Why 5W40 and 0W40 Synthetic ?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Why are you pointing out the obvious? PU was a mostly PAO oil


This is the current formulation for PU and it most certainly isn't PAO, it is GTL. So it obviously isn't that obvious

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
and PP without PurePlus was mostly a low-grade Group III. Apples to oranges.


Hardly. You had no problem cross comparing entirely different grades with different certifications/approvals but comparing two of the same grade for the same application from the same manufacturer is suddenly apples to oranges?

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Visom base stocks have VI of 136 and 142 *snip*

GTL typically has VI of 140 and above. Modern Group III+ and GTL easily beat most PAOs' VI.


I already told you VI doesn't tell the whole story, heck I gave you some bloody examples! Why are you continuing to go on about VI? It's a bloody calculation based on 40C and 100C viscosity, it does NOT cover the HUGE difference between PAO and any of these other high VI bases you keep chest thumping about which is PAO's massive advantage at lower temperatures.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Where PAO really excels is its resistance to oxidation, which is probably the most important quality of a base oil. That's what makes PAO a premium base oil.


Where PAO really excels, which is covered in the Infineum presentation I linked, is both oxidation resistance and extreme cold temperature performance. BOTH of those qualities are what make it a premium base oil.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can have a quality 0W-40 even with a Group II+/IV synthetic blend


And your point? Current 0w-40's are all a blend of bases designed to meet a specific suit of performance targets. I'm not sure what this has to do with you obsessing about the VI of GTL and Group III+ and ignoring the fact that this does not cover one of the main specific advantages of PAO, which applies DIRECTLY to the 0w-xx designation, and that is the ability for it to meet extreme low temperature performance targets.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Why are you pointing out the obvious? PU was a mostly PAO oil

This is the current formulation for PU and it most certainly isn't PAO, it is GTL. So it obviously isn't that obvious

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
and PP without PurePlus was mostly a low-grade Group III. Apples to oranges.

Hardly. You had no problem cross comparing entirely different grades with different certifications/approvals but comparing two of the same grade for the same application from the same manufacturer is suddenly apples to oranges?

"Current formulation for PU??" They don't even make PU (Pennzoil Ultra) anymore. It's a defunct oil. Now, they make Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (PUP), and PUP doesn't even come in 5W-40 grade. Somehow you got this completely upside down. That's why I was so puzzled with your original post with you being a very frequent poster because, for most people here, it is obvious.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
"Current formulation for PU??" They don't even make PU (Pennzoil Ultra) anymore. It's a defunct oil.

It just got renamed to Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w-40.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
"Current formulation for PU??" They don't even make PU (Pennzoil Ultra) anymore. It's a defunct oil.

It just got renamed to Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w-40.

Renamed?? No, they discontinued the Ultra Euro 5W-40 and kept the Platinum Euro 5W-40. In the past, there were both Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40. Now, there is only Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40. They simply got rid of the Ultra Euro 5W-40 variety and kept only the Platinum Euro 5w-40 variety. A lot more importantly, Ultra was a PAO oil (hence, very low NOACK) and Platinum was a Group III oil. New Platinum and Platinum Ultra (no 5W-40 for the latter) are both GTL oils.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
"Current formulation for PU??" They don't even make PU (Pennzoil Ultra) anymore. It's a defunct oil.

It just got renamed to Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w-40.

Renamed?? No, they discontinued the Ultra Euro 5W-40 and kept the Platinum Euro 5W-40. In the past, there were both Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40. Now, there is only Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40. They simply got rid of the Ultra Euro 5W-40 variety and kept only the Platinum Euro 5w-40 variety. A lot more importantly, Ultra was a PAO oil (hence, very low NOACK) and Platinum was a Group III oil. New Platinum and Platinum Ultra (no 5W-40 for the latter) are both GTL oils.

