So you're saying Honda didn't do any changes to this engine (or these engines) within almost 20 years?
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Who's right? (or closer to right): Oil specification for my old Fiat Abarth, 5w40 or my new Honda SI, 0w20?
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So you're saying Honda didn't do any changes to this engine (or these engines) within almost 20 years?
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Its the classic apples and oranges comparison. Yeah both are fruits, but.........
I look at it this way, and is strictly my opinion. Manufacturers are driven to design cars/engines by many factors. One biggie, nowadays, is fuel economy. When you extrapolate what just .5 MPG times a half million cars can net a company for meeting standards, it becomes apparent. Now, do they do this without taking into consideration the vast difference between the 2 oils mentioned and that one should give better MPG while the other should protect better? Probably not. I'm willing to bet that brand loyalty means a lot more to them than just "making it through warranty". Where do you think most of these folks would go back to if that were the case? So, do I think manufacturers have made design changes to accommodate the thinner, more efficient oils? Probably. Have lube engineers made design changes to thinner more efficient oils to protect better and last longer? Probably. Am I going to use the thinner oils in my newer cars? Probably not. But I'm old school, hard headed and change my oil every 3 months or 3K miles
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FWIW, my new Tiguan gets the 508 (Mostly. It's a blend) during warranty. Afterwards, maybe a nice 504. I mean, it IS a 2.0T VW engine after all, aren't they all the same?
I look at it this way, and is strictly my opinion. Manufacturers are driven to design cars/engines by many factors. One biggie, nowadays, is fuel economy. When you extrapolate what just .5 MPG times a half million cars can net a company for meeting standards, it becomes apparent. Now, do they do this without taking into consideration the vast difference between the 2 oils mentioned and that one should give better MPG while the other should protect better? Probably not. I'm willing to bet that brand loyalty means a lot more to them than just "making it through warranty". Where do you think most of these folks would go back to if that were the case? So, do I think manufacturers have made design changes to accommodate the thinner, more efficient oils? Probably. Have lube engineers made design changes to thinner more efficient oils to protect better and last longer? Probably. Am I going to use the thinner oils in my newer cars? Probably not. But I'm old school, hard headed and change my oil every 3 months or 3K miles
.FWIW, my new Tiguan gets the 508 (Mostly. It's a blend) during warranty. Afterwards, maybe a nice 504. I mean, it IS a 2.0T VW engine after all, aren't they all the same?
I don't know how Honda made it to be the largest engine maker in the world with a solid reputation for quality and durability with the goal of making it out of warranty. Those bastids.
Why appreciate answers that don't help you at all? That contribution is simply misleading.
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they surely did, but the single change most relevant to oil viscosity would be the bearing clearances. now, i don't have a service manual for the odyssey for each of those 3 years on hand, but rockauto is a great way to do some detective work. let's go have a look at the connecting rod bearings for a 2017 odyssey (the newest year they have them in the catalogue for), standard size, and see what years that part is cross-compatible with. lo and behold, 1999-2017, same part. this strongly suggests they made no change to the oil clearance in the bearings on the j35 despite suggesting progressively thinner oils, and that in turn suggests that the engine will not last as long with a thinner oil.
Pretty sure the abarth has flat tappets, does the honda have roller followers?
Fiat went to thinner oil on it's diesels when they went from flat tappets to cam rollers. (5w-40 A3/B4 to 5w-30 C2, so a 20% drop in viscosity). That said later years of the multiair went with 5w-30, not sure if it's C3 or C2 though.
Bearing clearances? Based on? Is this from . . . . wait . . . . guessing?
A manufacturer actually would alter bearing diameter, bearing width
(if space even allows for wider bearings) and oil pressure (oil pump),
also more advanced surface coatings like DLC on some bearings. In
fact current bearing clearances are virtually still the same for decades.
Yes, it's possible Honda retained some or even many parts. These parts
may just have been oversized before and Honda may have found them
to be working still flawlessly even with more power and using thinner oils.
No, that doesn't suggest engines won't last less long. Millions of engines are
running fine on 20W oils.
