When to use an oil additive.
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Originally Posted By: yonyon
Wait, so do cross dressers read manuals more or less than non-cross dressing females? Do heavy metal musicians count as cross dressers if they only cross dress as part of a performance? Where do martial artists fit into all of this?
Those guys/gals aren't on this forum. They don't care about oils. Cross dressers, metal heads, and martial artists are more into themselves, than they are into their vehicles.
Wait, so do cross dressers read manuals more or less than non-cross dressing females? Do heavy metal musicians count as cross dressers if they only cross dress as part of a performance? Where do martial artists fit into all of this?
Those guys/gals aren't on this forum. They don't care about oils. Cross dressers, metal heads, and martial artists are more into themselves, than they are into their vehicles.
Oil is a multi-billion dollar global industry. Two of the most important attributes of this industry are stiff competition and hectic infighting for protection of vested interests. Engine oils that these companies market conform to various international specifications like SAE and API. The main motive with which these companies operate is obviously profit. However, it’s not a profit at any cost situation. The quality of the product is also something very important for these oil companies. It’s this quality that can give them an edge in capturing and retaining a sizeable market share. So, most oil companies invariably try to market good quality engine oil that optimizes performance and ensures higher engine life.
But, the most important question is – how sincere are these oil companies in making really good oil? Do they make the best quality oil? The answer is certainly a big NO. Let’s see why this is so. First, the expression “best quality” is completely relative. One oil may be good for a particular type of engine and not so good for another. Moreover, there is no such end-goal specification, only set regulatory standards.
Research is unfolding new possibilities almost every day. In this highly dynamic situation, it is quite possible for an oil brand that is an excellent quality today, get replaced by a more efficient substitute tomorrow. Therefore, there is nothing sacrosanct about best quality oil. Second and most important, oil companies would never make the “ultimate” oil, even if it was theoretically possible, because that runs counter to their business interests. Optimum quality oil can mean more shelf-life and less replacement and this will obviously make their markets take a beating. It is, therefore, a natural conclusion that oil companies do not make, rather do not endeavour to make, the best quality oil. Rather, it’s in their business interest to promote marketing and strategic associations to earn more money, than devoting resources for quality optimization.
There are interesting examples on this. A very well known worldwide oil manufacturer (renowned for their quality fully synthetic oils) spend more on marketing than they do on R&D and production put together! Another well know petroleum supplier in the UK owns the rights to Slick 50 and despite the many complaints and legal cases that have surfaced and the brand having been notorious in tarnishing the oil additive market in general, this supplier purchased the rights to Slick 50 and continue to sell this product today. Why? Because it still makes money!
But, the most important question is – how sincere are these oil companies in making really good oil? Do they make the best quality oil? The answer is certainly a big NO. Let’s see why this is so. First, the expression “best quality” is completely relative. One oil may be good for a particular type of engine and not so good for another. Moreover, there is no such end-goal specification, only set regulatory standards.
Research is unfolding new possibilities almost every day. In this highly dynamic situation, it is quite possible for an oil brand that is an excellent quality today, get replaced by a more efficient substitute tomorrow. Therefore, there is nothing sacrosanct about best quality oil. Second and most important, oil companies would never make the “ultimate” oil, even if it was theoretically possible, because that runs counter to their business interests. Optimum quality oil can mean more shelf-life and less replacement and this will obviously make their markets take a beating. It is, therefore, a natural conclusion that oil companies do not make, rather do not endeavour to make, the best quality oil. Rather, it’s in their business interest to promote marketing and strategic associations to earn more money, than devoting resources for quality optimization.
There are interesting examples on this. A very well known worldwide oil manufacturer (renowned for their quality fully synthetic oils) spend more on marketing than they do on R&D and production put together! Another well know petroleum supplier in the UK owns the rights to Slick 50 and despite the many complaints and legal cases that have surfaced and the brand having been notorious in tarnishing the oil additive market in general, this supplier purchased the rights to Slick 50 and continue to sell this product today. Why? Because it still makes money!
Nice post johnny-b
But in the end, I think it's a Live and Let Live kinda answer.
For skyship to post on BITOG as some sort of "expert" warning everyone that using oil additives is a bad idea, is ridiculous.
For no other reason than....who in the **** do you think you are?
I have every right, as an American, to do whatever I want to. And as a man, I accept the responsibilities that come with such action. Whether it be rallying a protest against Congress, spanking my kids, or pouring MoS2 into my oil. People have every right to buy Slick50 too....despite its reputation.
Free enterprise is the name of the game. You can't have both an open and a sucker-free market. An open market allows for all kinds of new innovation and advancement. And it allows uninformed consumers to waste their money on bad products. It's up to the consumer to make their own decisions. I believe that we, as a country, need to continue to give people enough rope to hang themselves. Having a free marketplace is the spawning ground of invention. And suckers taking the bait. Inform yourselves. Make your own decisions and live with the consequences.
There are a lot of smart people on this forum. But there are more sheep. Way more. If there was even one person, just one, who would post engine damage of any kind that could even be remotely linked to fairly a accepted additive on this forum, I wouldn't use them. I don't think most would either. But no one has been able to do that.
