You seem to have a hang up on turbo engines, why? They make up a small percent of the Bitog population in comparison to everything else. I don't own one, probably won't ever own one, and if I did I'd read up on it.
When to use an oil additive.
- Thread starter skyship
- Start date
- Status
This thread is filled with such good information perhaps the mod gods will make it a sticky.
I'm baffled here. Skyship starts a thread like he's doing some kind of public service,then spouts off about seafoam and turbos,because all of our members have turbo diesels I guess,then spouts off about the owners manuals telling owners not to use additives,except for the approved ones of course,as he pushes ONLY using Amsoil's or liqui-moly's quick flushes.
The op has posted nothing in this thread worth reading,and I guess his spell check isn't working because he is misspelling words as he's sitting in his throne telling us don't add anything to the oil EXCEPT.......
This thread was good for a laugh anyways.
HAPPY NEW YEAR
I'm baffled here. Skyship starts a thread like he's doing some kind of public service,then spouts off about seafoam and turbos,because all of our members have turbo diesels I guess,then spouts off about the owners manuals telling owners not to use additives,except for the approved ones of course,as he pushes ONLY using Amsoil's or liqui-moly's quick flushes.
The op has posted nothing in this thread worth reading,and I guess his spell check isn't working because he is misspelling words as he's sitting in his throne telling us don't add anything to the oil EXCEPT.......
This thread was good for a laugh anyways.
HAPPY NEW YEAR
Here u go, but b for u read, yes Im a fan of Marvel Mystery Oil..
http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html
http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html
Since you won't post any UOA links to what you said you had seen, here's one I stumbled across.
Honest I wasn't even looking I was looking for Castrol specs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...032#Post2397032
It's a Honda UOA with MoS2, but wait the wear numbers are lower than the universal averages. How can that be when according to you additives cause the oil chemistry to fail? That run was over 6k, so maybe you meant the oil fails sometime after 6k?
Should I bother to look up the UOA's with consecutive runs of Rotella with and without MMO? The wear numbers with MMO were lower than without on those as well.
EDIT: Well I wanted to support what I was saying (unlike some here) and bothered to look up a Rotella UOA. You'll see the wear numbers are lower with MMO in the oil than without. Consecutive runs. Same vehicle. Rotella.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1843291
Honest I wasn't even looking I was looking for Castrol specs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...032#Post2397032
It's a Honda UOA with MoS2, but wait the wear numbers are lower than the universal averages. How can that be when according to you additives cause the oil chemistry to fail? That run was over 6k, so maybe you meant the oil fails sometime after 6k?
Should I bother to look up the UOA's with consecutive runs of Rotella with and without MMO? The wear numbers with MMO were lower than without on those as well.
EDIT: Well I wanted to support what I was saying (unlike some here) and bothered to look up a Rotella UOA. You'll see the wear numbers are lower with MMO in the oil than without. Consecutive runs. Same vehicle. Rotella.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1843291
I'm away from base using a very small screen mini laptop, so I'm having problems reading the scrreeen. What the herck is Seafoam? Some kind of ocean product.
You folks on the other side of the pond might not have moved forward to using modern turbo charged diesels, but using snake oils when you are pushing the lower boundaries of the thin oil game is in some ways more risky than playing games with the oil chemistry when you have a turbo, because if you mess up the oil the turbo will fail well before the engine in 99% of oil abuse cases. That might be expensive, but it's still a lot cheaper than a recon main block.
The only bad thing about modern turbo diesels is the silly DPF game, as it has restricted the Zinc content too much, but unless you are in a location where a DPF delete is legal and can change to using a normal diesel oil the life expectancy of the main block is going to be reduced, regardless of the spin the oil companies put on ash free oils. I hate to mention Zinc additives, but you can prove that point by adding some Zn to a DPF rated diesel oil and the wear figures fall slightly, BUT you can't keep using a Zn additive with a low Zn oil because it will foul the DPF and they are expensive.
I only ever see turbo diesels and turbo petrol cars that are involved with warranty related issues, so I must admit that I do forget that the US still has normal petrol cars. 90% of the cars in my local area are turbo diesels and the 10% are very small petrol cars like the Smart or sports cars.
