which 5w-30?

[kschachn]

Look at HTHS of a 5w30 vs a 0w30 from the same brand and why 0w oils lost BMW LL01/LL04 spec. They're not as robust.

That’s not the reason here. Look up the approval HT/HS requirements for this brand and you’ll see your statement isn’t correct.

That’s why approvals are so important. That’s what dictates the HT/HS and it’s not a different requirement for a different winter rating.

 

[svenson]

It helps to remember that grade is a recommendation not a spec. Engines are designed to tolerate a minimum HT/HS without excessive wear, an oil with a higher one is acceptable and often desirable.

we are talking about a minimum hths that engines tolerate. but how high hths can tolerate? always within approvals or more?
example..mine is from 3.5 hths ,0-30 to 4.0 hths a 5-40 redline e.x
can i go higher out of the approvals? can the engine tolerate higher hths? i know i wont do it,i know it has disadvantages, more drug,more fuel consumption etc. but can the engine tolerate a so higher? just wondered

 

[kschachn]

we are talking about a minimum hths that engines tolerate. but how high hths can tolerate? always within approvals or more?
example..mine is from 3.5 hths ,0-30 to 4.0 hths a 5-40 redline e.x
can i go higher out of the approvals? can the engine tolerate higher hths? i know i wont do it,i know it has disadvantages, more drug,more fuel consumption etc. but can the engine tolerate a so higher? just wondered

Is there an upper limit for any SAE grade? There are 70-grade oils used in Australia and there aren't warnings on the labels that the high HT/HS could damage some engines.

As long as the winter rating is appropriate for the starting temperatures, how would any grade damage the engine?

 

[svenson]

Is there an upper limit for any SAE grade? There are 70-grade oils used in Australia and there aren't warnings on the labels that the high HT/HS could damage some engines.

As long as the winter rating is appropriate for the starting temperatures, how would any grade damage the engine?

there arent any warnings but there arent any suggestions either.so if i have a 40 grade limit from bmw ,i can still use a 70 grade? what hths is that? 6-7? just curious

 

[edyvw]

Look at HTHS of a 5w30 vs a 0w30 from the same brand and why 0w oils lost BMW LL01/LL04 spec. They're not as robust.

What?

 

[kschachn]

there arent any warnings but there arent any suggestions either.so if i have a 40 grade limit from bmw ,i can still use a 70 grade? what hths is that? 6-7? just curious

This is where a bit of physics understanding helps, and how oil films work in an engine.

 

[scrllock]

This sounds like the old BMW forum rumor, that rod bearings were failing because the S65 came with 10w60 which was "too thick" for the clearances.

 

[FlyingTexan]

What?

LL01 was 5w and going to 0w caused the loss of the spec, no?

 

[edyvw]

LL01 was 5w and going to 0w caused the loss of the spec, no?

2018 update of LL01/04 eliminated only 0W oils. All of them, whether they are 0W30 or 0W40. Only the oil that was kept was the in-house BMW TPT 0W40 M Performance (it was exceptional stuff, but it is no longer made).
In the 2022 update, with API SP formulations coming, which consisted of more GrIII base stocks, 0Ws were back, but they still had to meet very stringent oxidation requirements. That is why Mobil1 ESP 0W30 does not have LL04 approval bcs. ester content. Castrol Edge 0W30, for example, is back with LL01, so is Mobil1 0W40 FS.
They never eliminated 5W30. Staple of BMW TPT offer was 5W30 in both LL01 and LL04 and still is.
The issue was oxidation. BMW has very stringent oxidation requirements. Not "robustness." LL01 and LL04 have minimum HTHS of 3.5cP and starting point is ACEA A3 (LL01) or ACEA C3(LL04), like in other similar approvals: MB229.5/51/52, VW 504.00/507.00 etc.
MB229.5 (Full SAPS), or MB 229.51/52 (Low-SAPS) are generally more demanding than LL approvals. So if oil is not "robust" how it could keep MB229.5 for example?
BMW made big confusion with this exercise in 2018. Completely unnecessary.