I'm not adding anything to my oil that isn't already in there. Nor am I adding anything an oil company wouldn't add if it wasn't so concerned about their profits.
But in the end, I think it's a Live and Let Live kinda answer.
For skyship to post on BITOG as some sort of "expert" warning everyone that using oil additives is a bad idea, is ridiculous.
For no other reason than....who in the **** do you think you are?
I have every right, as an American, to do whatever I want to. And as a man, I accept the responsibilities that come with such action. Whether it be rallying a protest against Congress, spanking my kids, or pouring MoS2 into my oil. People have every right to buy Slick50 too....despite its reputation.
Free enterprise is the name of the game. You can't have both an open and a sucker-free market. An open market allows for all kinds of new innovation and advancement. And it allows uninformed consumers to waste their money on bad products. It's up to the consumer to make their own decisions. I believe that we, as a country, need to continue to give people enough rope to hang themselves. Having a free marketplace is the spawning ground of invention. And suckers taking the bait. Inform yourselves. Make your own decisions and live with the consequences.
There are a lot of smart people on this forum. But there are more sheep. Way more. If there was even one person, just one, who would post engine damage of any kind that could even be remotely linked to fairly a accepted additive on this forum, I wouldn't use them. I don't think most would either. But no one has been able to do that.
I'm not adding anything to my oil that isn't already in there. Nor am I adding anything an oil company wouldn't add if it wasn't so concerned about their profits.
Originally Posted By: Phishin
This really isn't about oil additives. It's about a life-style, a mind-set.
In general, people feel better about themselves and their safety, when other larger figures/agencies tell them that their way is the best and not to be questioned.
The real telling fact is: People who refuse to use additives get all bent out of shape towards people who do. But people who do use additives, don't give a second thought to those who don't. VERY TRUE.
My theory is: The people who don't use additives do so out of trust. But then they feel like they might be missing something....and get defensive and start threads like skyship....and if they keep on with this anti-additive mindset, they don't ever have to get off their duff, investigate, become educated, or try something new. They continue to believe that everyone who wants their money has their best interest at heart and when fear arises and they begin to question their belief system, they can continue their defensive attitudes and attack others.
It's the same reason why people who don't have tattoo's make inconsiderate comments to those that have them....but people who do have tattoo's don't say anything or cop an attitude towards those that don't have tattoo's.
There are two forces in this world that make people look really silly: Fear and Ignorance.
And there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
Nice post, and good summary.
Applies to mixing as well.
This really isn't about oil additives. It's about a life-style, a mind-set.
In general, people feel better about themselves and their safety, when other larger figures/agencies tell them that their way is the best and not to be questioned.
The real telling fact is: People who refuse to use additives get all bent out of shape towards people who do. But people who do use additives, don't give a second thought to those who don't. VERY TRUE.
My theory is: The people who don't use additives do so out of trust. But then they feel like they might be missing something....and get defensive and start threads like skyship....and if they keep on with this anti-additive mindset, they don't ever have to get off their duff, investigate, become educated, or try something new. They continue to believe that everyone who wants their money has their best interest at heart and when fear arises and they begin to question their belief system, they can continue their defensive attitudes and attack others.
It's the same reason why people who don't have tattoo's make inconsiderate comments to those that have them....but people who do have tattoo's don't say anything or cop an attitude towards those that don't have tattoo's.
There are two forces in this world that make people look really silly: Fear and Ignorance.
And there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
Nice post, and good summary.
Applies to mixing as well.
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Nice post johnny-b
But in the end, I think it's a Live and Let Live kinda answer.
For skyship to post on BITOG as some sort of "expert" warning everyone that using oil additives is a bad idea, is ridiculous.
For no other reason than....who in the **** do you think you are?
I have every right, as an American, to do whatever I want to. And as a man, I accept the responsibilities that come with such action. Whether it be rallying a protest against Congress, spanking my kids, or pouring MoS2 into my oil. People have every right to buy Slick50 too....despite its reputation.
Free enterprise is the name of the game. You can't have both an open and a sucker-free market. An open market allows for all kinds of new innovation and advancement. And it allows uninformed consumers to waste their money on bad products. It's up to the consumer to make their own decisions. I believe that we, as a country, need to continue to give people enough rope to hang themselves. Having a free marketplace is the spawning ground of invention. And suckers taking the bait. Inform yourselves. Make your own decisions and live with the consequences.
There are a lot of smart people on this forum. But there are more sheep. Way more. If there was even one person, just one, who would post engine damage of any kind that could even be remotely linked to fairly a accepted additive on this forum, I wouldn't use them. I don't think most would either. But no one has been able to do that.
I'm not adding anything to my oil that isn't already in there. Nor am I adding anything an oil company wouldn't add if it wasn't so concerned about their profits.
Very strange response, as I am just presenting the case in the way a manufacturer gives instructions to maintenance staff, so it's just a matter of understanding style, although I have pushed the boundaries beyond the normal instructions to include terminal phase problems that engineers don't deal with in a professional capacity because they just tell you to buy a new engine or gearbox.