The reason I spout on about snake oils, is that when you read this forum it looks like an advertising board for Seafume, Moo oil, Creen and Holyslip most days. Unfortuntely new forum members that are not auto engineers and who don't have time to do some real research then think the answer to all their engine or box problems is another can of snake oil, rather than reading the instructions. Unfortuntely rather than reading the instructions in the maintenance manual they then Google the product name and read the advertising.
If you do find yourself forced into using a snake oil due to some terminal phase problem, BUY IT FROM A REAL OIL COMPANY AND USE ONE OF THEIR OILS. That is far safer in side effect terms.
You folks on the other side of the pond might not have moved forward to using modern turbo charged diesels, but using snake oils when you are pushing the lower boundaries of the thin oil game is in some ways more risky than playing games with the oil chemistry when you have a turbo, because if you mess up the oil the turbo will fail well before the engine in 99% of oil abuse cases. That might be expensive, but it's still a lot cheaper than a recon main block.
The only bad thing about modern turbo diesels is the silly DPF game, as it has restricted the Zinc content too much, but unless you are in a location where a DPF delete is legal and can change to using a normal diesel oil the life expectancy of the main block is going to be reduced, regardless of the spin the oil companies put on ash free oils. I hate to mention Zinc additives, but you can prove that point by adding some Zn to a DPF rated diesel oil and the wear figures fall slightly, BUT you can't keep using a Zn additive with a low Zn oil because it will foul the DPF and they are expensive.
I only ever see turbo diesels and turbo petrol cars that are involved with warranty related issues, so I must admit that I do forget that the US still has normal petrol cars. 90% of the cars in my local area are turbo diesels and the 10% are very small petrol cars like the Smart or sports cars.
The reason I spout on about snake oils, is that when you read this forum it looks like an advertising board for Seafume, Moo oil, Creen and Holyslip most days. Unfortuntely new forum members that are not auto engineers and who don't have time to do some real research then think the answer to all their engine or box problems is another can of snake oil, rather than reading the instructions. Unfortuntely rather than reading the instructions in the maintenance manual they then Google the product name and read the advertising.
If you do find yourself forced into using a snake oil due to some terminal phase problem, BUY IT FROM A REAL OIL COMPANY AND USE ONE OF THEIR OILS. That is far safer in side effect terms.
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Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Since you won't post any UOA links to what you said you had seen, here's one I stumbled across.
Honest I wasn't even looking I was looking for Castrol specs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...032#Post2397032
It's a Honda UOA with MoS2, but wait the wear numbers are lower than the universal averages. How can that be when according to you additives cause the oil chemistry to fail? That run was over 6k, so maybe you meant the oil fails sometime after 6k?
Should I bother to look up the UOA's with consecutive runs of Rotella with and without MMO in a HD pickup? The wear numbers with MMO were lower than without on those as well.
No way! A fluke, it must be wrong, it can't be!!!! Snake Oil and good UOA reports can never go hand in hand, ever! LOL Happy New Year!
Since you won't post any UOA links to what you said you had seen, here's one I stumbled across.
Honest I wasn't even looking I was looking for Castrol specs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...032#Post2397032
It's a Honda UOA with MoS2, but wait the wear numbers are lower than the universal averages. How can that be when according to you additives cause the oil chemistry to fail? That run was over 6k, so maybe you meant the oil fails sometime after 6k?
Should I bother to look up the UOA's with consecutive runs of Rotella with and without MMO in a HD pickup? The wear numbers with MMO were lower than without on those as well.
No way! A fluke, it must be wrong, it can't be!!!! Snake Oil and good UOA reports can never go hand in hand, ever! LOL Happy New Year!
Demarpaint I went ahead and edited that post to include another UOA link.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Demarpaint I went ahead and edited that post to include another UOA link.
Demarpaint I went ahead and edited that post to include another UOA link.
'Anything anyone writes is an opinion, I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools that have damaged engines on a regular basis when I am working.
You didn't read my post as it was not about coolant or fuel additives, only about oil or gearbox additives. Where in the post have I recommended Liqui Moly??
