I'm either running very low rpm (automated gearbox, as low as 1050 rpm while cruising) or I run it up to and beyond redline if conditions are favourably, thus I wanted C3 oil.

However, my past experience with Total Quartz 9000 5w-40 in customers cars taught me that the sapslevel is of little to no consequence to the dpf, so I'm going for A3/B4 now. TBN is key IMO. I wanted the Energy 0w30 because it's only barely above the saps limit for C3 but has an 8.8 TBN vs 7-ish for a C3 (or lower)

30 grade is in my opinion better for an A3/B4/C3 oil because the base oils will be of higher viscosity than for a 5W40, and there'll be significantly more oil and less viscosity modifier in the mix. Check the blending guides posted above...

If I could get a 20 weight with an HTHS above 3, I'd consider it aswell.
 
Jet, I lost you here. There's no way an oil can carry both A3/B4 and C3. They are mutually exclusive. As for full SAPS in DPF car, well I generally agree. We had a fleet of Jumpers with 2.2 Puma , and although they were utter POS, they were POS with C3 and bulk B4. No difference.
 
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Jet, I lost you here. There's no way an oil can carry both A3/B4 and C3. They are mutually exclusive. As for full SAPS in DPF car, well I generally agree. We had a fleet of Jumpers with 2.2 Puma , and although they were utter POS, they were POS with C3 and bulk B4. No difference.


Normally if A3/B4 is combined with C3 it means that ACEA 2004 sequence is used.
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Jet, I lost you here. There's no way an oil can carry both A3/B4 and C3. They are mutually exclusive. As for full SAPS in DPF car, well I generally agree. We had a fleet of Jumpers with 2.2 Puma , and although they were utter POS, they were POS with C3 and bulk B4. No difference.


Normally if A3/B4 is combined with C3 it means that ACEA 2004 sequence is used.


Or 2007. Both obsolete and irrelevant. A3/B4 requires minimum TBN of 10, there's no way any mid or low SAPS culd meet that.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Jet, I lost you here. There's no way an oil can carry both A3/B4 and C3. They are mutually exclusive. As for full SAPS in DPF car, well I generally agree. We had a fleet of Jumpers with 2.2 Puma , and although they were utter POS, they were POS with C3 and bulk B4. No difference.


before 2008 an oil could be C2/C3/A3/B4 all together.... there used to be only a max saps limit for A3/B4 and no TBN minimum. the same tests needed to be passed for both A3/B4 and C3 oils

C3 oil qualifies for C2 if there's enough fuel savings (friction modifiers and low KV no doubt).

This was leftover oil, but if you look up the PDS for Shell Helix Ultra Extra diesel 5w30 you'll see that they claimed all the above certifications...
 
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic

30 grade is in my opinion better for an A3/B4/C3 oil because the base oils will be of higher viscosity than for a 5W40, and there'll be significantly more oil and less viscosity modifier in the mix. Check the blending guides posted above...


That's just a guide. Furthermore the oils being blended are just API SN oils, no mention of ACEA and the 5w30 had only an HTHS of 3.2, making it not suitable for most Euro apps.
 
That's true, the euro oils will have slightly heavier basestock

but all the guides I've seens point to the same thing: a 5w30 has more oil and less VM compared to a 5w40...

A lot of euro applications suffice with a 2.9 HTHS aswell.
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
That's true, the euro oils will have slightly heavier basestock

but all the guides I've seens point to the same thing: a 5w30 has more oil and less VM compared to a 5w40...

A lot of euro applications suffice with a 2.9 HTHS aswell.


If they spec it, sure. If they spec an oil with an HTHS >=3.5cP, then I wouldn't use one that isn't. Simple as that.

BTW, how many guides have you seen?

The issue, even with PAO, is that a given base has a limit in terms of its ability to meet CCS/MRV. Obviously the heavier the base, the poorer the cold temp performance. For example, SpectraSyn 10, which is Mobil's 10cSt PAO base meets the MRV requirements for a 0w-xx but won't meet the CCS requirements for a 5w-xx. The slightly lighter SpectraSyn 8 however can make a 5w-20, LOL! This is why lighter bases are blended in and then VM added to make up the spread (oversimplifying here a bit). You have to hit both targets. The difference between a Euro 5w30/0w-30 and 5w-40 is very little in terms of final viscosity. The 30's are always near the top of the range the 40's near the bottom. However an API SN GF-5 5w30 is much closer to the bottom of the range for a 30, and subsequently can be blended using far less VM as the cold temp target is the same but the hot viscosity (and HTHS) are much lower.

It really is a fascinating subject
smile.gif
 
Good one Overkill; I had to read your post over to make sure we were on the same page. In the pour point discussion, I mentioned that modern engine oils appear to pass flow & pumping W numbers one or two grades below their cold cranking pass grade.
For clarification purposes, is that the point you were making, or am I missing something?
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Good one Overkill; I had to read your post over to make sure we were on the same page. In the pour point discussion, I mentioned that modern engine oils appear to pass flow & pumping W numbers one or two grades below their cold cranking pass grade.
For clarification purposes, is that the point you were making, or am I missing something?


