which 5w-30?

[OilUzer]

The oil companies tweak stuff (i.e. base oil, additives, etc.) and that information may not be readily available or it's hard and/or waste of time to keep track of.

For an average consumer (99.99% of us including me), the best thing is to pay attention to the specifications and approvals. 80% of the average consumer may also think oil is oil but that's another story.

Having said that, sounds like ESP 0W-30 might be a "better" oil than ESP 5W-30 ... you know 0 is always better than 5 at the base level logic.

The question I have is why does the ESP 5W-30 have BMW LL-04 approval (Refer to @BMWTurboDzl post above) and the more "superior" ESP 0W-30 doesn't?

Is it marketing stuff or didn't want to pay for the approval or a typo or BMW lists the 5W (and not the 0W) for certain cars which require LL-04 or people who buy the 0W-30 live in Alaska and don't drive a BMW?

Anyways, just curious. I am sure @edyvw may have explained this a few times already but I don't recall. Thank you!

 

[edyvw]

Lower oxidation. BMW has more stringent oxidation requirements and some requirements around Group III in oil. 0W30 has good chunk of esters (higher base oxidation) and less Group III.

 

[OilUzer]

Lower oxidation. BMW has more stringent oxidation requirements and some requirements around Group III in oil. 0W30 has good chunk of esters (higher base oxidation) and less Group III.

Intetesting. So from the BMW perspective, when it comes to LL-04, the ESP 0W-30 does not meet the approval. Meaning 5W-30 is superior in that regard.

Is it because their LL-04 spec is outdated and needs to be tweaked to allow a more superior oil to pass or is the 5W really better when it comes to LL-04?

Another question and let's forget about the BMW for now. I've seen outdated specs in my field that no one wants to mess with ... If you owned a BMW which required LL-04, would you pick the 0W-30 over 5W-30?

I consider myself part of the 99.99% (refer to my previous post) so I'll have to go with the 5W but I have a feeling you fall under the 0.01% with more data and I'm curious what will you pick?

 

[Patman]

Lower oxidation. BMW has more stringent oxidation requirements and some requirements around Group III in oil. 0W30 has good chunk of esters (higher base oxidation) and less Group III.

But what about the fact that the much older formula (when it was labeled ESP Formula 5w-30) had the BMW LL04 approval and it had more esters in the base oil.

 

[edyvw]

But what about the fact that the much older formula (when it was labeled ESP Formula 5w-30) had the BMW LL04 approval and it had more esters in the base oil.

They updated approvals in 2018 when they dropped all 0W oils in LL01/04 and then they did another update in 2022 when they allowed 0W for both approvals, but oxidation requirements shoot up. They were already stringent, but this eliminated a lot of oils.

 

[kschachn]

Another question and let's forget about the BMW for now. I've seen outdated specs in my field that no one wants to mess with ... If you owned a BMW which required LL-04, would you pick the 0W-30 over 5W-30?

I wouldn’t care at all. The 0W-30 has VW 504 00 approval which would be more then good enough for me.

 

[edyvw]

Intetesting. So from the BMW perspective, when it comes to LL-04, the ESP 0W-30 does not meet the approval. Meaning 5W-30 is superior in that regard.

Is it because their LL-04 spec is outdated and needs to be tweaked to allow a more superior oil to pass or is the 5W really better when it comes to LL-04?

Another question and let's forget about the BMW for now. I've seen outdated specs in my field that no one wants to mess with ... If you owned a BMW which required LL-04, would you pick the 0W-30 over 5W-30?

I consider myself part of the 99.99% (refer to my previous post) so I'll have to go with the 5W but I have a feeling you fall under the 0.01% with more data and I'm curious what will you pick?

All BMW approvals were updated in 2022. So, they are all current.
5W30 has lower oxidation. If you do 18,000mls OCI, that might matter.
Both LL01 and LL04 could be used in gas engines. If I were to put in my BMW, I would choose first 0W30.

 

[svenson]

Lower oxidation. BMW has more stringent oxidation requirements and some requirements around Group III in oil. 0W30 has good chunk of esters (higher base oxidation) and less Group III.

