It was easier to type than You have no idea what you are talking about.
Who's right? (or closer to right): Oil specification for my old Fiat Abarth, 5w40 or my new Honda SI, 0w20?
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it's also much easier to express unsubstantiated dissent, rather than refute claims taken directly from a bearing manufacturer's official literature. if i have no idea what i'm talking about, then apparently mahle doesn't either. personally, i'm inclined to trust them over you. if you somehow missed the pdf i'm referring to, here it is again.
and really, why should anyone take you seriously if your primary justification for expressing a view is "it was easier"?
I don't mind these thick vs. thin oil threads, it keeps us on our toes haha.
I'll say what I've been saying for a while now, we see 200K+ engines that have ran 20 grades exclusively. If that isn't a testament to the viability of 20 grade oils I don't know what is.
I'll say what I've been saying for a while now, we see 200K+ engines that have ran 20 grades exclusively. If that isn't a testament to the viability of 20 grade oils I don't know what is.
tell me, how quiet and smooth is the operation of those engines? do you hear any clatter or harshness? and have you tried putting a 0w30 in there, and comparing how they run? the fact that they made it to 200k shows that the sae20 oil is lubricating them, yes, however the harshness with which they run at that mileage demonstrates the accelerated wear they have experienced relative to a thicker oil, and that the sae20 is inadequate to lubricate them with the wider clearances that have developed due to that wear. every single such motor i have put 0w30 into has responded positively, and it drives me nuts when, despite that, people go get their oil changed at a shop and of course the shop just puts in whatever crap bulk 5w20 they have.
If you look at online Honda parts catalogues, you will see that the bearing part numbers are actually different for the range of years you mentioned. I looked up Odyssey 3.5L 1999, 2008 and 2018 and they all had different part numbers.
Torontohondaparts.com
I run 0w20 in my SkyActiv 2.5 and it is smooth and quiet. Most times I cannot hear it.
You seem to be a never ending argumentative type so I will stop here.
Better than TV.For the VAST majority of people, myself included, 200K is a good run. If down the line, say around 100-150K miles I want to bump up to a 30 grade I can!
Also, noise and harshness are not a good measure of wear. Both of our cars that I run 0w20 in are very smooth. Our previous VW 1.8 TSI spec'd 502.00 oil so I ran 0w40 in it. It was no more smooth or harsh than our current 1.4 TSI that runs 0w20. Both are smooth, torquey engines.
Should I spoil it and tell you about the 300K+ Jetta over on Vortex that has been running 508.00 0w20 oil since new?
Here is a link to some high mileage VW Jettas equipped with the 0w20 spec'd 1.4. https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for...Banner=false&sortBy=mileageDESC&numRecords=25
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there also appear to be 5 different colour codes to achieve the same clearance with slightly differing journal dimensions, which after some research appears to be a common thing for honda. the fact that the aftermarket specifies one bearing for the entire year range, assuming the crank is machined to the "standard" of those journal dimensions, is what i was getting at. the design of the engine's bottom end clearly did not change substantially over those years, even if honda's manufacturing decisions are a bit quirky.
how many miles are on that motor? and yes, that's very observant of you. i would note that you've made a point of voicing a viewpoint contrary to nearly every opinion i've expressed, presumably because you find it entertaining rather than in good faith.
if the engine is made of materials that could last 300k, 400k, or 500k with an appropriate oil and good maintenance, is it a good run? and why would you want to increase the oil viscosity only after undue wear has occurred?
i don't know where you get the idea that nvh of the same motor at low vs. high mileage isn't a good indicator of wear, it is in fact an excellent way to tell the condition of an engine. if you can hear the lifters rattling even at hot idle, piston slap, etc., that engine is a lot more worn out than one where all you hear is a smooth purr. of course, given the general atmosphere around here, i wouldn't be surprised to see you claim that it means nothing and mechanics with decades of experience are just totally wrong.
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What gregk24 is saying basically sums up all these "thick vs thin" discussions that people have been having for decades and decades.
People act like using 0w20 on an engine that can run great on 0w20 will destroy the motor.