I did mention that some manufacturers do have approved oil additives, so why are you repeating that?
If you buy a car with problems READ THE MANUAL not the advertising and look for a good oil, as you might need an HM oil etc. You might even need to use an at idle only flush and they are listed as maintenance procedures so don't count as snake oils. Amsoil are very anti additive, but sell an idle only pre OC flush as a maintenance product.
I have been very specific in pointing out that I use LM oils because they are cheaper than Castrol and Mobil in Germany and I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers, as it's hard to tell in virtual world. Oddly enough it's very difficult to sell snake oil to women as they read the owners manual more often than the average male, who tends to read the advertising in car magazines insted.'
Regardless whether anybody believes in using oil supplements or not, the above is a good example of something I greatly disagree with. As soon as some people encounter any resistance here to what they say, it seems the next step is to attack those who disagree with you personally instead of attacking their arguments against you. If you have to resort to personal attacks apparently you do not have any strong arguments in your favor. Can we get away from personal attacks?
Example-'I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools...'
Example-'...I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers,...'
My guess is most of the people who post here are male but I actually would not mind if we had some more female posters.
My own personal belief is that most oil supplements are junk, but there are a few I believe in. There have been a few supplements that have actually either been sold at least in the past by car manufacturers or approved by car manufacturers. And Amsoil, for example (a professional company) does sell an engine flush or a couple of engine flushes. I personally still have some faith in Lubegard products.
I would agree that a person can go a long way with a new car, truck, van or SUV engine with just good quality motor oil and reasonable oil change intervals. And using an even higher quality motor oil should help (such as maybe Mobil 1 versus whatever motor oil the dealership uses).
However, after a great many miles the engine might need some cleaning. There are various products available for that such as engine flushes and products like MMO and Kreen. Various people believe in various products. At this website people can present their evidence as to which product works best. Does that sound reasonable?
One thing I do find kind of funny is when somebody is putting down oil supplements and it turns out they use one themselves. But of course they use one that works-they don't use the oil supplements that don't work. My oil supplemtn works but your oil supplement does not.
Please, fewer personal attacks and MORE EVIDENCE that a product may actually do what it is supposed to do. Such as before and after photographs of an inside of an engine to use just one example.
You didn't read my post as it was not about coolant or fuel additives, only about oil or gearbox additives. Where in the post have I recommended Liqui Moly??
I did mention that some manufacturers do have approved oil additives, so why are you repeating that?
If you buy a car with problems READ THE MANUAL not the advertising and look for a good oil, as you might need an HM oil etc. You might even need to use an at idle only flush and they are listed as maintenance procedures so don't count as snake oils. Amsoil are very anti additive, but sell an idle only pre OC flush as a maintenance product.
I have been very specific in pointing out that I use LM oils because they are cheaper than Castrol and Mobil in Germany and I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers, as it's hard to tell in virtual world. Oddly enough it's very difficult to sell snake oil to women as they read the owners manual more often than the average male, who tends to read the advertising in car magazines insted.'
Regardless whether anybody believes in using oil supplements or not, the above is a good example of something I greatly disagree with. As soon as some people encounter any resistance here to what they say, it seems the next step is to attack those who disagree with you personally instead of attacking their arguments against you. If you have to resort to personal attacks apparently you do not have any strong arguments in your favor. Can we get away from personal attacks?
Example-'I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools...'
Example-'...I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers,...'
My guess is most of the people who post here are male but I actually would not mind if we had some more female posters.
My own personal belief is that most oil supplements are junk, but there are a few I believe in. There have been a few supplements that have actually either been sold at least in the past by car manufacturers or approved by car manufacturers. And Amsoil, for example (a professional company) does sell an engine flush or a couple of engine flushes. I personally still have some faith in Lubegard products.
I would agree that a person can go a long way with a new car, truck, van or SUV engine with just good quality motor oil and reasonable oil change intervals. And using an even higher quality motor oil should help (such as maybe Mobil 1 versus whatever motor oil the dealership uses).
However, after a great many miles the engine might need some cleaning. There are various products available for that such as engine flushes and products like MMO and Kreen. Various people believe in various products. At this website people can present their evidence as to which product works best. Does that sound reasonable?