 

[FlyingTexan]

2018 update of LL01/04 eliminated only 0W oils. All of them, whether they are 0W30 or 0W40. Only the oil that was kept was the in-house BMW TPT 0W40 M Performance (it was exceptional stuff, but it is no longer made).
In the 2022 update, with API SP formulations coming, which consisted of more GrIII base stocks, 0Ws were back, but they still had to meet very stringent oxidation requirements. That is why Mobil1 ESP 0W30 does not have LL04 approval bcs. ester content. Castrol Edge 0W30, for example, is back with LL01, so is Mobil1 0W40 FS.
They never eliminated 5W30. Staple of BMW TPT offer was 5W30 in both LL01 and LL04 and still is.
The issue was oxidation. BMW has very stringent oxidation requirements. Not "robustness." LL01 and LL04 have minimum HTHS of 3.5cP and starting point is ACEA A3 (LL01) or ACEA C3(LL04), like in other similar approvals: MB229.5/51/52, VW 504.00/507.00 etc.
MB229.5 (Full SAPS), or MB 229.51/52 (Low-SAPS) are generally more demanding than LL approvals. So if oil is not "robust" how it could keep MB229.5 for example?
BMW made big confusion with this exercise in 2018. Completely unnecessary.

I feel you just supported what I was saying. A 0w30 vs 5w30 and which camp do you fall into for which offers better protection in normal climates?

 

[kschachn]

I feel you just supported what I was saying. A 0w30 vs 5w30 and which camp do you fall into for which offers better protection in normal climates?

What influence does the winter rating have in terms of protection in that instance?

 

[edyvw]

I feel you just supported what I was saying. A 0w30 vs 5w30 and which camp do you fall into for which offers better protection in normal climates?

Definitely didn’t say that.
Bottom line, two things:
1. Oxidation (BMW has set oxidation, whether that is starting oxidation or not, it is what it is).
2. Group III % in base oils. Trying to make it friendly to gaskets. If you use BMW approved oils, your BMW engine won’t leak oil (no one said ever)!!!

Does NOT have anything with robustness.
As for 0W, their performance in Texas doesn’t have anything to do with cold cranking performance. If two oils have same base stocks, less spread between first and last number is better. Motul 300V 10W40 will be more shear stable than Motul 300V 0W40. But, that is high end racing oil. It is expensive.
In race to the bottom, regular off the shelf oils are different story. Castrol is best example.
To get desired performance out of Castrol Edge 0W30/40, Castrol utilizes PAO and different polymers etc. Their 5W30/40 line up us cheaper. It is Group III base stock. Nothing impressive. It is easier and cheaper to make 5W30 than 0W30. Even cheaper to make 10W30.
Now if you go HPL, yeah 5W30 Euro will be probably bit more shear stable with bit higher HTHS. That is bcs. HPL will use same quality base stocks in both. Castrol won’t.

 

[svenson]

ok, i wanted to find a sds of M1 esp 0-30 to check about esters.
the only one i could find is this old one from 2022 revision,i dont know if its still the same recipy.
https://seattleautomotive.com/files/SDS/MOBIL 1 ESP 0W-30_124547.pdf
where its states

at the end :
PHOSPHORODITHIOIC ACID, MIXED 0,0 BIS (1,3- 84605-29-8 0.1 - < 1% H303, H315, H318, H401, DIMETHYLBUTYL AND ISO-PR)ESTERS, ZINC SALTS. : 0.1- 1%
is just it? i dont see any esters mention anywhere else.
on the top 30-40% is GTL and 5-10% is poly,PAO
(1-DECENE, TETRAMER AND TRIMER HYDROGENATED 5 - < 10% )
i guess if this is not wrong that this is a more PAO-GTL product than more esters as mention many times.
so my question is why bmw didtn get that approval? 1% esters conten is allowed in the bmw equirements,
could it be the precentage of PAO? i dont know how much is allowed,since bmw requires more G3 base oil.

second that i found an old thread where edyvw claims that M1 5-30 is a bit better than 0-30..i thought that its was the other way around,
reading you last 2 months claiming this M1 0-30 is one of the best oils next to castrol 0-30,0-40

Thread 'Mobil 1 ESP 0w30'

Feb 4, 2022

Looks like this fine oil is now carried at my local Autozone for 32.99. Not bad for the 504 for the Atlas

• dbias
• Replies: 39
• Forum: European and Import Motor Oils

• 

so what is it then?

 

[Glenda W.]