Nope, Ultra was rebadged Shell Helix from Europe, and was Group III oil. In EU Shell was coming as HC oil, which means it was not PAO based oil (majority of base stock). While Ultra had low NOACK, HTHS was 3.68, which is so so. Platinm 5W30 Euro LL with GTL base stock now has HTHS 3.68.
They did not get rid of Ultra. They just streamlined their product range.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Renamed?? No, they discontinued the Ultra Euro 5W-40 and kept the Platinum Euro 5W-40. In the past, there were both Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40.

Not at all. First there was Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Then it got renamed to Pennzoil Ultra Euro. And then it got renamed to Pennzoil Platinum Euro again. SOPUS just can't make up their mind.

Quote:
A lot more importantly, Ultra was a PAO oil (hence, very low NOACK) and Platinum was a Group III oil.

How about some proof that it was PAO? AFAIK, it was never PAO. It was GTL, which can achieve similarly low Noack levels. You can tell it was no PAO by its fairly high pour point.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Renamed?? No, they discontinued the Ultra Euro 5W-40 and kept the Platinum Euro 5W-40. In the past, there were both Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40.

Not at all. First there was Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Then it got renamed to Pennzoil Ultra Euro. And then it got renamed to Pennzoil Platinum Euro again.

Quote:
A lot more importantly, Ultra was a PAO oil (hence, very low NOACK) and Platinum was a Group III oil.

How about some proof that it was PAO? AFAIK, it was never PAO. It was GTL, which can achieve similarly low Noack levels. You can tell it was no PAO by its fairly high pour point.

I thought old Ultra was GRIII not GTL?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I thought old Ultra was GRIII not GTL?

Initially it was group III, but some time in 2013 SOPUS started using GTL, but was still using the old labels. That is when the spec sheet got updated to reflect the new lower Noack. Then in 2014 they finally rebranded it back to Pennzoil Platinum Euro.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I thought old Ultra was GRIII not GTL?

Initially it was group III, but some time in 2013 SOPUS started using GTL, but was still using the old labels. That is when the spec sheet got updated to reflect the new lower Noack.


Oh yeah, you are right. And HTHS was really good and still is: 3.88!
I was referring to older version which was GRIII.

 

[volodymyr]

chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Than you guys get different version, ours have 229.5 spec in 5w40 grade.


I think we definitely got a different version of SynPower in Europe. It is even marked as Vollsynthetisches in Germany: http://www.valvolineeurope.com/deutsch/products/engine_oils/synpower/cid(904)/synpower_5w30

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

"Current formulation for Pennzoil Ultra??" They don't even make Pennzoil Ultra (Pennzoil Ultra) anymore.


1. YOU claimed Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 was PAO-based, I was responding to YOUR claim.
2. The "current" formulation of the product (with the most recent PDS being from 2013) is GTL-based.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's a defunct oil. Now, they make Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (Pennzoil UltraP), and Pennzoil UltraP doesn't even come in 5W-40 grade.


It was replaced by Platinum Euro 5w-40, for which a NOACK isn't listed. Since I specifically mentioned NOACK and that's what we were discussing it was pretty obvious I wasn't talking about this oil

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Somehow you got this completely upside down. That's why I was so puzzled with your original post with you being a very frequent poster because, for most people here, it is obvious.


I'm not sure how me addressing YOUR claim of Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 being PAO-based makes me upside down

But this is what you seem to do, instead of addressing the points being made you pretend fake confusion like somebody else is out to lunch instead of dealing with the fact you either misspoke or cited incorrect information. You also tend to latch onto separate pieces of a post, quote them out of context and completely ignore the rest of it, focusing only on something you hope you can use to distract from the issues the post you've pulled it from was discussing.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
A lot more importantly, Ultra was a PAO oil (hence, very low NOACK) and Platinum was a Group III oil. New Platinum and Platinum Ultra (no 5W-40 for the latter) are both GTL oils.

How is PU a defunct oil? Changing the name doesn't change their approach or product tiering. If you have a flat tire and simply rotate the tires, does that fix your flat?