One thing I do find kind of funny is when somebody is putting down oil supplements and it turns out they use one themselves. But of course they use one that works-they don't use the oil supplements that don't work. My oil supplemtn works but your oil supplement does not.
Please, fewer personal attacks and MORE EVIDENCE that a product may actually do what it is supposed to do. Such as before and after photographs of an inside of an engine to use just one example.
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Agree 100%.
Who says "You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts"???
Who says "You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts"???
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Since you won't post any UOA links to what you said you had seen, here's one I stumbled across.
Honest I wasn't even looking I was looking for Castrol specs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...032#Post2397032
It's a Honda UOA with MoS2, but wait the wear numbers are lower than the universal averages. How can that be when according to you additives cause the oil chemistry to fail? That run was over 6k, so maybe you meant the oil fails sometime after 6k?
Should I bother to look up the UOA's with consecutive runs of Rotella with and without MMO in a HD pickup? The wear numbers with MMO were lower than without on those as well.
No way! A fluke, it must be wrong, it can't be!!!! Snake Oil and good UOA reports can never go hand in hand, ever! LOL Happy New Year!
That is the first UOA report so all it shows is that the engine is in better than average condition. You need to alternate from not using an additive to using one several times to see if there is an effect. My own UOA's show half of the universal average figures but that has little to do with the oil type, it is just engine condition. It would be interesting to see if using a good 5/30 improved the figures.
I can now understand how easily you have believed the advertising claims if you jump to such conclusions.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Since you won't post any UOA links to what you said you had seen, here's one I stumbled across.
Honest I wasn't even looking I was looking for Castrol specs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...032#Post2397032
It's a Honda UOA with MoS2, but wait the wear numbers are lower than the universal averages. How can that be when according to you additives cause the oil chemistry to fail? That run was over 6k, so maybe you meant the oil fails sometime after 6k?
Should I bother to look up the UOA's with consecutive runs of Rotella with and without MMO in a HD pickup? The wear numbers with MMO were lower than without on those as well.
No way! A fluke, it must be wrong, it can't be!!!! Snake Oil and good UOA reports can never go hand in hand, ever! LOL Happy New Year!
That is the first UOA report so all it shows is that the engine is in better than average condition. You need to alternate from not using an additive to using one several times to see if there is an effect. My own UOA's show half of the universal average figures but that has little to do with the oil type, it is just engine condition. It would be interesting to see if using a good 5/30 improved the figures.
I can now understand how easily you have believed the advertising claims if you jump to such conclusions.
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Regarding the first one, yes a single UOA, but the oil and engine hardly disintegrated did it? In fact by your own words "it's in above average condition" and that's with an additive in the crank case. The horrors!
And I only posted the UOA because you said you had seen "a lot" of UOA's with "worse results" using additives. You still haven't posted a single link to those...
You also deleted the second link in my post showing consecutive UOA's with lower wear numbers with the MMO additive than without. Now why would you do that?
I actually don't jump to conclusions easily but what I posted flies in the face of what you said, and that is my point. You still haven't made any attempt to back up your statement about all the UOA's you'd seen, "a lot" with "worse results" using an additive.
At this point I'm convinced you can't.
I believed you were spouting opinions as facts repeatedly, told you so, asked two direct questions in two different threads which were largely ignored and still are unanswered or not responded to other than a veiled insult.
I probably could have done the same thing on about 100 things you said but I kept it simple, just two, but now we know you don't really have an answer. Which is what I initially thought but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm here to discuss, and discussions aren't much fun if everyone agrees, but you're not discussing you're just on a soapbox playing a very tired line out yet again.
So..... Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to ignore you go!
Happy New Year! Seriously...
And I only posted the UOA because you said you had seen "a lot" of UOA's with "worse results" using additives. You still haven't posted a single link to those...
You also deleted the second link in my post showing consecutive UOA's with lower wear numbers with the MMO additive than without. Now why would you do that?
I actually don't jump to conclusions easily but what I posted flies in the face of what you said, and that is my point. You still haven't made any attempt to back up your statement about all the UOA's you'd seen, "a lot" with "worse results" using an additive.
