Why 10K Miles Oil change may not be good!

[billt460]

Better engineering and improved machining has lead to tighter tolerances and better ring seal with improved combustion efficiency, thermal efficiency, and mechanical efficiency.

We're willing to accept that modern engines aren't worn out and in need of a rebuild at 100k miles. We accept that advancements have allowed them to last much longer. Why can't we do the same with oil?

That's not true at all. Today with CAFE requirements getting both stricter and harder for manufacturers to meet, both Honda and Toyota are building their engines with extremely loose fitting rings, in an effort to produce less rotational resistance. Thereby chasing minuscule increases in mileage.

The end result is Toyota is having big problems with coking and gunking up of piston ring grooves, that are causing oil rings to freeze up, causing scored cylinder walls and destroyed engines. And Honda is having massive fuel dilution issues with gasoline contaminating crankcase oil.

Some people are complaining to dealers the odor of fuel is making them sick. And others are complaining the oil level is showing over 1 quart overfilled in as little as 1,000 miles after an oil change. Because of severe gasoline contamination of the crankcase oil.

ALL of this is from building engines LOOSER not TIGHTER. Tolerances are in fact looser, which in turn is causing worse ring sealing, not better. The exact opposite of what you are claiming. And ALL of this requires more frequent oil changes, not less.

And I don't care how great the oil is, or claims to be that you put in your engine. If it's going to get diluted with over a quart of gasoline in as little as 1,000 miles.

 

[Blinker]

That's not true at all. Today with CAFE requirements getting both stricter and harder for manufacturers to meet, both Honda and Toyota are building their engines with extremely loose fitting rings, in an effort to produce less rotational resistance. Thereby chasing minuscule increases in mileage.

The end result is Toyota is having big problems with coking and gunking up of piston ring grooves, that are causing oil rings to freeze up, causing scored cylinder walls and destroyed engines. And Honda is having massive fuel dilution issues with gasoline contaminating crankcase oil.

Some people are complaining to dealers the odor of fuel is making them sick. And others are complaining the oil level is showing over 1 quart overfilled in as little as 1,000 miles after an oil change. Because of severe gasoline contamination of the crankcase oil.

ALL of this is from building engines LOOSER not TIGHTER. Tolerances are in fact looser, which in turn is causing worse ring sealing, not better. The exact opposite of what you are claiming. And ALL of this requires more frequent oil changes, not less.

And I don't care how great the oil is, or claims to be that you put in your engine. If it's going to get diluted with over a quart of gasoline in as little as 1,000 miles.

Looser fitting piston rings? No.

Low tension piston rings? Yes.

There is a difference.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

IMO the 10k OCI was feasible a few years ago but now that they continue to neuter the oils and take all of the good antiwear ingredients out its going in the opposite direction. I change the oil in everything I own at 5000 miles max.

Huh? Arguably the performance requirements of API SP are more stringent than API SN or SM due to the lack of a TGDI chain wear test.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

That's not true at all. Today with CAFE requirements getting both stricter and harder for manufacturers to meet, both Honda and Toyota are building their engines with extremely loose fitting rings, in an effort to produce less rotational resistance. Thereby chasing minuscule increases in mileage.

The end result is Toyota is having big problems with coking and gunking up of piston ring grooves, that are causing oil rings to freeze up, causing scored cylinder walls and destroyed engines. And Honda is having massive fuel dilution issues with gasoline contaminating crankcase oil.

Some people are complaining to dealers the odor of fuel is making them sick. And others are complaining the oil level is showing over 1 quart overfilled in as little as 1,000 miles after an oil change. Because of severe gasoline contamination of the crankcase oil.

ALL of this is from building engines LOOSER not TIGHTER. Tolerances are in fact looser, which in turn is causing worse ring sealing, not better. The exact opposite of what you are claiming. And ALL of this requires more frequent oil changes, not less.

And I don't care how great the oil is, or claims to be that you put in your engine. If it's going to get diluted with over a quart of gasoline in as little as 1,000 miles.

I disagree with your analogy. I think it's more like the evolution of engines. Engines are much more advanced these days, produce less emissions and blow-by gases, are more efficient, last much longer, etc... same way with oils. (and filters) An OEM engine in the early 70s probably dumped more contaminants in the oil in 3,000 miles than a 2010+ engine does in 20,000-25,000 miles. Better engineering and improved machining has lead to tighter tolerances and better ring seal with improved combustion efficiency, thermal efficiency, and mechanical efficiency. On top of oil quality improving a lot in that same timeframe, plus brands like Amsoil and HPL reaching far beyond that, the oil isn't being abused as much from a contamination perspective. If the oil is shear and thermally stable and fuel/water dilution is in check, I say let it ride.

We're willing to accept that modern engines aren't worn out and in need of a rebuild at 100k miles. We accept that advancements have allowed them to last much longer. Why can't we do the same with oil?