Guys, calm down and just use 0w20 if that's what your manual says to use. You can use thicker oils if you want, but there is no benefit to doing that. Thinner oils transfer heat better and have higher volume of flow at all RPMs. 0w20 is great, because of the reasons I stated at page 2. Flow=Protection.
It ain't worth losing sleep over this.
My fathers GM 6.0 started piston slapping early in his ownership and had horrible lifter tick from around 120K to 220K when he sold it. It ran 5w30 or 10w30 it's whole life. I guess based on the horrible sounds it made and the rough idle that 5w30 didn't do it's job. It also consumed oil, if that is worth noting. That truck was sold to a landscaping company and will likely run another 100K. He purchased a 2014 F-150 with 100K miles that runs on **gasp** 20 grade oil and it runs like a Swiss watch.
Another example is Honda's 2.4. Earlier generations of that engine (some ran 5w20 and other 5w30 in some Acura models) had loud piston slap upon cold start up. It would appear oil grade had little effect on when this started to happen. I do know however, that they will run for 250K+ miles slapping all the way. Point being, noise is not always the best indicator.
If we saw modern (last 20 years) engines running 20 grade oil clapped out on the side of the road, rod knocking, or burning oil at an ungodly rate I might reconsider my thought on 20 grade oils. But, the fact remains that that is just not the case.
nobody is saying it will destroy the motor.
what we are saying, is that it will not protect the engine against wear as effectively as a thicker oil, and that the engine's lifespan will correspondingly be reduced. what we are also saying, is that manufacturers don't care whether the engine makes it to 200k or 300k, because both are beyond the warranty period and both will totally satisfy the average "buy new and trade in at 100-150k" buyer. they are much more concerned with fuel economy standards they are literally mandated to meet, than they are with what happens to the engine 100k miles after the end of the warranty period.
and as discussed, the manual says to use one's choice of oils, that choice including at the very least 0w30 and 5w30, in regions not affected by the us/canadian market fuel economy regulations. your claim that one should "just use 0w20" is not substantiated by owner's manuals from those regions.
that 6.0 would be a prime example of a good time to switch from a 30 to a 40 oil, in my opinion. and as we all know, some engines are more prone to developing wear issues than others, regardless of what oil is run in them.
the amc/jeep 4.0 also commonly has piston slap at cold startup. crucially, it goes away once the engine is warmed up, which is why i made a point of mentioning hot idle. in the case of the honda 2.4, i would suspect the piston slap at cold startup is due to the use of hypereutectic pistons which take some time to expand to their proper operating dimensions... 3rd gen saturn motors are the same way, and it's just a characteristic of the piston metallurgy. crucially, all of these motors sound very nice and smooth at hot idle when in good condition.
in fact, quite a number of these motors are known for bearing problems, oil consumption, and fuel dilution in the oil, it doesn't take much research to find that. indeed, even the L15 motor in the 2022 civic is known to have fuel dilution issues in some applications.
i note you elected to completely ignore a key question i asked in my prior response... if the engine is made of materials that could last 300k, 400k, or 500k with an appropriate oil and good maintenance, is [200k] a good run? and why would you want to increase the oil viscosity only after undue wear has occurred?
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OVERKILL
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Clearly, you've been here before. Curious as to who you were in the past?
Anyways, like Ford, Honda tested existing designs with thinner viscosities and found "acceptable" performance with most of them. Where things got dicey was when they went to thinner grades like 0w-16, 0w-12 and 0w-8. There was insufficient MOFT and so they had to move to wider bearings.
Now, that's not to say all engines designed in the 90's were fine to be spec'd a thinner oil down the line. Ford had a couple that weren't back-spec'd, based on their testing and I expect Honda experienced the same. This was likely due to insufficient MOFT in the bearings, but could also have been due to valvetrain components.