Honestly, I'm sceptical on this trend towards even thinner oils too, however
there is no reason to panic. Look for UOAs of 20W oils, the vast majority of
them is no less than excellent.
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i'm not guessing anything, i've researched the relationship between oil viscosity and bearing clearance extensively. any bearing manufacturer will tell you that a wider clearance means you need a thicker oil, whereas for a thinner oil you want a tighter clearance. check out this pdf from mahle, for example. an excerpt:
Lighter weight oils have less resistance to flow; consequently, their use will result in greater oil flow and possibly less oil pressure, especially at larger clearances. All oils thin out as they heat up; multigrade oils, however, don’t thin out as rapidly as straight grades. Original Equipment clearance specifications are necessarily tight due to the use of energy conserving lightweight oils, relatively high operating temperatures, and a concern for control of noise and vibration, especially in aluminum blocks. High Performance engines on the other hand, typically employ greater bearing clearances for a number of reasons. Their higher operating speeds result in considerably higher oil temperatures and an accompanying loss in oil viscosity due to fluid film friction that increases with shaft speed. Increased clearance provides less sensitivity to shaft, block, and connecting rod deflections and the resulting misalignments that result from the higher levels of loading in these engines. Use of synthetic oils with their better flow properties can help to reduce fluid film friction.
back to the j35, they obviously haven't changed the bearing diameter or width, nor added any coatings, if the part used is the same since 1999. as for the oil pump, it does appear they changed that in 2008, and i would agree that's almost certainly in order to produce adequate oil pressure with a thinner oil.
i'm not panicking, nor do i get the impression any others with a distaste for these thin oils are. we simply see that the nature of a thinner oil is to provide less effective lubrication than thicker oils, and consider the mpg/durability tradeoff to be an unacceptable compromise. there is a reason any bearing manufacturer will suggest a thicker oil for a performance/high load application. when it comes to uoas, the vast majority of those are also coming from people who don't drive their car with a "lead foot", and i have to wonder how many are from engines that have been running that sae20 oil for 200k+ miles. "running fine" does not equate to "protected to the utmost in extreme conditions", and personally i like to aim for the latter when maintaining any engine i have control over. listening to a friend's 200k mile k20 engine clatter away on its factory-spec 5w20 pains me immensely, and as soon as i put some 0w30 in there it quieted down quite nicely. this is a pattern i observe consistently on any high-mileage engine that was spec'd for an sae20 oil.
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Just use 0w20 in your Honda.
Many people freak out when a manufacturer recommends 0w20, but there is no need to freak out. Only people in forums that actually know absolutely nothing about how oil viscosity really works in an engine complain and whine about manufacturers recommending thin oils.
Japanese car manufacturers (in America, Japan, and many other parts of the world) have been recommending 0w20 and 5w20 in their cars for about 20 years now. And, after 20 years of 5w20 and 0w20 being used in millions of Japanese cars all around the world, and these engines that ran on 5w20 and 0w20 are actually lasting a really really long time. Usually longer than engines that run on 5w30,40,50etc... It's a fact. Toyota also has been using 0w16 in Japan for almost 10 years (I believe it's about 10 years, not too sure though) way before we in the US started seeing 0w16, and they had zero issues. People overthink too much when it comes to oil viscosities. Just use what your manufacturer recommends, and you will be fine like all the other regular people that don't overthink and just use what's recommended.
So you hear all these random people on forums whining about: "0w20 is a scam, it's only for fuel economy, and my engine that uses 0w20 will stop working sooner because 0w20 is too thin".
0w20 does help with fuel economy, because it goes into bearings quicker, and also exits the bearing quicker. It's less drag, and less drag is always better, but thin oils also most importantly helps with providing better wear protection than thicker oils.