I don't know why you find that style problematic, but I presume you might write to the chap that wrote your car or truck handbook in the same manner, as they write in the same style.
If you search Google for oil additive problems you will find a lot of reported incidents BUT when you get a failure there is no point posting pictures because the results of oil abuse look just like many other failures. Oddly enough sludge is one common result, but there is no point posting sludge pictures, as the folks that are believers in the use of snake oil will just say it's normal sludge and the same applies to blown turbo bearings. Anyone that knows about the chemistry of oil additives knows exactly what happens when you adulterate the oil and what the long or short terms effects will be, but selling snake oil that has no approvals or even recommendations from an engine manufacturer is not illegal. The company selling those snake oils does not even have to test them.
Nice post johnny-b
But in the end, I think it's a Live and Let Live kinda answer.
For skyship to post on BITOG as some sort of "expert" warning everyone that using oil additives is a bad idea, is ridiculous.
For no other reason than....who in the **** do you think you are?
I have every right, as an American, to do whatever I want to. And as a man, I accept the responsibilities that come with such action. Whether it be rallying a protest against Congress, spanking my kids, or pouring MoS2 into my oil. People have every right to buy Slick50 too....despite its reputation.
Free enterprise is the name of the game. You can't have both an open and a sucker-free market. An open market allows for all kinds of new innovation and advancement. And it allows uninformed consumers to waste their money on bad products. It's up to the consumer to make their own decisions. I believe that we, as a country, need to continue to give people enough rope to hang themselves. Having a free marketplace is the spawning ground of invention. And suckers taking the bait. Inform yourselves. Make your own decisions and live with the consequences.
There are a lot of smart people on this forum. But there are more sheep. Way more. If there was even one person, just one, who would post engine damage of any kind that could even be remotely linked to fairly a accepted additive on this forum, I wouldn't use them. I don't think most would either. But no one has been able to do that.
I'm not adding anything to my oil that isn't already in there. Nor am I adding anything an oil company wouldn't add if it wasn't so concerned about their profits.
Very strange response, as I am just presenting the case in the way a manufacturer gives instructions to maintenance staff, so it's just a matter of understanding style, although I have pushed the boundaries beyond the normal instructions to include terminal phase problems that engineers don't deal with in a professional capacity because they just tell you to buy a new engine or gearbox.
I don't know why you find that style problematic, but I presume you might write to the chap that wrote your car or truck handbook in the same manner, as they write in the same style.
If you search Google for oil additive problems you will find a lot of reported incidents BUT when you get a failure there is no point posting pictures because the results of oil abuse look just like many other failures. Oddly enough sludge is one common result, but there is no point posting sludge pictures, as the folks that are believers in the use of snake oil will just say it's normal sludge and the same applies to blown turbo bearings. Anyone that knows about the chemistry of oil additives knows exactly what happens when you adulterate the oil and what the long or short terms effects will be, but selling snake oil that has no approvals or even recommendations from an engine manufacturer is not illegal. The company selling those snake oils does not even have to test them.
I'm not adding anything to my oil that isn't already in there. Nor am I adding anything an oil company wouldn't add if it wasn't so concerned about their profits.
That section of the last reply from an additives fan is one classic misunderstanding, because a can of snake oil contains the cheapest possible version of each listed ingrediant available, the average cost of the contents is around 20 cents.
You are most definitely not adding chemicals that are already in the oil, almost everything will be different to the oil you are adding it to, for example if it lists Moly it will be the cheapest of three versions available and adding it to an expensive full synthetic from Castrol and LM will cause the new generation add packs to fail, as they had to stop using Moly years ago in their best oils because of chemical interactions. There are UOA and VOA's for both Castrol and LM G4 synthetics on this site and they have no Moly, although it is still used in cheaper oils.
That section of the last reply from an additives fan is one classic misunderstanding, because a can of snake oil contains the cheapest possible version of each listed ingrediant available, the average cost of the contents is around 20 cents.
You are most definitely not adding chemicals that are already in the oil, almost everything will be different to the oil you are adding it to, for example if it lists Moly it will be the cheapest of three versions available and adding it to an expensive full synthetic from Castrol and LM will cause the new generation add packs to fail, as they had to stop using Moly years ago in their best oils because of chemical interactions. There are UOA and VOA's for both Castrol and LM G4 synthetics on this site and they have no Moly, although it is still used in cheaper oils.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
That section of the last reply from an additives fan is one classic misunderstanding, because a can of snake oil contains the cheapest possible version of each listed ingrediant available, the average cost of the contents is around 20 cents.
You are most definitely not adding chemicals that are already in the oil, almost everything will be different to the oil you are adding it to, for example if it lists Moly it will be the cheapest of three versions available and adding it to an expensive full synthetic from Castrol and LM will cause the new generation add packs to fail, as they had to stop using Moly years ago in their best oils because of chemical interactions. There are UOA and VOA's for both Castrol and LM G4 synthetics on this site and they have no Moly, although it is still used in cheaper oils.
that 20c sounds pretty specific, which chemicals, and suppliers, as I'm pretty interested in some of the stuff, without the polyisobutylenes and the like, just straight AW stuff.