At this point I'm convinced you can't.
I believed you were spouting opinions as facts repeatedly, told you so, asked two direct questions in two different threads which were largely ignored and still are unanswered or not responded to other than a veiled insult.
I probably could have done the same thing on about 100 things you said but I kept it simple, just two, but now we know you don't really have an answer. Which is what I initially thought but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm here to discuss, and discussions aren't much fun if everyone agrees, but you're not discussing you're just on a soapbox playing a very tired line out yet again.
So..... Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to ignore you go!
Happy New Year! Seriously...
Well, to be fair, (something I haven't seen from those who think their anecdotes are beyond question.), it used to be just about all arx all the time. I've heard the stories, but I've also seen mmo/kreen shills act just like Frank Miller.
This thread is a good example of people more intent on arguing their point than educating and explaining to each other.
If you read each posters point of view, in the context they are giving it, then it usually has some merit or something you can take away from it.
That's how I've learnt a lot from BITOG. But it isn't easy. You have to read through a lot of parc before you learn something new
If you read each posters point of view, in the context they are giving it, then it usually has some merit or something you can take away from it.
That's how I've learnt a lot from BITOG. But it isn't easy. You have to read through a lot of parc before you learn something new
And btw, I wish people would stop challenging each other to provide facts. A lot of these people pluck isolated facts and then behave as if they are somehow dealing in facts while others are not. I find it extremely disingenuous.
Facts such as individual anecdotes are not hard and fast rules.
Facts like UOAs being above or below universal averages cannot be definitive evidence. Indeed they require nuanced interpretation.
On the other hand, facts to do with end results eg warranty repairs and their causation, manufacturer testing, carry far more weight as facts than anything else.
One can only interpret the importance individual cases if they have firstly understood the facts behind the macro picture and then interpreted the individual case in that context.
This might help them understand why they were an exception to the rule rather than dig their heels in and say thrir exception is the rule that nobody else agrees with
Facts such as individual anecdotes are not hard and fast rules.
Facts like UOAs being above or below universal averages cannot be definitive evidence. Indeed they require nuanced interpretation.
On the other hand, facts to do with end results eg warranty repairs and their causation, manufacturer testing, carry far more weight as facts than anything else.
One can only interpret the importance individual cases if they have firstly understood the facts behind the macro picture and then interpreted the individual case in that context.
This might help them understand why they were an exception to the rule rather than dig their heels in and say thrir exception is the rule that nobody else agrees with
Originally Posted By: Mystic
'Anything anyone writes is an opinion, I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools that have damaged engines on a regular basis when I am working.
You didn't read my post as it was not about coolant or fuel additives, only about oil or gearbox additives. Where in the post have I recommended Liqui Moly??
I did mention that some manufacturers do have approved oil additives, so why are you repeating that?
If you buy a car with problems READ THE MANUAL not the advertising and look for a good oil, as you might need an HM oil etc. You might even need to use an at idle only flush and they are listed as maintenance procedures so don't count as snake oils. Amsoil are very anti additive, but sell an idle only pre OC flush as a maintenance product.
I have been very specific in pointing out that I use LM oils because they are cheaper than Castrol and Mobil in Germany and I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers, as it's hard to tell in virtual world. Oddly enough it's very difficult to sell snake oil to women as they read the owners manual more often than the average male, who tends to read the advertising in car magazines insted.'
Regardless whether anybody believes in using oil supplements or not, the above is a good example of something I greatly disagree with. As soon as some people encounter any resistance here to what they say, it seems the next step is to attack those who disagree with you personally instead of attacking their arguments against you. If you have to resort to personal attacks apparently you do not have any strong arguments in your favor. Can we get away from personal attacks?
Example-'I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools...'
Example-'...I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers,...'
My guess is most of the people who post here are male but I actually would not mind if we had some more female posters.
My own personal belief is that most oil supplements are junk, but there are a few I believe in. There have been a few supplements that have actually either been sold at least in the past by car manufacturers or approved by car manufacturers. And Amsoil, for example (a professional company) does sell an engine flush or a couple of engine flushes. I personally still have some faith in Lubegard products.
