When to use an oil additive.

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Trav
You keep ranting on about LM and Amsoil idle flushes. Why not talk about the one that is used more than any other in German garages and dealerships and BTW has approvals.
We have been using this for more than 12 years without issue.

Its difficult to get in the US but in Germany and England its very common as its made in Manchester UK.
Its certainly easier to get that bloody amsoil in Germany. Maybe you have no idea whats really being used in German garages.

Their fuel system clean is high in PEA also, it easily on par with BG 44K or Redline.

https://www.protecfuelsaver.com/engine-flush

I have watched you praise Lm as a fast pre OC flush but what about their premium sludge and engine cleaner? They say to drive the car.
Quote:
ÖL-SCHLAMMSPÜLUNG
Befreit den Motor von Schwarzschlamm.
Reinigt Ölsiebe und
Ölbohrungen. Vor jedem Ölwechsel
zu geben. 300 ml ausreichend
für max. 5 l Moto renöl.
100 – 300 km vor dem Ölwechsel dem Motorenöl beimischen


No proviso that it cannot be used in turbo applications. In fact it is recommended for turbo engine gas and diesel. It is also recommended the engines be driven wth this product in the oil.
Quote:
Für alle handelsüblichen Motorenöle in Benzin- und Dieselmotoren mit und ohne Dieselpartikelfilter (DPF) geeignet. Turbo- und Kat-getestet. Zugabe ca. 200 km vor dem Ölwechsel. Doseninhalt ist ausreichend für bis zu 5 l Motorenöl. Nicht geeignet für Motorräder mit Nasskupplung.
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You talk about this German products and that but you don't have a bloody clue.
Not even about the LM line.
I'm done, nuff said.
Happy New Year.


I only mention Amsoil idle flush as most of the forum members are in the US and can't get LM products or UK ones so easily.
I have only delt with Porsch, BMW and MERC in Germany, Austria and Switzerland and have nothing to do with VW, so they could be using a different product. I've never seen dealership documentation that lists the use of a flush as drive around product and they don't allow any flush additive at all under the initial warranty, just manual cleaning.
I avoid mentioning LM drive around flush as there is a legal case pending that might involve them and it has no approvals or recommendations as far as I am aware. It got blamed for a diesel turbo runaway and subsequent crash, although they still can't ID the flush manufacturer yet as they will need to get VOA's from all the companies.
Fuel system cleaners sometimes work, but I don't think of fuel or coolant additives as potential snake oils and this is the oil section.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Thanks Trav for that information. Too bad it is not sold for a decent price in the USA.

If Skyship is such a big LM fan I am very surprised he does not know about the LM engine cleaner that is used in a car driven for a while. And if Amsoil engine flush is not readily available in Germany but he talks about that being used instead of the product you talk about I wonder about that also.

Is the LM engine cleaner effective? Is it available in the USA?


I only mentioned Amsoil idle flush as an alternative that might be easier to find in the US, although you must have other major oil company products designed for use at idle. Lubro Moly is the name for Liqui Moly in the US although they are supposed to be changing names soon. Oddly enough they seem to be expensive in the US but cheap in Germany, although the commercial folks use Fuchs.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
avoid mentioning LM drive around flush as there is a legal case pending that might involve them

Yeah right. Proof? Link? I read German just fine so don't worry about it not being in English.
You have been proven wrong using your own favorite company to boot.
Now you say oh i didn't want to mention that product? Give me a break.

If it was true about LM being involved in some sort of law suit that involved runaway diesels one would think they certainly wouldn't continue to advise it being used in this way.
Maybe we are all brain dead here?

But okay post the link or the proof and lets see. If you cant you just lost any integrity you thought you had.

BTW Fuchs is a common external engine cleaner it is a Kaltreiniger.
Please post a link to their internal engine cleaners, i'm interested.

 

[Mystic]

I don't know what Kaltreiniger means but I do know the difference between an external engine cleaner and an internal engine cleaner. Skyship mentions the LM INTERNAL engine cleaning product and then says that commercial users use Fuchs. But the Fuchs is an EXTERNAL engine cleaner. Skyship there is a bit of difference there.

We are all waiting for the proof about the LM internal cleaner lawsuit Skyship. And Trav seems to know what idle engine flush is most commonly used in German garages and that flush is not LM or Amsoil.