Still have a 1/3 qt of Mola's SX-UP in the shed, that I'm loathe to use, just in case I really need it.
Why the diss on moly ?
That section of the last reply from an additives fan is one classic misunderstanding, because a can of snake oil contains the cheapest possible version of each listed ingrediant available, the average cost of the contents is around 20 cents.
You are most definitely not adding chemicals that are already in the oil, almost everything will be different to the oil you are adding it to, for example if it lists Moly it will be the cheapest of three versions available and adding it to an expensive full synthetic from Castrol and LM will cause the new generation add packs to fail, as they had to stop using Moly years ago in their best oils because of chemical interactions. There are UOA and VOA's for both Castrol and LM G4 synthetics on this site and they have no Moly, although it is still used in cheaper oils.
that 20c sounds pretty specific, which chemicals, and suppliers, as I'm pretty interested in some of the stuff, without the polyisobutylenes and the like, just straight AW stuff.
Still have a 1/3 qt of Mola's SX-UP in the shed, that I'm loathe to use, just in case I really need it.
Why the diss on moly ?
My theory is: The people who don't use additives do so out of trust. But then they feel like they might be missing something....and get defensive and start threads like skyship....and if they keep on with this anti-additive mindset, they don't ever have to get off their duff, investigate, become educated, or try something new.
The people that don't use additives do so because they know that a good quality engine oil can't be improved (A supermarket grade oil might be helped) and that the chaps that write the maintenance manuals for an engine that say, don't use oil additives, have their best interests at heart.
The major engine oil companies (Castrol, Mobil, Shell and LM) constantly test new additives, including those developed by independent companies and if they find a new chemical that improves an engine oil the associated company will be purchased so fast their product won't make it to the local Wallmart. Every independent additives company sends samples to the R&D labs once they have taken out a patent in the hope of getting a big offer from one of the majors. Very few additives have been developed by independent oil technicians, but a few have and they are no longer for sale but have become part of the new generation add packs in a few cases.
I have been investigating the use of Ceretec in detail and have looked at data available in the local oil analysis facility as I visit the place about once a week in a professional capacity. It's the only oil additive that does not appear to harm a top quality oil, but in statistical terms I still can't justify recommending it, BUT as an experiment I will try it in my own engine once I have more data for a comparison. There is a very slight chance it might improve bottom end wear rates, probably about the same chance it has of making the figures worse, so that will just be an experiment. It will take 6 sets of UOA results (3 before and 3 after) to get a rough idea of the effect and then I won't really know until the exhaust is replaced if I caused additional deposits as a side effect.
The people that don't use additives do so because they know that a good quality engine oil can't be improved (A supermarket grade oil might be helped) and that the chaps that write the maintenance manuals for an engine that say, don't use oil additives, have their best interests at heart.
The major engine oil companies (Castrol, Mobil, Shell and LM) constantly test new additives, including those developed by independent companies and if they find a new chemical that improves an engine oil the associated company will be purchased so fast their product won't make it to the local Wallmart. Every independent additives company sends samples to the R&D labs once they have taken out a patent in the hope of getting a big offer from one of the majors. Very few additives have been developed by independent oil technicians, but a few have and they are no longer for sale but have become part of the new generation add packs in a few cases.
I have been investigating the use of Ceretec in detail and have looked at data available in the local oil analysis facility as I visit the place about once a week in a professional capacity. It's the only oil additive that does not appear to harm a top quality oil, but in statistical terms I still can't justify recommending it, BUT as an experiment I will try it in my own engine once I have more data for a comparison. There is a very slight chance it might improve bottom end wear rates, probably about the same chance it has of making the figures worse, so that will just be an experiment. It will take 6 sets of UOA results (3 before and 3 after) to get a rough idea of the effect and then I won't really know until the exhaust is replaced if I caused additional deposits as a side effect.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Phishin
This really isn't about oil additives. It's about a life-style, a mind-set.
In general, people feel better about themselves and their safety, when other larger figures/agencies tell them that their way is the best and not to be questioned.
The real telling fact is: People who refuse to use additives get all bent out of shape towards people who do. But people who do use additives, don't give a second thought to those who don't. VERY TRUE.
My theory is: The people who don't use additives do so out of trust. But then they feel like they might be missing something....and get defensive and start threads like skyship....and if they keep on with this anti-additive mindset, they don't ever have to get off their duff, investigate, become educated, or try something new. They continue to believe that everyone who wants their money has their best interest at heart and when fear arises and they begin to question their belief system, they can continue their defensive attitudes and attack others.
It's the same reason why people who don't have tattoo's make inconsiderate comments to those that have them....but people who do have tattoo's don't say anything or cop an attitude towards those that don't have tattoo's.
There are two forces in this world that make people look really silly: Fear and Ignorance.
And there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
Nice post, and good summary.
Applies to mixing as well.
Mixing is a different game and some race folks do it in a sensible manner using oils from the same company. For 99% of users who are able to purchase a full range of engine oils, it is just a waste of time. I've looked through some docs for rejected warranty claims and the only ones are for Porsch turbo bearings when some clown mixed GTX with Edge. It caused high temp shearing and nasty varnish resulting in an expensive bang, although the main block was fine. I traced it down to a muppet of trainee in a Frankfurt garage.