Using 0w20 on engines that recommend 5w20 and/or 5w30 is actually beneficial to a motor. 20 and 30 is interchangable. 30 and 40 is interchangable. Just don't go from a 50 weight to a 20 weight. That's too big of a jump. Anyhow, fast and high volume of oil flow is what determines how well an engine will be protected, NOT higher oil pressure. All modern passenger car engines have very tight clearances, not just the engines that use 0w20. Using thinner oils will give you lower oil pressure, but higher and faster oil flow in all RPM ranges. Using thicker oil will get you higher oil pressure, but the only reason why thicker oils give you higher oil pressure is because the oil is not flowing as fast as a thinner oil.
For example, just think about your crankshaft main bearings. The journal bearings are very very tight. It's tight on all engines, no matter what the "recommend" viscosity is from the factory. 0w20 is better than 30 or 40.
If you use a thin oil such as 0w20, the oil will flow into the bearing and form an oil film. The crankshaft is spinning very fast, and that aids in helping the oil form a good barrier all around and between the bearings. Spinning parts naturally draw oil in and form a film around itself in between what it's spinning on. Faster and higher volume of oil flow is critical, and 0w20 is the best for providing fast and high volume flow in cold and hot temperatures.
Use good quality 0w20 in your Honda like Mobil 1, Pennzoil, and Amsoil, and your engine will be good to go. Contrary to popular belief 0w20 won't make your engine wear faster. Contrary to popular belief, 0w20 will give you the best wear protection.
it's clear you have no clue what you're talking about. let's have a look at the owner's manual for a jdm 2022 civic. since i assume you can't read japanese, the oil chart is on page 442 of the pdf, 441 as marked on the pages. and what do we see? oh look at that, 5w30 is a recommended viscosity.
tell us again how 0w20 is the end-all and be-all of engine oils, when the us is the only place it's exclusively specified, due to the fuel economy regulations you and so many others seem to be foaming at the mouth to totally discount.
on a related note, observe that the specified api standard, for a 2022 model year vehicle, is api sm... this is because api sn and onwards limit the maximum zddp content of the oil, which in turn reduces wear protection. it's almost like honda does care about the durability of their engines, and the regulatory environment is what dictates what they put in their owner's manuals!
and incidentally, should anyone wish to peruse the literature for jdm honda vehicles, here's the landing page. it took me a bit to find it as i don't understand japanese, so i thought i'd save anyone reading the trouble.
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Not true. 0w20 is becoming the preferred grade in many countries around the globe. It does the job and engines are lasting longer than they ever have.
please show me an owner's manual oil chart from any non-us country that exclusively specifies 0w20. otherwise i'm led to believe that it's the claims that 0w20 is the best thing ever that are not true. and the severe clattering any 200k+ mile engine running 5w20 or 0w20 oil produces very much reinforces my view that such thin oils are not the correct choice if you want an engine to last. as i said, fill the crankcase on such a motor with 0w30, and you'll find it runs much more smoothly and quietly.
There is that API SM grade again, SN came out in 2010.
yes, and as you seem to fail to comprehend, sn limits the maximum content of a crucial anti-wear additive. that is why oems specify api sm, they would like to see an adequate amount of zddp in the oil and an oil strictly adhering to api sn will not have adequate zddp. if you do not believe me that this is the 2022 civic owner's manual, follow the links for yourself. that is why i included them rather than just the screenshot.
Here is the bearing clearance for a Skyactiv 2.0 engine. Post #5
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=751350
You see, pretty tight. Heat is the big thing. And oil jets cool the pistons, 13 to 1 compression.
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Just for reference. Here are the oil recommendations for the same 2014 Mazda 3 sold in 3 different areas. You can't possibly believe CAFE doesn't come into play. USA, Canada and Puerto Rico:
The rest of the Americas:
Australia and New Zealand:
The rest of the Americas:
Australia and New Zealand:
clearly, i should have said "any country other than the us and canada". canada's regulatory environment is more or less 100% aligned with the us environment, as evidenced in tcp71's post above yours. you may be technically correct (the best kind of correct, as they say) but you're also intentionally missing the point.
as we all know, bearing manufacturers love to lie to their customers who are building high-performance engines! perhaps you should read the ample literature i have linked, especially the pdf from mahle regarding how to select bearing clearance, instead of making a 3-character response indicating arbitrary and unsubstantiated dissent.
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