I say "acceptable" performance above because, as has been discussed extensively in the past on here (so I'm sure you've seen it), there are three different modes of lubrication:
- Hydrodynamic (parts don't touch, bearings operate in this realm)
- Boundary (parts are touching, AW additives are preventing significant wear from occurring)
- Mixed (parts are sometimes touching, additives prevent significant wear from occurring)
In the shift to thinner oils, in a paper by Honda (about even thinner oils like 0w-16, 0w-12 and 0w-8), it was noted that there would be an increase in components shifting from hydrodynamic to mixed. This of course increases wear, hence a move to improved additives that operate more effectively in the mixed and boundary realms to attempt to mitigate this. Why? Fuel economy. Even with that increase in friction, there was still a small gain in efficiency. While CAFE is a significant driver this side of the pond, the Japanese OEM's were WAY ahead of us, introducing much thinner grades of oil long before they were ratified by the SAE.
What was shown was that once you started getting HTHS (high temp/high shear) visc much below ~2.6cP; below the standard for an xw-20, you had to start looking at MOFT more closely, that's how the wider bearing requirement was discovered. On the other hand, as outlined above, it was determined that many engine designs that had spec'd heavier oils still had adequate MOFT with an xW-20, which is why that grade was so rapidly adopted. While bearing clearances for production engines has remained roughly the same since the 1950's, other dimensions like width, and special coatings have been more recently studied to allow the use of oils in grades below that threshold.
Now, about those owners manuals.
Due to CAFE, only the grade that was used to achieve the CAFE rating must be spec'd in the states. That's why you see only single grade recommendations while other markets will give a broad range. That doesn't mean there's going to be a marked difference in longevity between those grades. Additive chemistry, which has greatly improved in the last couple of decades, is a driving factor there. That said, all things equal, if more MOFT means reduction in boundary and mixed operation, you will have less wear, and that's going to depend on the engine family, design, and parts selection as well as coatings and design choices like roller vs sliding followers.
Of course there are other things that factor in as well. Somebody running a cheap group II "bargain" 5w-30 that's on the limit for volatility and chalk full of cheap polymer could very well result in more ring land deposits and, if using a cheaper additive package, more ring wear, than a high quality, low volatility 5w-20 or 0w-20 blended with better base stocks and a more robust and advanced additive package.
And noise is not much of an indicator unfortunately. Many of the early GM LSx engine piston slapped right off the dealer lot. The result of short skirts and bulk-fit pistons, yet they would run hundreds of thousands of miles. I've seen sludged up engines with wicked blowby that were whisper quiet, yet have given up significant performance over when they were new. Many engines are just noisy, the HEMI's valvetrain geometry makes it one of those. Some engines with sliding followers are supposed to have their lash adjusted but don't, not due to a problem with lubrication, but ignorance by the owner of the vehicle. It's best to avoid making gross generalizations about the condition of equipment based solely on what it sounds like, particularly if you have no knowledge of its maintenance history or operating life.
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There are plenty of engines out there that has 300k miles even after it has been using 5w20 and 0w20 it's whole life.
Oil analysis' aren't very accurate, but there is no universal proof that using 0w20 increases wear.
I have a 2010 Ford Taurus Sho with the 3.5 Ecoboost twin turbo V6. I've been using 0w20 and 5w20 for 12 years/100k miles in this engine since day one. 2010 3.5 Ecoboosts use 5w20 (according to Ford) and 2011+ 3.5 Ecoboosts use 5w30. The engine hasnt changed at all on the Taurus, but the oil viscosity recommendation has changed for whatever reason. Ford did not publicly mention anything as to why they changed the viscosity for 2011+ models but didn't do anything about 2010 models.
Anyhow, my engine is fine, I have done 2 oil analysis tests through Blackstone labs at 50k miles and 80k miles, and my engine did way better than the universal average for my engine when I used Royal Purple 0w20 for 5,200 miles. 0w20 doesn't increase wear even in my twin turbo engine that is notorious for having bad fuel dilution issues. The fuel dilution number was less than 2.0% when I did the test, which is pretty good for this engine. 20 weight is not a problem.
I also had to change the internal water pump at 88k mikes, which requires the 2 valve covers, front cover, and a lot of other things to come off. When the engine was opened up, I inspected the timing chain, camshafts, lifter buckets and etc... There was absolutely no wear on any potential contact points that the eyes can see. It looked absolutely brand new, and the timing chain had absolutely no stretch, so I decided not to replace the chain. The engine is going strong at 100k miles. 20 weight doesn't increase wear.