I would agree that a person can go a long way with a new car, truck, van or SUV engine with just good quality motor oil and reasonable oil change intervals. And using an even higher quality motor oil should help (such as maybe Mobil 1 versus whatever motor oil the dealership uses).
However, after a great many miles the engine might need some cleaning. There are various products available for that such as engine flushes and products like MMO and Kreen. Various people believe in various products. At this website people can present their evidence as to which product works best. Does that sound reasonable?
One thing I do find kind of funny is when somebody is putting down oil supplements and it turns out they use one themselves. But of course they use one that works-they don't use the oil supplements that don't work. My oil supplemtn works but your oil supplement does not.
Please, fewer personal attacks and MORE EVIDENCE that a product may actually do what it is supposed to do. Such as before and after photographs of an inside of an engine to use just one example.
If you read my posts you would notice I have mentioned that any product that has a current manufacturers approval is hardly a snake oil and that there are a lot of additives used during maintenance procedures and I have pushed the boundaries to include dealer related approvals which include the "Idle only pre OCI flushes", so they also fall outside of my snake oil category. Lubriguard do hold a current approval from ZF for noise reduction only and I regard them as better than the other US box additive companies.
Even with Lubriguard or LM it is essential to read the manufacturers approval or recommendation before using one of their products and they should be regarded as something to try with a terminal phase issue only. All of the approvals say change the box oil and clean the screen filter first or use an approved flush machine to see if the problem is just poor fluid first. No one seems to read that part even in Germany and the last failed box I saw had more additives than fluid in it and was seriously dirty which had caused a solenoid to stick.
The comments about fools was not in relation to the Bitog members but about the owners of some of the cars I have to talk to when working and that was obvious from my post so you are miss quoting me there by missing off the ending.
'Anything anyone writes is an opinion, I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools that have damaged engines on a regular basis when I am working.
You didn't read my post as it was not about coolant or fuel additives, only about oil or gearbox additives. Where in the post have I recommended Liqui Moly??
I did mention that some manufacturers do have approved oil additives, so why are you repeating that?
If you buy a car with problems READ THE MANUAL not the advertising and look for a good oil, as you might need an HM oil etc. You might even need to use an at idle only flush and they are listed as maintenance procedures so don't count as snake oils. Amsoil are very anti additive, but sell an idle only pre OC flush as a maintenance product.
I have been very specific in pointing out that I use LM oils because they are cheaper than Castrol and Mobil in Germany and I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers, as it's hard to tell in virtual world. Oddly enough it's very difficult to sell snake oil to women as they read the owners manual more often than the average male, who tends to read the advertising in car magazines insted.'
Regardless whether anybody believes in using oil supplements or not, the above is a good example of something I greatly disagree with. As soon as some people encounter any resistance here to what they say, it seems the next step is to attack those who disagree with you personally instead of attacking their arguments against you. If you have to resort to personal attacks apparently you do not have any strong arguments in your favor. Can we get away from personal attacks?
Example-'I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools...'
Example-'...I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers,...'
My guess is most of the people who post here are male but I actually would not mind if we had some more female posters.
My own personal belief is that most oil supplements are junk, but there are a few I believe in. There have been a few supplements that have actually either been sold at least in the past by car manufacturers or approved by car manufacturers. And Amsoil, for example (a professional company) does sell an engine flush or a couple of engine flushes. I personally still have some faith in Lubegard products.
I would agree that a person can go a long way with a new car, truck, van or SUV engine with just good quality motor oil and reasonable oil change intervals. And using an even higher quality motor oil should help (such as maybe Mobil 1 versus whatever motor oil the dealership uses).
However, after a great many miles the engine might need some cleaning. There are various products available for that such as engine flushes and products like MMO and Kreen. Various people believe in various products. At this website people can present their evidence as to which product works best. Does that sound reasonable?
One thing I do find kind of funny is when somebody is putting down oil supplements and it turns out they use one themselves. But of course they use one that works-they don't use the oil supplements that don't work. My oil supplemtn works but your oil supplement does not.