So I for one am willing to declare Trav the winner in this discussion. And I am glad this discussion took place because I learned some useful new information. Thanks a lot Trav.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I don't know what Kaltreiniger means but I do know the difference between an external engine cleaner and an internal engine cleaner. Skyship mentions the LM INTERNAL engine cleaning product and then says that commercial users use Fuchs. But the Fuchs is an EXTERNAL engine cleaner. Skyship there is a bit of difference there.

We are all waiting for the proof about the LM internal cleaner lawsuit Skyship. And Trav seems to know what idle engine flush is most commonly used in German garages and that flush is not LM or Amsoil.

So I for one am willing to declare Trav the winner in this discussion. And I am glad this discussion took place because I learned some useful new information. Thanks a lot Trav.


Where did I say Fuchs make an internal engine cleaner? I was just pointing out that they are the no 1 company in Germany, rather than LM for commercial users like farmers or trucking companies.
I use LM oil because they are cheaper than Castrol and have stated that a number of times, I also like Shell and Mobil but they are more difficult to obtain in my area. For some reason you are commenting on my posts without reading them as the target for that law suit has not been defined yet as it will be months before the product has a legally recognised ID, because the owner does not have receipts to prove it was an LM flush. I am off for 2 days now, but will look for the U tube link as it was filmed and posted there.
I hope the winner of any discussion will be the folks that read snake oil advertising, who might realise that at best the product they read about is not needed and a waste of money and at worst will damage their engine.
Any good prossional engineer knows about how bad oil additives are, but there is no convincing folks brain washed by the advertising or their inability to read the engine or vehicle manuals.

 

[Mystic]

So it will take months for them to identify what cleaner was used in the car that crashed? Somehow I think the investigation would take less time than that. And if the owner survived the crash than the owner should have some clue about what was used. If not the owner than whatever garage put the engine cleaner in the engine. The owner at least knows what garage put the engine cleaner it, right? How many different brands of cleaner does that garage use?

I think if there was a major lawsuit involved chemists could probably determine fairly quickly what engine cleaner was used. Brand A has this chemcial composition and Brand B has this chemical composition.

Oh well-who cares.

 

[Trav]

So there is no proof whatsoever. Thats pretty much what i thought but i figured i would give you the benefit of the doubt and let you post some proof.

First. If there was the slightest possibility that this were factual LM would react in some way. What you are talking about is a very serious liability if someone gets hurt or killed.
They have not.
I think you may be a little economical with the facts on this matter.

Second you only come back is to claim..
Originally Posted By: skyship
brain washed by the advertising or their inability to read the engine or vehicle manuals


Insulting people and questioning their ability to understand what they read is not going to improve you position.
I am sure this gentleman would be interested in your story.

Uwe Krügel
Leiter F & E / Anwendungstechnik
Director R & D / Application Engineering
LIQUI MOLY GMBH

I'm sure you understand what i am getting at.

 

[SteveSRT8]

(and a hush fell over the room)

 

[kr_bitog]

Interesting thread, even though many creep from the actual topic

Look forward for more evidence to proof the hypothesis.
Sometimes ambient temperature.moisture, engine material and usage patterns influence the result, so to get the baselined/standarized result will be interesting.

 

[FoxS]

Forget that! I want to know what this Uwe Krugel business is about.

Clearly there is some personal animosity towards skyship which I don't have the backstory on but honestly skyship, you don't help yourself with your writing style.

Very very long sentences and paragraphs where you change subject without warning. It sounded like you were talking about Fuchs as an internal cleaner because you switched topics in the same paragraph without warning.

However, I've read your posts carefully, painful as your writing style makes it, and you bring up some interesting points.

The at idle engine flush interests me. What are the circumstances under which one should do them to see any benefit? What benefit should one see? Longer OCI? Who has the best product readily available in the US?

 

[Mystic]

There are only two possibilities here. Either Skyship is correct or Trav is correct. I am going to go with Trav. Trav has been a good poster here who really seems to know what he is talking about.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Trav
So there is no proof whatsoever. Thats pretty much what i thought but i figured i would give you the benefit of the doubt and let you post some proof.