Originally Posted By: Phishin
This really isn't about oil additives. It's about a life-style, a mind-set.
In general, people feel better about themselves and their safety, when other larger figures/agencies tell them that their way is the best and not to be questioned.
The real telling fact is: People who refuse to use additives get all bent out of shape towards people who do. But people who do use additives, don't give a second thought to those who don't. VERY TRUE.
My theory is: The people who don't use additives do so out of trust. But then they feel like they might be missing something....and get defensive and start threads like skyship....and if they keep on with this anti-additive mindset, they don't ever have to get off their duff, investigate, become educated, or try something new. They continue to believe that everyone who wants their money has their best interest at heart and when fear arises and they begin to question their belief system, they can continue their defensive attitudes and attack others.
It's the same reason why people who don't have tattoo's make inconsiderate comments to those that have them....but people who do have tattoo's don't say anything or cop an attitude towards those that don't have tattoo's.
There are two forces in this world that make people look really silly: Fear and Ignorance.
And there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
Nice post, and good summary.
Applies to mixing as well.
Mixing is a different game and some race folks do it in a sensible manner using oils from the same company. For 99% of users who are able to purchase a full range of engine oils, it is just a waste of time. I've looked through some docs for rejected warranty claims and the only ones are for Porsch turbo bearings when some clown mixed GTX with Edge. It caused high temp shearing and nasty varnish resulting in an expensive bang, although the main block was fine. I traced it down to a muppet of trainee in a Frankfurt garage.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
The people that don't use additives do so because they know that a good quality engine oil can't be improved (A supermarket grade oil might be helped) and that the chaps that write the maintenance manuals for an engine that say, don't use oil additives, have their best interests at heart.
Interesting, so that means the oil companies make the very best oil there is and nothing is better. So there is ZERO difference in quality from Mobil, Castrol, Shell, Amsoil, Red Line, or any other non-Supermarket Oil? If so why is there a good, better, and best mentality with the oil companies. Case in point, and I'm not picking on them but, Amsoil has OE [Good], XL [Better], and SS [Best]. Other companies do pretty much the same thing. If an oil couldn't be improved, what's going on here? Even SS could be made better, however price point and profit come into play. So what you said is a totally false statement. Remember oil companies are in business to make money, profit comes first. If you can prove otherwise with facts, not your opinion, go for it!
As a side note, additives have their place in certain applications, or to help resolve problems caused by neglect, poor design due to lousy engineering, cost cutting, not enough testing, or bean counters messing with a design to cut costs. The world, as well as oil, is far from perfect.
Now Ceretec might be OK, and is worthy of your testing, a least according to you? LOL
The people that don't use additives do so because they know that a good quality engine oil can't be improved (A supermarket grade oil might be helped) and that the chaps that write the maintenance manuals for an engine that say, don't use oil additives, have their best interests at heart.
Interesting, so that means the oil companies make the very best oil there is and nothing is better. So there is ZERO difference in quality from Mobil, Castrol, Shell, Amsoil, Red Line, or any other non-Supermarket Oil? If so why is there a good, better, and best mentality with the oil companies. Case in point, and I'm not picking on them but, Amsoil has OE [Good], XL [Better], and SS [Best]. Other companies do pretty much the same thing. If an oil couldn't be improved, what's going on here? Even SS could be made better, however price point and profit come into play. So what you said is a totally false statement. Remember oil companies are in business to make money, profit comes first. If you can prove otherwise with facts, not your opinion, go for it!
As a side note, additives have their place in certain applications, or to help resolve problems caused by neglect, poor design due to lousy engineering, cost cutting, not enough testing, or bean counters messing with a design to cut costs. The world, as well as oil, is far from perfect.
Now Ceretec might be OK, and is worthy of your testing, a least according to you? LOL
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
As a side note, additives have their place in certain applications, or to help resolve problems caused by neglect, poor design due to lousy engineering, cost cutting, not enough testing, or bean counters messing with a design to cut costs. The world, as well as oil, is far from perfect. (PART OF LAST REPLY)
I agree that the world is far from perfect and that the oil companies have not improved the performance of their oils very much over the past years except in terms of how long they last or race turbo applications. Castrol GTX 5/30 is almost as good as Castrol Edge 5/30 over a short 5K mile OCI if you don't try and fry it in a race standard turbo. The one thing that most oil companies won't admit is that with their top of the range oils they have reached a point where they can't be improved to any significant degree without causing exhaust system side effects and the better full synthetics contain the maximum amount of additives (About 25%) that can be used without a reduction in the lubrication efficiency of the base stock.
Additives do have a place when used according to a specific approval from the engine manufacturer, but all the other problems like sludge, varnish, cold start rattles, hot rattles, oil leaks, high oil consumption et al can be helped by changing the oil type or viscosity, that is far safer and more effective than using a can of snake oil that is not just used during a maintenance procedure.
Unfortuntely some folks never read the instructions just the advertising.