And, still on about phantom products? We should have a contest here to see how many posters can get pictures of the products in the wild, without setting foot in a dealership or a SOPUS distributor or getting it from an online reseller or shipped by Shell themselves.

If we had something other than stock photos, because, as I indicate, these products are next to impossible to find, we could compare bar code numbers on the back of the bottle. For instance, despite Quaker State's website, when Defy was introduced, it replaced QSED and took over its bar codes.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I thought old Ultra was GRIII not GTL?

Initially it was group III, but some time in 2013 SOPennzoil UltraS started using GTL, but was still using the old labels. That is when the spec sheet got updated to reflect the new lower Noack. Then in 2014 they finally rebranded it back to Pennzoil Platinum Euro.





Correct. The 2013 PDS (which I call the "current" version, as it was the last PDS for the product and the last one to have NOACK listed) was the GTL-based Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40, which was the stuff I bought for the M5. It had the extremely low 6.8% NOACK figure.

There was:

1. The original Platinum Euro 5w-40 (Group III)
API SM
100C: 13.1 cSt
40C: 74.4 cSt
Flash: 420F (215.5C)
VI: 179
Pour: -39C
CCS: Just max listed at 6,600cP
HTHS: 3.68cP
NOACK: 11%

2. The Ultra Euro 5w-40 (2013, GTL)
API SN
100C: 13.2 cSt
40C: 80.7cSt
Flash: 420F(215.5C)
VI: 166
Pour: -45C
CCS: 6,200cP
HTHS: 3.88cP
NOACK: 6.8%

3. The Platinum Euro 5w-40 (2015, GTL)
API SN
100C: 13.3 cSt
40C: 80.8cSt
Flash: 215C
VI: 167
CCS: 6,300cP
MRV: 19,500cP

As QP noted, #2 and #3 are extremely similar. They may even be the same oil. But since SOPennzoil UltraS no longer lists NOACK or HTHS on the PDS and didn't list MRV on the previous ones, it is hard to say for sure.


Back when we did the SOPennzoil UltraS Q&A, it was asked when they first started using GTL, and there was a separate question regarding when Ultra Euro was switched to using GTL. To both questions, the answer was the same:

Originally Posted By: SOPennzoil UltraS

We began switching production facilities to use PurePlus™ base oil in our Pennzoil Platinum® line of motor oils—bulk, packaged and Eco-box—in 2013. Beginning February 1, 2014, Pennzoil Platinum® packaging indicated the use of this technology was 100%, and all production locations have switched.


Which of course corresponded with the "new" PDS (at the time, 2013) for Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40 and the massive drop in NOACK. That was when the product became the "hot ticket" on here and many wanted to try and find it. Of course that proved to be very difficult and I ended up ordering mine from AMAZON, which resold it straight from SHELL.

 

[Gokhan]

Pennzoil Ultra (Platinum) NOACK jumped sky-high for all other viscosity grades, for which the value is listed, when their product labeling started claiming PurePlus (GTL). Here is the old datasheet (PDF link).

So, if only labeling changed and it was using GTL before and GTL now, why has the NOACK jumped to as high as 13% from as little as 5%?

If the spec sheets for the old PU and new Pennzoil Platinum 5W-40 are almost identical, I could believe that it's just a name change for that particular viscosity grade.

Regarding your original post that started this, comparing discontinued oils with current oils for your argument's sake, especially with a confusion between names/labeling? Well...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Pennzoil Ultra (Platinum) NOACK jumped sky-high for all other viscosity grades, for which the value is listed, when their product labeling started claiming PurePlus (GTL). Here is the old datasheet (PDF link).

So, if only labeling changed and it was using GTL before and GTL now, why has the NOACK jumped to as high as 13% from as little as 5%?

If the spec sheets for the old PU and new Pennzoil Platinum 5W-40 are almost identical, I could believe that it's just a name change for that particular viscosity grade.