ESP 0W-30 virgin oxidation of 32 as of 4/25 indicating a fair amount of esters. ESP 5W-30 and FS 0W-40 use to have the same proven GTL/PAO/Ester formula but has changed. HPL tested this old formula(original FS 0W-40) and claimed it was the best performing OTS oil they’ve tested. The new formula is somewhat unknown for the ESP 5W-30 and FS 0W-40.

 

[edyvw]

ok, i wanted to find a sds of M1 esp 0-30 to check about esters.
the only one i could find is this old one from 2022 revision,i dont know if its still the same recipy.
https://seattleautomotive.com/files/SDS/MOBIL 1 ESP 0W-30_124547.pdf
where its states
View attachment 291431
at the end :
PHOSPHORODITHIOIC ACID, MIXED 0,0 BIS (1,3- 84605-29-8 0.1 - < 1% H303, H315, H318, H401, DIMETHYLBUTYL AND ISO-PR)ESTERS, ZINC SALTS. : 0.1- 1%
is just it? i dont see any esters mention anywhere else.
on the top 30-40% is GTL and 5-10% is poly,PAO
(1-DECENE, TETRAMER AND TRIMER HYDROGENATED 5 - < 10% )
i guess if this is not wrong that this is a more PAO-GTL product than more esters as mention many times.
so my question is why bmw didtn get that approval? 1% esters conten is allowed in the bmw equirements,
could it be the precentage of PAO? i dont know how much is allowed,since bmw requires more G3 base oil.

second that i found an old thread where edyvw claims that M1 5-30 is a bit better than 0-30..i thought that its was the other way around,
reading you last 2 months claiming this M1 0-30 is one of the best oils next to castrol 0-30,0-40

Thread 'Mobil 1 ESP 0w30'

Feb 4, 2022

Looks like this fine oil is now carried at my local Autozone for 32.99. Not bad for the 504 for the Atlas

• dbias
• Replies: 39
• Forum: European and Import Motor Oils

• 

View attachment 291432

so what is it then?

Blenders must put in MSDS only compounds that are harmful to a first responders. You don’t get full picture by looking at MSDS.

 

[svenson]

Blenders must put in MSDS only compounds that are harmful to a first responders. You don’t get full picture by looking at MSDS.

that was my thought,aggreed.

 

[tired]

ok, i wanted to find a sds of M1 esp 0-30 to check about esters.
the only one i could find is this old one from 2022 revision,i dont know if its still the same recipy.
https://seattleautomotive.com/files/SDS/MOBIL 1 ESP 0W-30_124547.pdf
where its states
View attachment 291431
at the end :
PHOSPHORODITHIOIC ACID, MIXED 0,0 BIS (1,3- 84605-29-8 0.1 - < 1% H303, H315, H318, H401, DIMETHYLBUTYL AND ISO-PR)ESTERS, ZINC SALTS. : 0.1- 1%
is just it? i dont see any esters mention anywhere else.
on the top 30-40% is GTL and 5-10% is poly,PAO
(1-DECENE, TETRAMER AND TRIMER HYDROGENATED 5 - < 10% )
i guess if this is not wrong that this is a more PAO-GTL product than more esters as mention many times.
so my question is why bmw didtn get that approval? 1% esters conten is allowed in the bmw equirements,
could it be the precentage of PAO? i dont know how much is allowed,since bmw requires more G3 base oil.

second that i found an old thread where edyvw claims that M1 5-30 is a bit better than 0-30..i thought that its was the other way around,
reading you last 2 months claiming this M1 0-30 is one of the best oils next to castrol 0-30,0-40

Thread 'Mobil 1 ESP 0w30'

Feb 4, 2022

Looks like this fine oil is now carried at my local Autozone for 32.99. Not bad for the 504 for the Atlas

• dbias
• Replies: 39
• Forum: European and Import Motor Oils

• 

View attachment 291432

so what is it then?

@edyvw can probably respond better than me, but 2022 when he wrote that, M1 probably was still using the same base oil in the 0W and 5W varieties. Before the formula change.

 

[edyvw]

@edyvw can probably respond better than me, but 2022 when he wrote that, M1 probably was still using the same base oil in the 0W and 5W varieties. Before the formula change.

Yes. 5W30 until recently had same composition. I think change happened last year for the US market.