ZERO difference in quality from Mobil, Castrol, Shell, Amsoil, Red Line, or any other non-Supermarket Oil?
WOW!! DELETE THE LAST 2 AND YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT!
I agree that the world is far from perfect and that the oil companies have not improved the performance of their oils very much over the past years except in terms of how long they last or race turbo applications. Castrol GTX 5/30 is almost as good as Castrol Edge 5/30 over a short 5K mile OCI if you don't try and fry it in a race standard turbo. The one thing that most oil companies won't admit is that with their top of the range oils they have reached a point where they can't be improved to any significant degree without causing exhaust system side effects and the better full synthetics contain the maximum amount of additives (About 25%) that can be used without a reduction in the lubrication efficiency of the base stock.
Additives do have a place when used according to a specific approval from the engine manufacturer, but all the other problems like sludge, varnish, cold start rattles, hot rattles, oil leaks, high oil consumption et al can be helped by changing the oil type or viscosity, that is far safer and more effective than using a can of snake oil that is not just used during a maintenance procedure.
Unfortuntely some folks never read the instructions just the advertising.
ZERO difference in quality from Mobil, Castrol, Shell, Amsoil, Red Line, or any other non-Supermarket Oil?
WOW!! DELETE THE LAST 2 AND YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT!
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Originally Posted By: skyship
ZERO difference in quality from Mobil, Castrol, Shell, Amsoil, Red Line, or any other non-Supermarket Oil?
WOW!! DELETE THE LAST 2 AND YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT!
I won't touch that with a 10' pole. LOL
ZERO difference in quality from Mobil, Castrol, Shell, Amsoil, Red Line, or any other non-Supermarket Oil?
WOW!! DELETE THE LAST 2 AND YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT!
I won't touch that with a 10' pole. LOL
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
And it would seem the same math leads one to conjecture that no one ADDITIVE could ever answer all the needs out there.
Then you must also remember that due to their very nature these additives will be used in many 'hopeless causes' where they will appear ineffective or harmful. Perhaps that's where Skyship lives?
As stated previously, I love anecdotal information and would support his right to post it. Just so everyone knows that....
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
And it would seem the same math leads one to conjecture that no one ADDITIVE could ever answer all the needs out there.
Then you must also remember that due to their very nature these additives will be used in many 'hopeless causes' where they will appear ineffective or harmful. Perhaps that's where Skyship lives?
As stated previously, I love anecdotal information and would support his right to post it. Just so everyone knows that....
LIST OF OLD AGE ENGINE PROBLEMS AND ADDITIVE USE EFFECTS
PROBLEM: SLUDGE or VARNISH. / SNAKE OIL: Various solvent and thin oil additives.
RESULTS: Not too bad in big block non turbo engines if the oil pump filter screen does not get blocked. A true horror story for modern engines and a significant cause of blown turbos and serious oil leaks.
RECOMMENDED: READ THE ENGINE MAINTENANCE MANUAL AS THERE WILL BE A SECTION ABOUT CLEANING, for a minor case take a chance and use a major oil company at idle only flush before an oil change to an HM oil or high detergent full synthetic with a short first OCI.
PROBLEM: COLD START RATTLES / SNAKE OIL: Various types.
RESULTS: Just gambling and the results might be temporary at best and not as good as changing to a better oil and filter. Serious damage if you use the wrong product or have not identified the fault correctly.
RECOMMENDATION: Find out what is making the noise first, then use a better oil like an 0W or a different filter according to the nature of the problem. Don't guess at a solution.
PROBLEM: Terminal phase hot rattles. / SNAKE OIL: Various thickners.
RESULTS: Serious cold start problems, overheating and sludge formation.
RECOMMENDED: Find out what exactly is making the noise. According to the source if it is beyond economic repair and main block related then try a thicker multigrade. If you are already using a 40 try a 10/60 race oil, BUT if you have oil leaks and are already using a 40 grade, it just might be necessary to reduce the leaks by adding a can of stop leak made by a major oil company.
PROBLEM: OIL LEAKS BEYOND ECONOMIC REPAIR. / SNAKE OIL: Various stop leaks.
RESULTS: Increased oil seal wear if they are too effective, reduction in lubrication efficiency and if it is one not made by a major oil company possible add pack chemical reactions.
RECOMMENDED: Try moving up to the next approved grade (20 to 30 etc) and if that fails switch to an HM oil. Buy a drip pan.
PROBLEM: High oil consumption. / SNAKE OIL: Various stop leaks, performance enhancers and even thickners.
RESULTS: Depends on the exact additive, but temporary at best as good seal conditioners can be expensive. Solvent based snake oils make the problem worse.
RECOMMENDED: Read the maintenance manual as it might be a crank vent problem, try to identify the cause, if it is beyond economic repair then move up to the next approved grade and if that does not reduce the oil consumption switch to a major brand HM oil.
PROBLEM: SLUDGE or VARNISH. / SNAKE OIL: Various solvent and thin oil additives.
RESULTS: Not too bad in big block non turbo engines if the oil pump filter screen does not get blocked. A true horror story for modern engines and a significant cause of blown turbos and serious oil leaks.