Actually, it was well after they started using GTL but yes, after the most recent name/label change. Keep in mind, they started the GTL changeover in 2013. The original Q&A with them was during the time that a lot of the PDS documents were showing incredibly low NOACK figures, which was immediately after they started using GTL. This was across the board. Products with "normal" NOACK volatility numbers all of a sudden had incredibly low ones. Unfortunately I don't have those older PDS's on this computer, they are on my one at the office, but if you search you'll find plenty of discussion about it.

Then, when they did the more recent product changeup and made Ultra into Ultra Platinum we saw a lot of those incredible NOACK figures go down the toilet

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Regarding your original post that started this, comparing discontinued oils with current oils for your argument's sake, especially with a confusion between names/labeling? Well...


Well what? You pretending you weren't involved? Please. Claiming Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 was PAO-based definitely counts as active participation. I may have brought up the product but you took this conversation into the weeds.

And there was no "for argument's sake", we were discussing volatility and those two products, of the same grade, for the same applications and by the same manufacturer had strikingly different NOACK volatility figures due to base oil selection. I was pointing that out. And also comparing it to the similarly certified Mobil 0w-40 product which has low NOACK volatility.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Then, when they did the more recent product changeup and made Ultra into Ultra Platinum we saw a lot of those incredible NOACK figures go down the toilet

Thanks, good info. You've now more or less convinced me that the "newer old" PU was GTL.

I wonder what has changed during the PurePlus relabeling. Perhaps they started running the GTL catalyst reactors faster to decrease the cost at the expense of base-stock quality.

It's also interesting that GTL isn't picking up. ExxonMobil gave up on their GTL plant based on cost figures and there is still no other company planning to make GTL base stocks in the next decade. Shell's large Pearl plant in Qatar along with their small Bintulu, Malaysia, plant are the only ones producing GTL base stocks.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Then, when they did the more recent product changeup and made Ultra into Ultra Platinum we saw a lot of those incredible NOACK figures go down the toilet

Thanks, good info. You've now more or less convinced me that the "newer old" PU was GTL.

Excellent, progress

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I wonder what has changed during the PurePlus relabeling. Perhaps they started running the GTL catalyst reactors faster to decrease the cost at the expense of base-stock quality?


That question was posted to them on the more recent Q&A IIRC and they said that we shouldn't just focus on NOACK and that the newer formulations were "just as good", LOL! I think you might be right about them chasing value on the GTL side.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's also interesting that GTL isn't picking up. ExxonMobil gave up on their GTL plant based on cost figures and there is still no other company planning to make GTL base stocks in the next decade. Shell's large Pearl plant in Qatar along with their small Bintulu, Malaysia, plant are the only ones producing GTL base stocks.


Yes, Mobil gave up on the one plant, but, IIRC, they had another joint venture plant that was supposed to come on-line this year. I can't find much news about it though

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That question was posted to them on the more recent Q&A IIRC and they said that we shouldn't just focus on NOACK and that the newer formulations were "just as good", LOL! I think you might be right about them chasing value on the GTL side.

Lol indeed.

Quote:
Yes, Mobil gave up on the one plant, but, IIRC, they had another joint venture plant that was supposed to come on-line this year. I can't find much news about it though

This table is from the following reference (PDF link). The future for GTL base stocks looks bleak:

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Than you guys get different version, ours have 229.5 spec in 5w40 grade.


I think we definitely got a different version of SynPower in Europe. It is even marked as Vollsynthetisches in Germany: http://www.valvolineeurope.com/deutsch/products/engine_oils/synpower/cid(904)/synpower_5w30


Yes it seems our SynPower is PAO synthetic, and a very well priced oil at the moment. It was on sale for €35 for a 5 litre jug. I'm looking forward to see how it will stand up compared with SHU, Selenia WR, and Urania Fe Ls 5w30 I used and I'm using now.