First. If there was the slightest possibility that this were factual LM would react in some way. What you are talking about is a very serious liability if someone gets hurt or killed.
They have not.
I think you may be a little economical with the facts on this matter.

Second you only come back is to claim..
Originally Posted By: skyship
brain washed by the advertising or their inability to read the engine or vehicle manuals


Insulting people and questioning their ability to understand what they read is not going to improve you position.
I am sure this gentleman would be interested in your story.

Uwe Krügel
Leiter F & E / Anwendungstechnik
Director R & D / Application Engineering
LIQUI MOLY GMBH

I'm sure you understand what i am getting at.


OK I called the R&D oil analysis chap that was involved and he did give me some more info, which is that there is no product liability case possible because they can't ID the product, other than it's a flush type chemical. I presume they look too alike in chemical terms.
There is no way it is an LM product because it was bought from a shop near the Ford dealer in Wangen and I know the shop concerned because I visited it about 2 years ago and it sells mostly Mobil products and is not listed as an LM retailer. Mobil don't sell a flush I am aware of to the public, so it must be some other company.
AXA are contemplating taking action against the garage that put the additive in the oil, but the additive was purchased by the owner and the garage who were only working on the brakes say the owner added it. The legal case hinges on where the vehicle was parked, because several friends of the owner said it was inside the garage not outside, so regardless of who did it the garage is responsible.
The engineering report said the turbo was old but seviceable when the car was test driven after the brakes were serviced and the filter had 17K km since it was last changed. The filter was probably blocked (They are testing it at present) as a result of the additive use and that factor along with Silicon particles and partial obstruction of the turbo feed line cause the turbo failure at near full power on the autobahn. The oil seal in the turbo was not an original (Re-built unit) and it split allowing engine oil into the intake causing a sudden runaway.
Very few drivers of turbo diesels know how to deal with a runaway (Stuck at full power) and have a nasty habit of turning off the keys and locking the steering etc. All you do is brake hard if in gear, or slam the stick into a high gear asap if in neutral and then brake causing the engine to stall. The difference to a foot mat jammed under the accelerator is the big cloud of white smoke as a diesel will run just as fast on oil as fuel and switching off makes no difference if the turbo seal has failed in a big way. If left alone in neutral they over rev and after a few minutes blow up with lots of smoke and steam, but no fire.
I thought somebody got hurt, but that was a different accident and the claim is for 3 damaged cars and mental trauma (The owner has given up driving or something strange) which had to be paid by AXA. I will see if I can find it again on U tub, because the owner was standing close to the engine when it blew, hence to claim for mental trauma from the bang.
Apologies I got this case mixed up with a very similar one that happened just before in Austria, which was just another wrong oil case in a very expensive 400hp turbo diesel Porsch SUV.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Take a look at what Trav posted above demarpaint. If Trav is correct Skyship does not even know what is being used in German garages. And if those products are so effective it would be nice if we could get them and test them in the USA (although BG44K or Redline fuel system cleaner would eliminate the need for the fuel system cleaner).


This is the data sheet to the PROLINE idle only flush that is the most common one and the only one approved for use as a maintenance product by dealers in my area and it's available in the US, the Amsoil one is very similar but it says 15 minutes: FLUSH

This is the data sheet to the OIL SLUDGE SCOURER, it is not a flush and is only listed on the German site. It has no approvals and there is a specific warning not to use high power settings when in use (THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF DAMAGING THE TURBO OR EVEN CAUSING A RANAWAY):
SCOURER

---IF NECESSARY CLEAN THE SCREEN FOR THE OIL PUMP IN THE SUMP.

All companies make stupid products and the latter is one good example, they don't even mention it might be a good idea to change the oil & filter in particular before trying to use it.

 

[Mystic]

I am very thankful that we had somebody like Trav at this website who speaks German and knows what is used in German garages.

Thanks a lot Trav for your knowledge about what is used at German garages and for your insight into all of this.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I am very thankful that we had somebody like Trav at this website who speaks German and knows what is used in German garages.

Thanks a lot Trav for your knowledge about what is used at German garages and for your insight into all of this.