Please, fewer personal attacks and MORE EVIDENCE that a product may actually do what it is supposed to do. Such as before and after photographs of an inside of an engine to use just one example.
If you read my posts you would notice I have mentioned that any product that has a current manufacturers approval is hardly a snake oil and that there are a lot of additives used during maintenance procedures and I have pushed the boundaries to include dealer related approvals which include the "Idle only pre OCI flushes", so they also fall outside of my snake oil category. Lubriguard do hold a current approval from ZF for noise reduction only and I regard them as better than the other US box additive companies.
Even with Lubriguard or LM it is essential to read the manufacturers approval or recommendation before using one of their products and they should be regarded as something to try with a terminal phase issue only. All of the approvals say change the box oil and clean the screen filter first or use an approved flush machine to see if the problem is just poor fluid first. No one seems to read that part even in Germany and the last failed box I saw had more additives than fluid in it and was seriously dirty which had caused a solenoid to stick.
The comments about fools was not in relation to the Bitog members but about the owners of some of the cars I have to talk to when working and that was obvious from my post so you are miss quoting me there by missing off the ending.
Not only do consumers not read instructions but here in the US, most service providers don't either. Everyone has their own opinion on everything. Added to that the fact that manufacturers do sometimes screw up and, especially in the case of the domestics, they are very corporate when it comes to profits first rather than quality as a way to achieve profits.
That's why you have an end user community on BITOG who feel they know better. It's part of the American psyche of self reliance, independence and slight paranoia about any big organization's motives plus actual experience with so called experts getting things wrong.
That's why you have an end user community on BITOG who feel they know better. It's part of the American psyche of self reliance, independence and slight paranoia about any big organization's motives plus actual experience with so called experts getting things wrong.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Regarding the first one, yes a single UOA, but the oil and engine hardly disintegrated did it? In fact by your own words "it's in above average condition" and that's with an additive in the crank case. The horrors!
And I only posted the UOA because you said you had seen "a lot" of UOA's with "worse results" using additives. You still haven't posted a single link to those...
You also deleted the second link in my post showing consecutive UOA's with lower wear numbers with the MMO additive than without. Now why would you do that?
I actually don't jump to conclusions easily but what I posted flies in the face of what you said, and that is my point. You still haven't made any attempt to back up your statement about all the UOA's you'd seen, "a lot" with "worse results" using an additive.
At this point I'm convinced you can't.
I believed you were spouting opinions as facts repeatedly, told you so, asked two direct questions in two different threads which were largely ignored and still are unanswered or not responded to other than a veiled insult.
I probably could have done the same thing on about 100 things you said but I kept it simple, just two, but now we know you don't really have an answer. Which is what I initially thought but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm here to discuss, and discussions aren't much fun if everyone agrees, but you're not discussing you're just on a soapbox playing a very tired line out yet again.
So..... Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to ignore you go!
Happy New Year! Seriously...
If you want to see Moly effects look in the UOA section for those examples where it has been added to a good quality oil not something cheap. I've read them but it will be a week before I am back in the office so I don't have the links, if you knew anything about adding too much Moly you would not need to question it's effects as they are very well documented by the VW TDI forum.
You are going rather over the top by saying I implied Moly additives were some kind of instant death, as that can only happen with solvent snake oils not the anti wear type. The corrosion and detergent failure effects of overloading the add pack of a good oil take a long time to be apparent, although the intial signs are visible in some UOA results corrosion takes several OCI's before the Fe starts to increase.
If you reply can you post the MMO thread link as I did not cut it off intentionally and have not seen that UOA. MMO was not intended as an anti wear so something very odd is happening if it improved a UOA result. If the oil was too thick I suppose that might happen.
Regarding the first one, yes a single UOA, but the oil and engine hardly disintegrated did it? In fact by your own words "it's in above average condition" and that's with an additive in the crank case. The horrors!
And I only posted the UOA because you said you had seen "a lot" of UOA's with "worse results" using additives. You still haven't posted a single link to those...
You also deleted the second link in my post showing consecutive UOA's with lower wear numbers with the MMO additive than without. Now why would you do that?