Kind of. There are always the two targets (pour point/flow is not a performance target), CCS and MRV, with CCS being the "harder" target to hit with a much stricter limit. Just looking at the Mobil SpectraSyn bases you can see their Pour Point and low temp viscosity is absolutely fantastic, but when you get into the heavier bases CCS suffers.

And of course CCS is always measured 5C higher for the same grade as MRV too.

Again bringing up SpectraSyn 8:
MRV @ -40C: 16,200cP (WELL below the 60,000cP limit and a pass for the 0w-xx designation)
CCS @ -30C: 4,800cP (note that this is the 5w-xx CCS measure temp and not the 0w-xx CCS which would correspond with the MRV measure point)
Pour: -48C (-54F)

So this particular base could pass for a 5w-20 "straight" without VII's. It is the CCS performance that prevents it from getting the 0w-xx performance designation as visc roughly doubles/halves with each 5C step so at -35C (the CCS 0w-xx designation target) The base would be roughly 9,600cP; well about the limit of 6,200cP.

We on the same page?
smile.gif
 
Shannow posted that the W grade is allowed to slip a grade and say in grade while doing so.
Maybe it was not intentional, but I think you nailed it there. The CCS is the more difficult test to pass, you mentioned, more so with the heavier grades, but the low temperature viscosity remains fantastic. In other words, the relationship between grades is not linear in the cold department. Some may say the rules punish the heavier grades. I say if the engine starts, the oil better pump. My guess that as an engine oil degrades or ages, the cold flow and pumping performance and not so much the CCS takes the bigger hit.
In other words, if there is a one grade performance split between ccs and mrv in addition to the 5C that is already there, good. A two grade W performance grade pass split... even better. The performance difference between synthetics and conventional engine oil may be more in how they age and retain their W rating over miles and time than how they perform when fresh.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
That's true, the euro oils will have slightly heavier basestock

but all the guides I've seens point to the same thing: a 5w30 has more oil and less VM compared to a 5w40...

A lot of euro applications suffice with a 2.9 HTHS aswell.


If they spec it, sure. If they spec an oil with an HTHS >=3.5cP, then I wouldn't use one that isn't. Simple as that.

.
.
.

It really is a fascinating subject
smile.gif



Problem is comparing apples and apples, and it's not happening.
Here's some of the stuff that I can get locally. They are Castrol Edge A3/B4 products...the 0W40 is about 20-25% more expensive, and the PDS seems to indicate why.

Edge 0W40 ... typically $100 for 5L

Edge 5W40 - $80(ish)

Edge 5W30 A3/B4 - about $80, but regularly on special at $35-$40, and the staple in my stash.

Clearly two are GrIII predominantly, and one appears to use something more...PP on the 0W40 is vastly different to the others.

As per OVERKILL's assertion, the 0W40 is at the low end...Castrol 0W40 has always been there in Oz.

I'd support the argument that the 5W30 has heavier basestocks than the 5W40, but again they are clearly disparate oils.

Per this paper, and the 10W30s contained therein as being sort of similar in concept to the 3.5+ HTHS euro oils...

ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-05-25/052501ATT12.PDF

The 30s HAVE to be at the high end of their KV to stay above 3 at the end of the OCI.

(little comment at the end regarding 15W40 and 3.7 min has me wondering about the 0W40/5W40 HDMOs)
 
Hi Shannow,
I take it you are saying we get a fair idea of the Castrol products via their Pour Points.

0W40 = -60 C
5W40 = -42 C
5W30 = -36 C

The 5W40 and 5W30 are predominantly Group 3, while the 0W40 uses PAO because of it's excellent low temperature characteristics. As OverKill pointed out earlier.

I recall speaking to a Castrol Tech over the phone many years ago. He clearly told me that only Edge 0W40 and 10W60 contains Group 4 base. All the other Edge products are pure Group 3 and none of the Edge products contain any Group 5 anymore (I suspect on 10W60 did in the very old days).
 
Price point also factors in.

Since these Grp III basestocks have become prevalent.
If in doubt, I always compare pour points and price points to get a feel for what I'm actually paying for.

But at the end of the day, it's the performance of the finished oil that matters most.
And if I'm getting the results I'm happy with and It's affordable, then I don't worry about it at all as long as there's no changes to the equation.
I just keep doing what works as it makes it easier to sleep at night.

As I have indicated previously on the forum.
My interest in some of these 0w-40 grades has well and truly been piqued.
This thread has renewed my interest.
Thanks.
 
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The suggestion of an SAE35 grade came up today and it's discussion fits this thread. This new grade would open up endless opportunities for engines operating in warm climates that do not require an extended W performance rating. If adopted, I seriously doubt there would be an SAE35 mono-grade, but VII free, shear stable and affordable 10W35 and 15W35s would fill what seems to be the missing grade.
How would 10W35 and 15W35 grades look on paper? To find out enter either 5W30 or 10W30 and various %'s of either an SAE40 or SAE50 into a viscosity calculator until you have what you are looking for. If ever adapted, the SAE35 grade should have a minimum HTHS of 3.4 and KV100's somewhere between 11.4 and 13.7.
 
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