The folks in the US have no clue about how serious German regulations are, I only deal with the main dealers (Except VW) and several big service chains that do almost any work that is non warranty related. NONE OF THEM CAN RELEASE A CAR FROM THE CONFINES OF THEIR WORK AREA WITH ANY FLUID IN IT THAT IS NOT EITHER DIRECTLY APPROVED BY THE MANUFACTURER IN THE CASE OF THE DEALERS, OR HOLDS A FRANCHISE CHAIN APPROVAL (DIFFERENT BRANDS ONLY). If you read the two spec sheats the flush is called PROLINE for a very good reason.
The insurance policies that I am involved with the overview for that cover the liability of the franchise or dealership owners are very specific about what is in the crankcase when the car leaves the garage. LM is the local company and they only make one flush that can be used by a professional, unless he is an independent operator.
No one even mentions the other nasty chemical and using UK imports is a no go for political reasons until you get North of Stuttgart. Once you get North of Frankfurt they often brew their own flush mixes even at the dealers, as it's easy to make.

 

[Trav]

Beam me up now. This is so far over the top its not funny.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Beam me up now. This is so far over the top its not funny.

VERY TRUE, the users of drive around flushes and folks that throw snake oil into a crankcase to wreck a good oil are additive addicts, there is no persuading them it's a bad idea and none of them think an owners handbook with the DON'T USE OIL ADDITIVES is worth reading. Good to try though because I hate to see good engines or boxes damaged by fluid abuse, or people fooled by silly advertising.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I am very thankful that we had somebody like Trav at this website who speaks German and knows what is used in German garages.

Thanks a lot Trav for your knowledge about what is used at German garages and for your insight into all of this.


I even like Trav for his other knowledge. What goes on in germany sounds messed up!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: Trav
Beam me up now. This is so far over the top its not funny.

VERY TRUE, the users of drive around flushes and folks that throw snake oil into a crankcase to wreck a good oil are additive addicts, there is no persuading them it's a bad idea and none of them think an owners handbook with the DON'T USE OIL ADDITIVES is worth reading. Good to try though because I hate to see good engines or boxes damaged by fluid abuse, or people fooled by silly advertising.


But you'll use a fast flush, and hand pick additives? What's it going to be? Your going to tell people with decades of experience, some 40+ years in the business, and with real world success stories that they're wrong. It ain't gonna happen, not here, sorry.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: Trav
Beam me up now. This is so far over the top its not funny.

VERY TRUE, the users of drive around flushes and folks that throw snake oil into a crankcase to wreck a good oil are additive addicts, there is no persuading them it's a bad idea and none of them think an owners handbook with the DON'T USE OIL ADDITIVES is worth reading. Good to try though because I hate to see good engines or boxes damaged by fluid abuse, or people fooled by silly advertising.


But you'll use a fast flush, and hand pick additives? What's it going to be? Your going to tell people with decades of experience, some 40+ years in the business, and with real world success stories that they're wrong. It ain't gonna happen, not here, sorry.


I don't include additives that are used within the confines of a garage as snake oils, only those left in the car that breach the basic terms of the warranty and warnings in the handbook. We all hand pick everything, but I don't recommend any drive around additive use unless the manufacturer has issued an approval for that specific product and engine etc. Unless you live overseas and can't buy good oil.
For some reason you are confusing products used during a clearly defined maintenance procedure with those just thrown in afterwards because the owner has read too much advertising or his father used it.
No one with a serious modern R&D engineering background has commented on my posts so far (They seem to steer clear of the additives page). Modern engines are very different to the engines that sludged up on a regular basis, but some engineers form opinions based on what they did in the past and still think that drive around flushes or other additives are the cure to any engine problem that is oil related. I once put oil thickner (STP) in an engine many years ago, before I got more involved with modern diesels, but I would never do that again with a modern engine, although it did work in the old Ford V6.
Luckily the insurance industry that covers the main dealers and Iffy lube type chains in the EU, in addition to the better independent garages will not allow the use of non maintenance related oil additives and all engineers working for those companies follow the procedures in the related documentation, otherwise they might invalidate their own companies insurance if a customer makes a claim.
My own comments are more applicable to modernish (Last 20 years, common rail etc) turbo diesels and Porsch engines, they may not be entirely applicable to big block gas engines or new hybrids in some cases. I tend to forget folks still drive petrol cars, as apart from the Smart and Porsch cars, I see very few and don't even know a petrol car owner apart from the cleaner who has a 25 year old VW Polo or something similar.