I actually don't jump to conclusions easily but what I posted flies in the face of what you said, and that is my point. You still haven't made any attempt to back up your statement about all the UOA's you'd seen, "a lot" with "worse results" using an additive.
At this point I'm convinced you can't.
I believed you were spouting opinions as facts repeatedly, told you so, asked two direct questions in two different threads which were largely ignored and still are unanswered or not responded to other than a veiled insult.
I probably could have done the same thing on about 100 things you said but I kept it simple, just two, but now we know you don't really have an answer. Which is what I initially thought but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm here to discuss, and discussions aren't much fun if everyone agrees, but you're not discussing you're just on a soapbox playing a very tired line out yet again.
So..... Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to ignore you go!
Happy New Year! Seriously...
If you want to see Moly effects look in the UOA section for those examples where it has been added to a good quality oil not something cheap. I've read them but it will be a week before I am back in the office so I don't have the links, if you knew anything about adding too much Moly you would not need to question it's effects as they are very well documented by the VW TDI forum.
You are going rather over the top by saying I implied Moly additives were some kind of instant death, as that can only happen with solvent snake oils not the anti wear type. The corrosion and detergent failure effects of overloading the add pack of a good oil take a long time to be apparent, although the intial signs are visible in some UOA results corrosion takes several OCI's before the Fe starts to increase.
If you reply can you post the MMO thread link as I did not cut it off intentionally and have not seen that UOA. MMO was not intended as an anti wear so something very odd is happening if it improved a UOA result. If the oil was too thick I suppose that might happen.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: skyship
MMO was not intended as an anti wear so something very odd is happening if it improved a UOA result. If the oil was too thick I suppose that might happen.
In the event you haven't seen this, MMO has some anti-wear properties, nothing odd was going on. What's odd is you don't want to believe that the product works and has some value for people looking to clean up an engine that is dirty via lousy engineering, or neglect.
I've posted this before, borrowed from another happy MMO user.
70% Light Aromatic Oil (Pale Oil)
- It is a Naphthenic Oil, so while it oxidizes faster than a Paraffinic oil, it does clean and dissolve sludge and carbon well and cleans up after itself from any oxidation. serves as base oil as well. [Naphthenic oils have more solvency and are more polar (they are attracted to metal more), but oxidize faster.
29% Mineral Spirits
- Cleans Varnish very well. General cleaner. Also acts as an antioxidant.
38 parts per million (ppm) Boron
- AW/EP agent, friction reducer, antioxidant
900 ppm Phosporous
- AW/EP agent
1/2% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
1/4% 1, 4 para-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
Oil of wintergreen - for the scent
- Not just for the cent, is also a cleaner. may aid lubricity.
Red Dye - for the color
- well this one just colors the stuff
MMO was not intended as an anti wear so something very odd is happening if it improved a UOA result. If the oil was too thick I suppose that might happen.
In the event you haven't seen this, MMO has some anti-wear properties, nothing odd was going on. What's odd is you don't want to believe that the product works and has some value for people looking to clean up an engine that is dirty via lousy engineering, or neglect.
I've posted this before, borrowed from another happy MMO user.
70% Light Aromatic Oil (Pale Oil)
- It is a Naphthenic Oil, so while it oxidizes faster than a Paraffinic oil, it does clean and dissolve sludge and carbon well and cleans up after itself from any oxidation. serves as base oil as well. [Naphthenic oils have more solvency and are more polar (they are attracted to metal more), but oxidize faster.
29% Mineral Spirits
- Cleans Varnish very well. General cleaner. Also acts as an antioxidant.
38 parts per million (ppm) Boron
- AW/EP agent, friction reducer, antioxidant
900 ppm Phosporous
- AW/EP agent
1/2% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
1/4% 1, 4 para-Dichlorobenzene
- EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer
Oil of wintergreen - for the scent
- Not just for the cent, is also a cleaner. may aid lubricity.
Red Dye - for the color
- well this one just colors the stuff
Where do you think all the dissolved crud goes?? What do you think that crud does when you hit full power to the bearings and rings?
The idle only flushes are far safer.
The idle only flushes are far safer.
- Status