I’m inclined to agree with @billt460 here particularly on the Toyota is not as good as everyone thinks they are front.. great examples… but. @RDY4WAR can you elaborate on what you are calling a “modern engine?”

Is an engine from, say, 2002 modern at 20 years old? Are you more referring into the engines before Electronic Fuel Injection? Even then, DI engines seem to be taking us backwards..

 

[TiGeo]

The issue really is....how long are you keeping your car? Do you lease it? If you are a dump every 3 years/trade-in person, why do anything beyond the manual (10K changes etc.) using the least expensive products that meet the manufacturer's recommendations? Keep a vehicle 10 years+ paid off? I would do the traditional 5K changes using a name-brand oil. There are also many oils (HPL!) that can easily go to 10K while maintaining your engine. Oil changes are so freakin' cheap it's just not something to nickle/dime for a long-term ownership experience.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The issue really is....how long are you keeping your car? Do you lease it? If you are a dump every 3 years/trade-in person, why do anything beyond the manual (10K changes etc.) using the least expensive products that meet the manufacturer's recommendations? Keep a vehicle 10 years+ paid off? I would do the traditional 5K changes using a name-brand oil. There are also many oils (HPL!) that can easily go to 10K while maintaining your engine. Oil changes are so freakin' cheap it's just not something to nickle/dime for a long-term ownership experience.

I have on pretty good authority that even in the 3.5EB (well over a BILLION miles and hundreds of thousands of hours of idling) that even the "pedestrian " HPL PCMO does not result in stuck rings or timing chain/phaser/tensioner issues with 5k FCI so I feel safe trying my own machine on it. If for some odd reason my E30 tune (usually about 16 gallons of pump E85 per tank) and driving habits show I could use a little "extra", I'll simply bump up to a higher tier of their offerings.

 

[TiGeo]

I have on pretty good authority that even in the 3.5EB (well over a BILLION miles and hundreds of thousands of hours of idling) that even the "pedestrian " HPL PCMO does not result in stuck rings or timing chain/phaser/tensioner issues with 5k FCI so I feel safe trying my own machine on it. If for some odd reason my E30 tune (usually about 16 gallons of pump E85 per tank) and driving habits show I could use a little "extra", I'll simply bump up to a higher tier of their offerings.

HPL PCMO is far and away higher quality than anything you get off the shelf....it's boutique for sure.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

HPL PCMO is far and away higher quality than anything you get off the shelf....it's boutique for sure.

Agree on some points... but considering it can be on my doorstep in the same amount of time as SuperTech from Walmart, it's certainly not as "boutique" as some other oils. To me, the higher quality and longer OCIs more than offset the reasonably more expensive product, especially in the long run.

 

[jonlandrum]

Lots of videos from master techs discussing this.

Here's a couple.

"This is not an engine that is out of a Chevy" lol shots fired

 

[billt460]

Looser fitting piston rings? No.

Low tension piston rings? Yes.

There is a difference.

Perhaps, if you want to get technical with terminology. But the end result is the same. The engineers want a free rotating engine for greater fuel economy.

And having rings that do not seal properly, and allow for excessive oil consumption, (Toyota), and a preposterous amount of fuel dilution, (Honda), is the direct result. And neither one lends itself very well to 10,000 mile oil changes. And both engines are as "modern" as modern can be.

 

[jetman]

Lots of videos from master techs discussing this.

Here's a couple.

Maybe they don't make them now like they use to? Or maybe they're saying that they are changing their oil when they aren't?

I've never changed the oil in my 07 Toyota in less than 10k miles. I've gone as long as 18k miles. It's been my daily driver for almost 14 yrs.

I'm talking about my 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser with "premium recommended" gasoline 4.0L V6 1GR-FE w/DOHC and VVTi. Holds 6.5 qts. It has seen nothing but regular unleaded. Engine has 223k miles. It's never burned or leaked oil. It's never thrown a code or been in a shop. I've posted its 13 UOA report results here on BITOG.

Owner's manual says to change it every 5k? NOT

 

[camrydriver111]

Its likely a piston design flaw - the oil return holes are too small or there is not enough of them.

A lot of Toyota engines are not even DI or have a combination of port and DI, so its not a dilution issue from DI. If it was, other manufacturers would also have even more problems.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

"This is not an engine that is out of a Chevy" lol shots fired

There’s DIY Dave on YouTube with a 1ZZ-FE I think it is a 2000 or 2001 Corolla…

… just yesterday, I offered to get him a quart of HPL EC.

I don’t think DIY Dave knows about here…

He has been piston soaking his engine for months……………

 

[John105]

I put 10,000 mile oil changes in the same category as brushing your teeth 3 times a week, or flushing the toilet after every other use. All 3 can be done, but you're not saving anywhere near what you think.

What is interesting is the 60k oil change. I've spoken with someone who owns their $150k+ Peterbilts and the crankcase I was told is 45 quarts. They change the oil at around 55k. If we run our finances like a business, why not our vehicles? They don't do their maintenance based on emotion, it's based on dollars and sense. I think owning is even more skin in the game.