All BMW approvals were updated in 2022. So, they are all current.
5W30 has lower oxidation. If you do 18,000mls OCI, that might matter.
Both LL01 and LL04 could be used in gas engines. If I were to put in my BMW, I would choose first 0W30.

all the other approvals dont have longlife 18,000mls OCI? vw or mb? just curious
ok,i understand about oxidation limits bmw has, but why there are requirements around Group III in oil?
for seals and gaskets? i know esters/gtl dont cause any damage to them, so does it has tons of PAO to affect seal
compability? or is there an engine requirement?
i am trying to understand if bmw dont approve that oil bcs. thinks it will cause some kind of damage to any of its parts.

 

[Pao99]

Isn't higher % PAO better?

 

[edyvw]

all the other approvals dont have longlife 18,000mls OCI? vw or mb? just curious
ok,i understand about oxidation limits bmw has, but why there are requirements around Group III in oil?
for seals and gaskets? i know esters/gtl dont cause any damage to them, so does it has tons of PAO to affect seal
compability? or is there an engine requirement?
i am trying to understand if bmw dont approve that oil bcs. thinks it will cause some kind of damage to any of its parts.

Group III requirement is related to gaskets and oxidation stability. If you use BMW-approved oil, gaskets won't leak

Also, BMW has specific requirements around Vlavetronic. I am not sure of the exact requirements there, but I highly doubt that it is anything special and something that other approvals would not cover.
Yes, other approvals also require long-life performance. VW approvals are 18,000mls, so is MB.
Simply, they do have higher oxidation requirements than others. LL is nothing special. But in that category, it is most stringent.
I would never lose sleep using MB229.5/51/52 in a BMW engine if no BMW approval.

 

[edyvw]

Isn't higher % PAO better?

Yes, but it is just a part of the equation.
High PAO content does not guarantee a better final product.

 

[930.engineering]

Ravenol does not have any special additives. Ravenol buys additives from large additive companies like Lubrizol, Infineum (Mobil1) etc.
I really cannot remember who supplies Ravenol, but it is probably one of those two I mentioned.
Ravenol does have a higher % of PAO in its base stocks. But the final product is what matters.

That's what Ravenol used for RSP, REP, RUP, RCS etc. for years: Vanderbilt Vanlube W-324:

https://www.vanderbiltchemicals.com/markets/petroleum-engine-oil-additives-tungsten-compounds

https://www.vanderbiltchemicals.com...oleum-engine-oil-additives-tungsten-compounds

While W-324 comes from a large additive company it actually is somewhat "special" as I never found it somewhere else yet (except for Eurol Engine Oil Treat), in particular with PCMOs with approvals (BMW LL-01, LL-04, MB 229.5, 229.51/52, Porsche C40, VW 511 00).
Ravenol VMP seem to have a more common additive pack (Infineum?), perhaps to comply with VW 504 00. Just my guess.
.

 

[930.engineering]

1) However, I read that Mobil 1 has lost quality in the ESP line... is that true?

2) The new ESP 5W-30 has a poorer base oil. While the 5W-30 ESP Formula P version continues to have the old base oil, with PAO GTL ESTER, etc. Do you confirm?

3) I was thinking of starting to use Ravenol. The tests are all excellent. What's the difference between Ravenol VSW 0W-30 and VMP 5W-30?

4) In my car without a DPF, do you recommend continuing to use 0W-40? Or go back to 0/5W30?

5) I have another VAG, a completely original 2.0 TDI with DPF, AdBlue, etc. I live in an area where summer temperatures reach 40°C (104°F) and winter temperatures reach -5°C (23°F). Do you recommend 0W30 or 5W30?

1. If at all I think no reason to lose sleep. M1 ESP remains great (above else for the price).

2. Stay with the correct approvals or at least with the most reputable approvals.

3. Ravenol VSW 0W-30 it's the thinner brother of VMP 5W-30. I bet VSW has thinner base oils and ~twice the amount of VII compared to VMP. Since you live in Italy (min -5°C) you don't need 0W. You could even easily run some 10W.