RECOMMENDED: READ THE ENGINE MAINTENANCE MANUAL AS THERE WILL BE A SECTION ABOUT CLEANING, for a minor case take a chance and use a major oil company at idle only flush before an oil change to an HM oil or high detergent full synthetic with a short first OCI.
PROBLEM: COLD START RATTLES / SNAKE OIL: Various types.
RESULTS: Just gambling and the results might be temporary at best and not as good as changing to a better oil and filter. Serious damage if you use the wrong product or have not identified the fault correctly.
RECOMMENDATION: Find out what is making the noise first, then use a better oil like an 0W or a different filter according to the nature of the problem. Don't guess at a solution.
PROBLEM: Terminal phase hot rattles. / SNAKE OIL: Various thickners.
RESULTS: Serious cold start problems, overheating and sludge formation.
RECOMMENDED: Find out what exactly is making the noise. According to the source if it is beyond economic repair and main block related then try a thicker multigrade. If you are already using a 40 try a 10/60 race oil, BUT if you have oil leaks and are already using a 40 grade, it just might be necessary to reduce the leaks by adding a can of stop leak made by a major oil company.
PROBLEM: OIL LEAKS BEYOND ECONOMIC REPAIR. / SNAKE OIL: Various stop leaks.
RESULTS: Increased oil seal wear if they are too effective, reduction in lubrication efficiency and if it is one not made by a major oil company possible add pack chemical reactions.
RECOMMENDED: Try moving up to the next approved grade (20 to 30 etc) and if that fails switch to an HM oil. Buy a drip pan.
PROBLEM: High oil consumption. / SNAKE OIL: Various stop leaks, performance enhancers and even thickners.
RESULTS: Depends on the exact additive, but temporary at best as good seal conditioners can be expensive. Solvent based snake oils make the problem worse.
RECOMMENDED: Read the maintenance manual as it might be a crank vent problem, try to identify the cause, if it is beyond economic repair then move up to the next approved grade and if that does not reduce the oil consumption switch to a major brand HM oil.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
And it would seem the same math leads one to conjecture that no one ADDITIVE could ever answer all the needs out there.
Then you must also remember that due to their very nature these additives will be used in many 'hopeless causes' where they will appear ineffective or harmful. Perhaps that's where Skyship lives?
As stated previously, I love anecdotal information and would support his right to post it. Just so everyone knows that....
He can copy, paste, then Preach until He$$ freezes over, he can't change my mind about what I know works, ever. I've used some of his so called snake oils since the 1970's and have proven time and time again they work in many situations where dirt or sludge is causing a problem. It beats the heck out of ripping engines apart to replace or manually clean parts. Does it work in every situation? No. Has it worked in many situations, saved money, and cured problems like ticking or sticking lifters? You bet. Still everyone has a right to an opinion, and if they have the time, and money to rip things apart that don't always need to be ripped apart, more power to them! I'm still waiting on seeing all these engines destroyed as a direct result of using Kreen or MMO. Lots of people here are waiting to see them too, or hoping to see them..............
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
And it would seem the same math leads one to conjecture that no one ADDITIVE could ever answer all the needs out there.
Then you must also remember that due to their very nature these additives will be used in many 'hopeless causes' where they will appear ineffective or harmful. Perhaps that's where Skyship lives?
As stated previously, I love anecdotal information and would support his right to post it. Just so everyone knows that....
He can copy, paste, then Preach until He$$ freezes over, he can't change my mind about what I know works, ever. I've used some of his so called snake oils since the 1970's and have proven time and time again they work in many situations where dirt or sludge is causing a problem. It beats the heck out of ripping engines apart to replace or manually clean parts. Does it work in every situation? No. Has it worked in many situations, saved money, and cured problems like ticking or sticking lifters? You bet. Still everyone has a right to an opinion, and if they have the time, and money to rip things apart that don't always need to be ripped apart, more power to them! I'm still waiting on seeing all these engines destroyed as a direct result of using Kreen or MMO. Lots of people here are waiting to see them too, or hoping to see them..............
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: skyship
Very true, but I have seen a lot of UOA results that show worse results after using an additive.
Really? I'd like to see those, do you have some links to the UOA posts?
Of course we'll need some corresponding UOA's with the same engines and oils with no additives so we can see the "worse results". Shouldn't be a problem though since you've seen a lot of them...
You've posted two pages of drivel since I posted but you haven't answered my simple direct question. Still waiting for the UOA links with "worse results" that you've "seen a lot of".
Originally Posted By: skyship
Very true, but I have seen a lot of UOA results that show worse results after using an additive.
Really? I'd like to see those, do you have some links to the UOA posts?
Of course we'll need some corresponding UOA's with the same engines and oils with no additives so we can see the "worse results". Shouldn't be a problem though since you've seen a lot of them...
You've posted two pages of drivel since I posted but you haven't answered my simple direct question. Still waiting for the UOA links with "worse results" that you've "seen a lot of".
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
And it would seem the same math leads one to conjecture that no one ADDITIVE could ever answer all the needs out there.