Background: I don't go 10k but even my BMW has 2 yr/15k programmed in the computer.

p.s. my benchmark has always been $22/5 qt, when in reality I was always getting a $10 or $12 rebate. How much money is wasted by using 5 qts 2X as often as necessary? But those are deflated numbers. Imagine now if the crankcase is 45 quarts and the changes are too frequent.

p.p.s. how about with vaccines? Too frequent and too often and too old, adds up to very small efficacy. Imagine using the more is best mentality there.

 

[billt460]

What is interesting is the 60k oil change. I've spoken with someone who owns their $150k+ Peterbilts and the crankcase I was told is 45 quarts. They change the oil at around 55k. If we run our finances like a business, why not our vehicles? They don't do their maintenance based on emotion, it's based on dollars and sense. I think owning is even more skin in the game.

Background: I don't go 10k but even my BMW has 2 yr/15k programmed in the computer.

p.s. my benchmark has always been $22/5 qt, when in reality I was always getting a $10 or $12 rebate. How much money is wasted by using 5 qts 2X as often as necessary? But those are deflated numbers. Imagine now if the crankcase is 45 quarts and the changes are too frequent.

p.p.s. how about with vaccines? Too frequent and too often and too old, adds up to very small efficacy. Imagine using the more is best mentality there.

That's all fine and well. But you can't compare a 45 quart Diesel semi, with oil filters the size of fire extinguishers, to a 5 quart passenger rig with a "Mini Filter" the size of a baby food jar. Apples and Watermelons.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

What is interesting is the 60k oil change. I've spoken with someone who owns their $150k+ Peterbilts and the crankcase I was told is 45 quarts. They change the oil at around 55k. If we run our finances like a business, why not our vehicles? They don't do their maintenance based on emotion, it's based on dollars and sense. I think owning is even more skin in the game.

Background: I don't go 10k but even my BMW has 2 yr/15k programmed in the computer.

p.s. my benchmark has always been $22/5 qt, when in reality I was always getting a $10 or $12 rebate. How much money is wasted by using 5 qts 2X as often as necessary? But those are deflated numbers. Imagine now if the crankcase is 45 quarts and the changes are too frequent.

p.p.s. how about with vaccines? Too frequent and too often and too old, adds up to very small efficacy. Imagine using the more is best mentality there.

That's all fine and well. But you can't compare a 45 quart Diesel semi, with oil filters the size of fire extinguishers, to a 5 quart passenger rig with a "Mini Filter" the size of a baby food jar. Apples and Watermelons.

Lots of cars have 9, 10, maybe 12 quart sumps.. this is often lost on a lot of people.

You could perhaps make the case of oil and oil changes vs engines but some cars, maybe you have more incentive to go longer. Take a car with a big sump to a place to change it that advertises specials…. You won’t get it.. just two cents here.

I put a Fumoto valve on the bottom of mine because it makes access to the oil easier but that’s neither here nor there. Monitor dipstick for level and if there are fine metal particles in it that are not supposed to be there. There shouldn’t be… on ANY engine. As cost goes up, it becomes harder and harder to justify frequent oil changes.

 

[KrisZ]

Lots of cars have 9, 10, maybe 12 quart sumps.. this is often lost on a lot of people.

You could perhaps make the case of oil and oil changes vs engines but some cars, maybe you have more incentive to go longer. Take a car with a big sump to a place to change it that advertises specials…. You won’t get it.. just two cents here.

I put a Fumoto valve on the bottom of mine because it makes access to the oil easier but that’s neither here nor there. Monitor dipstick for level and if there are fine metal particles in it that are not supposed to be there. There shouldn’t be… on ANY engine. As cost goes up, it becomes harder and harder to justify frequent oil changes.

It’s not just sump size but also duty cycle. Big rigs are not short tripped. A passenger car is likely to be short tripped and that big 10qt sump takes a lot longer to get up to the temp than a 5qt one.

You simply cannot compare heavy duty equipment to passenger vehicles. It’s not even in the same galaxy.

 

[grampi]

My turbo gets changed every 5K, my Corolla and motorcycle get changed based on time, because both hit the year mark before hitting the mileage. Oddly, my bike has the longest recommended OCI of the three...

 

[4WD]

For many situations, I am inclined to agree that it does sacrifice a bit of deposit control and safety margin. But there are some "overadditized" oils on the market today where 10K can be a very comfortable interval.

Yeah - fuel dilution is what limits the better lubes IMO …

 

[loneryder]

Oh yeah I do that, although sometimes I do it at 8 or 9k. Sump holds 8.5 quarts of oil on my 2008 Mercedes E350 and the original Mercedes recommendation was 13k but then they lowered it 10k. Just Mobil 1 0w40 or Castrol 0w40 in it or whatever meets MB 229.5. Pretty much the standard oil change interval for Mercedes is 10k across their entire line. They do spec synthetic oil though.

And 229.5 spec.