4. I only see a minor relation between DPF and viscosity (due to dilution). HTHS of >3,5 mPas is more relevant.

5. Again, since you never see cold winters stay with 5W-30.

Some Ravenol offerrings (like VMP, REP, RUP etc.) provide reputable approvals along with exceptional numbers like high HTHS numbers (3.7 for REP/VMP 5W-30), low pourpoints (~-60°C) and low Noack losses (~6 %) to increased percentage of PAO (and AN).
The only downsides are price and availability in North America (Blauparts!). Since you're based in Italy the latter should be a non-issue.
I personally used VMP and especially REP 5W-30 for years and recently swapped to M1 ESP 5W-30 since Ravenol became even more pricey since pandemic, but I'm going to return back to REP. I already have two jugs sitting in my garage.
.

 

[Pao99]

I have no problem with Ravenol. Now I have to decide whether to take Ravenol or Mobil 1. There isn't much of a difference in price. What do I do? Also, how often do you recommend changing the oil? 10,000 or 15,000 km?

 

[930.engineering]

Now I have to decide whether to take Ravenol or Mobil 1. There isn't much of a difference in price. What do I do?

If there's no notable difference in price in Italy, then you seem you answered your own question. in America VMP is twice the price of ESP.

Also, how often do you recommend changing the oil? 10,000 or 15,000 km?

Don't worry. Anything VW 504 00/507 00, BMW LL-04, MB 229.52/52 is suited for 15,000 km especially since EU Diesel fuel is by law ultra-low sulphur. Granted, provide you don't run very short distances every day.
.

 

[kschachn]

I have no problem with Ravenol. Now I have to decide whether to take Ravenol or Mobil 1. There isn't much of a difference in price. What do I do? Also, how often do you recommend changing the oil? 10,000 or 15,000 km?

Buy something.

 

[svenson]

Group III requirement is related to gaskets and oxidation stability. If you use BMW-approved oil, gaskets won't leak

Also, BMW has specific requirements around Vlavetronic. I am not sure of the exact requirements there, but I highly doubt that it is anything special and something that other approvals would not cover.
Yes, other approvals also require long-life performance. VW approvals are 18,000mls, so is MB.
Simply, they do have higher oxidation requirements than others. LL is nothing special. But in that category, it is most stringent.
I would never lose sleep using MB229.5/51/52 in a BMW engine if no BMW approval.

ok,got it,thanks

 

[OilUzer]

I have no problem with Ravenol. Now I have to decide whether to take Ravenol or Mobil 1. There isn't much of a difference in price. What do I do? Also, how often do you recommend changing the oil? 10,000 or 15,000 km?

fwiw, a while back I was considering Ravenol 10W-30. iirc Noack = 3.3% with no vm. I like this oil.

Before that I was considering Amsoil SS 10W-30. Low Noack also 4.x%

I finally settled with M1 EP 10-30 because Ravenol and Amsoil were pricey for my application. Non of our 5 cars require any fancy ACEA or Euro approvals and just a basic API and/or ILSAC will do. And I do have a relatively very short OCIs.

However, I do chase approvals if the price is right.

In your case, if the prices (M1 v Ravenol) are the same, I would go with Ravenol. But then again, I like to see the approvals on the jug. So if the Ravenol you are selecting has no approvals, I would go with M1 ESP. You want me to pay for something fancy, show me the money. I mean show me the approvals.

 

[FlyingTexan]

0w40, 0w30 and 5w30 will work similar, but most times 0w is better oil.
M1 FS 0w40 is a very good oil, you can keep it, anyway Petronas 7000 0w40, Castrol 0w40 or Eni 0w40 too. Even you can use super M1 ESP X3/X4 mid-saps. Ravenol is good but if I won't paid overprice 20-30€ vs above oils, you won't see any difference in 7 lifes, for that go with Amsoil or RedLine.

0w is better oil than a 5w? How do you recon? Everything I've read is a 5w didn't need the sacrifices.

 

[ceecbtg]

0w is better oil than a 5w? How do you recon? Everything I've read is a 5w didn't need the sacrifices.

At the end all depend on your needs. I prefer oil with better base quality, cold-short runs performance + right warm protection and more stable properties over mileage, it's 0w range for me vs most 5w. You recon it checking chemical properties and performance over use.