Then you must also remember that due to their very nature these additives will be used in many 'hopeless causes' where they will appear ineffective or harmful. Perhaps that's where Skyship lives?
As stated previously, I love anecdotal information and would support his right to post it. Just so everyone knows that....
He can copy, paste, then Preach until He$$ freezes over, he can't change my mind about what I know works, ever. I've used some of his so called snake oils since the 1970's and have proven time and time again they work in many situations where dirt or sludge is causing a problem. It beats the heck out of ripping engines apart to replace or manually clean parts. Does it work in every situation? No. Has it worked in many situations, saved money, and cured problems like ticking or sticking lifters? You bet. Still everyone has a right to an opinion, and if they have the time, and money to rip things apart that don't always need to be ripped apart, more power to them! I'm still waiting on seeing all these engines destroyed as a direct result of using Kreen or MMO. Lots of people here are waiting to see them too, or hoping to see them..............
There is no point posting pictures of failed turbos as a person who is a dedicated additives fan will just say there is another reason for the failure. You can just use Google to find the reports. What I can't understand is why an additives fan ignores good advice from an engine manufacturer about how to safely clean an engine. The only cost involved is a few gaskets as you don't have to take the engine apart. A new turbo is a lot more expensive.
The at idle flushes that are made by several oil companies will do the same as any more dangerous drive around flush, although you will need to do the job twice in a bad case. They are in effect the more modern version and because the turbo is not spinning at high revs won't do any damage, although all the dealers approvals insist you watch the oil pressure light just in case the oil pump feed screen blocks, which is fairly rare.
I will see what I can do about posting some gearbox and turbo bearing failure reports, but it will be another week before I am back at work. The causes list solvent additives (Turbo), Moly related corrosion (Gearbox) and thickner related poor oil flow (Turbo) as reasons for the failures and rejected warranty claims.
The really odd thing about turbos is most of them are designed to last as long as the engine, BUT only about half manage to succeed and the main reason is poor lubrication. Sometimes it's just bad oil or poor filtration but in the US (I worked in the US for 6 years) about a third of the failures are from debris dislodged by solvents in combination with a lowered viscosity and loss of anti wear additive properties. In Germany the situation is different as for older turbos the autobahn pee stop is the real killer, as the driver can go from full power to shutdown in 30 seconds, rather than the 2 mins required for cool down. Bad oil or filters is a close second and additives less than 10%.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, doesn't anyone get it?
Simply take the MILLIONS of cars times MILLIONS of unique personalities driving them times MILLIONS of unique usage habits and duty cycles... simple math will easily tell you that no one oil could ever meet every single person's needs.
More mindless self-aggrandizing blather won't change the numbers...
I think you, me, and a few others get it.
And it would seem the same math leads one to conjecture that no one ADDITIVE could ever answer all the needs out there.
Then you must also remember that due to their very nature these additives will be used in many 'hopeless causes' where they will appear ineffective or harmful. Perhaps that's where Skyship lives?
As stated previously, I love anecdotal information and would support his right to post it. Just so everyone knows that....
He can copy, paste, then Preach until He$$ freezes over, he can't change my mind about what I know works, ever. I've used some of his so called snake oils since the 1970's and have proven time and time again they work in many situations where dirt or sludge is causing a problem. It beats the heck out of ripping engines apart to replace or manually clean parts. Does it work in every situation? No. Has it worked in many situations, saved money, and cured problems like ticking or sticking lifters? You bet. Still everyone has a right to an opinion, and if they have the time, and money to rip things apart that don't always need to be ripped apart, more power to them! I'm still waiting on seeing all these engines destroyed as a direct result of using Kreen or MMO. Lots of people here are waiting to see them too, or hoping to see them..............
There is no point posting pictures of failed turbos as a person who is a dedicated additives fan will just say there is another reason for the failure. You can just use Google to find the reports. What I can't understand is why an additives fan ignores good advice from an engine manufacturer about how to safely clean an engine. The only cost involved is a few gaskets as you don't have to take the engine apart. A new turbo is a lot more expensive.
The at idle flushes that are made by several oil companies will do the same as any more dangerous drive around flush, although you will need to do the job twice in a bad case. They are in effect the more modern version and because the turbo is not spinning at high revs won't do any damage, although all the dealers approvals insist you watch the oil pressure light just in case the oil pump feed screen blocks, which is fairly rare.
I will see what I can do about posting some gearbox and turbo bearing failure reports, but it will be another week before I am back at work. The causes list solvent additives (Turbo), Moly related corrosion (Gearbox) and thickner related poor oil flow (Turbo) as reasons for the failures and rejected warranty claims.
The really odd thing about turbos is most of them are designed to last as long as the engine, BUT only about half manage to succeed and the main reason is poor lubrication. Sometimes it's just bad oil or poor filtration but in the US (I worked in the US for 6 years) about a third of the failures are from debris dislodged by solvents in combination with a lowered viscosity and loss of anti wear additive properties. In Germany the situation is different as for older turbos the autobahn pee stop is the real killer, as the driver can go from full power to shutdown in 30 seconds, rather than the 2 mins required for cool down. Bad oil or filters is a close second and additives less than 10%.
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