OVERKILL
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While there is a very small difference in heat transfer (remember, the difference in viscosity at operating temperature is minuscule), there is no difference in flow unless the pump is in the relief, which is seldom the case, and even then, the difference would be very little. Engines are lubricated with pumps that are positive displacement, and, if we want to get really technical, thinner oils induce more pump "slip" and may in fact reduce volume ever so slightly over a thicker lubricant (again, assuming the relief isn't operating).
Most of the heat absorbed by the oil is generated in the oil by the shearing action of the bearings. Bearings are self-pumping, drawing what they need from the pressure-fed galleries which give them a head of oil from which to draw from.
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as i stated in my introductory post, i've lurked here for years, i never made an account before though.
good to see someone around here actually has a clue!
i agree that additive package has a lot to do with it, however as i have also previously mentioned, api sn and up are severely lacking in that department as well. especially with flat tappet motors, there's a lot to be said for both thicker oils and high zddp content. and in general, if a motor is going to be driven hard, as one would expect from any turbo performance motor, having the extra "headroom" of a thicker oil is a good idea.
it definitely depends on the engine, however in my experience noise at hot idle is a great indicator of an engine's condition. good engines make all sorts of weird noises when cold/as they warm up, however if the motor is making those kinds of sounds after a nice spirited drive on new oil, at full operating temperature, it's nearly always a sign of a problem or at the very least excessive wear. i would also note that a lack of valvetrain adjustment, while easily remedied, is a problem that certainly needs attention. this is exactly why it's a great way to assess an engine whose history you know nothing about. i wouldn't make any "gross generalisations" but i would make a rough judgement about how much wear has occurred in the motor based on how it sounds at hot idle.
the rest of the subject matter in your post has been covered extensively by now, but i'd love to know where you get this idea.... i don't think safety-critical industries like aviation would be relying on them if they weren't accurate. i've spent more time than i have any good reason to poring over uoas, from my own engines as well as others', and they seem plenty accurate/useful to me.
OVERKILL
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Well, your post style sounds familiar, hence my comment.
ZDDP is only one component in anti-wear chemistry. There are numerous organic AW additives that won't show up in VOA's or UOA's that are used to improve performance in this department due to the limits imposed by the API on ZDDP. As I noted, the increase in viscosity, IF it reduces mixed and boundary, will reduce wear, but if it won't, then it doesn't. Then you are looking at oil chemistry, at which point the API standards are just the bare minimum. Euro spec's are significantly more stringent in this department as an example.
Some engines are just loud. HEMI's sound like a sewing machine at idle due to the aforementioned valvetrain geometry. Some engines with solid followers will make some odd noises. Engines with hydraulic roller setups tend to be the quietest, but then you also have engines with loud injectors. Now, if you've got something knocking, there's something else going on, but that's a very specific sound pertaining to a very specific issue.
A tight valvetrain (one that needs adjustment, seat erosion) may actually be quieter than when properly adjusted. That's why it can be dangerous to assume based on sound without a history and what that specific engine sounds like healthy. Specific noises are normal for certain engine families and the absence of those noises may actually be a problem.
Amusingly, my sister's 330i and my wife's 328i that we owned, bought with wickedly high mileage and had clearly been abused, sounded exactly the same at idle. But the condition of the two engines under the valve cover was anything but similar. I can share some pics if you'd like.
My old 302HO had a bit of a rough idle (aftermarket cam) and a pretty heavy sewing machine sound from the valvetrain due to the 1.7 roller rockers. But at over 200,000 miles, it had factory spec oil pressure, was spotless inside and had perfect compression and leakdown. Mods are another thing, particularly with certain engine families.
Just some stuff to think about.
What engines are known for bearing problems?
Are you implying that going from a 20 to a 30 grade oil will result in my engines lasting an additional 100k to 300K miles? 30 grade oils are barely thicker than 20 grade at operating temp.
If thicker truly is better, why don’t we all run 60 grade? Then our engines might last 1,000,000 miles!
I say all of this light heartedly. I don’t want to argue about this subject. The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding tastes pretty good these days.
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