When to use an oil additive.

[skyship]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5863776-Oil-analysis-Liqui-Moly-Synthoil-Premium-5w40

That is an interesting one as it shows the effects of adding Moly to a Moly free top quality full synthetic in the second UOA down (Nickbreezy). Results in nothing in wear terms as LM tested the Moly additive with their products for increased wear factors, BUT now look at one serious jump in the insolubles from 0.1 to 0.4 (Max 0.6) after Moly use, because the additive has stopped the detergent functioning and if a longer OCI had been used it could have blocked the filter. The Analyst missed it and it warrants a warning for sludge formation, the engine is in very good condition BUT should never dump insolubles of 0.4 in only 5K miles.
LM, Castrol and Amsoil have removed Moly from their top full synthetics for very good reasons.

 

[jonny-b]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Where do you think all the dissolved crud goes?? What do you think that crud does when you hit full power to the bearings and rings?
The idle only flushes are far safer.


I would think all the dissolved crud goes into the oil filter.

Do you have any other ideas about where it goes, Skyship?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: jonny-b
Originally Posted By: skyship
Where do you think all the dissolved crud goes?? What do you think that crud does when you hit full power to the bearings and rings?
The idle only flushes are far safer.


I would think all the dissolved crud goes into the oil filter.

Do you have any other ideas about where it goes, Skyship?


An oil filter can not stop particles small enough to prevent increased bearing wear, although a full bypass system can do a better job. The risk to the turbo bearings is greatest as they only need one batch of particles to sustain damage at high RPM. To reach the filter some of the dissolved crud will pass through various bearings so the bigger particles then get stuck before they even reach the filter if they were dislodged from down stream. With a badly varnished engine the turbo feed line may already be restricted and can be blocked by sludge dissolved from top end before it reaches the filter.

 

[Mystic]

Did I misquote you with your comment about how you did say that you thought that some of the posters were females or cross dressers? That was in your post. Everybody can read it for themselves. I did not put that in your post.

And I do not think it is some kind of a put down if a poster here might actually be female. I can think of a couple of very good female mechanics who probably know more about car maintenance than a lot of guys here.

The funny thing is I agree with you to a considerable degree that people should avoid oil supplements and use good quality motor oil. But you seem to attack everybody-even somebody who agrees with you about the importance of using good quality motor oil.

But I do not totally agree with you. There are people here at this website with decades of experience using a product such as MMO. Maybe their experience might be worth something. I am at least willing to listen to what other people might have to say.

But what you might have missed in my post is that I feel we need some more civil discourse. You can't have discussions and debates with only one point of view. There can be no discussion where there are merely dictates from some 'Higher Authority' who knows everything.

I am willing to listen to what everybody has to say. Including people who use oil supplements and have a lot of experience with oil supplements. How do we learn anything without people bringing their experience and expertise to the discussions? More discussion and debate and fewer personal attacks.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Regarding the first one, yes a single UOA, but the oil and engine hardly disintegrated did it? In fact by your own words "it's in above average condition" and that's with an additive in the crank case. The horrors!

And I only posted the UOA because you said you had seen "a lot" of UOA's with "worse results" using additives. You still haven't posted a single link to those...

You also deleted the second link in my post showing consecutive UOA's with lower wear numbers with the MMO additive than without. Now why would you do that?

I actually don't jump to conclusions easily but what I posted flies in the face of what you said, and that is my point. You still haven't made any attempt to back up your statement about all the UOA's you'd seen, "a lot" with "worse results" using an additive.

At this point I'm convinced you can't.

I believed you were spouting opinions as facts repeatedly, told you so, asked two direct questions in two different threads which were largely ignored and still are unanswered or not responded to other than a veiled insult.

I probably could have done the same thing on about 100 things you said but I kept it simple, just two, but now we know you don't really have an answer. Which is what I initially thought but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm here to discuss, and discussions aren't much fun if everyone agrees, but you're not discussing you're just on a soapbox playing a very tired line out yet again.

So..... Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to ignore you go!

Happy New Year! Seriously...

Interesting. So skyship deleted evidence that contradicted his disclaimer here. Interesting indeed. So if it doesn't fit your theory then you just exclude it,like it didn't happen.
You crack me up skyship. You gotta take this show on the road and cash in while you still can. Red nose,big floppy shoes,Ronald McDonalf can be your opening act.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Where do you think all the dissolved crud goes?? What do you think that crud does when you hit full power to the bearings and rings?
The idle only flushes are far safer.

I'm guessing if its "crud" then a good filter should be able to catch it,right. And if this "crud" is too small to be caught by the filter than I doubt very much it's doing any harm to anything.
And if the "crud" agglomerates to form "crud" big enough to do possible bearing damage then I'm sure that filter will get it.
Don't all these turbo engines you have so much experience with have by-pass filtration,or is that just another practice you frown upon.
And doesn't your occupation say pilot?
Yes,I'd like fries with that.
Perhaps you've taken issue with the spirit on this side of the pond. We use additives and try to supplement oils because we know that oil companies exist to turn profit,and if that means its going to be at the expense of less expensive anti-wear agents or cheaper/less effective forms of them then you can bet your bottom dollar they will use the cheaper alternative.
You see skykite we,on this side of the pond,know that oil manufacturers make oils only as good as the have to,using just enough additives to keep the engine running for a decided number of hours.
. So if you think for even a moment that these oil companies have the consumers best interests in mind when they formulate oils you've lost your marbles on landing and they've washed away to sea.
They make oil just good enough to keep a motor working,not to keep it in perfect running order. I'm sure they have a back room where they've got oil formula's that will keep engines running forever and never need to be changed(with proper filtration of course)but that isn't good for the industry nor their bottom line.
So yes planecrash,we buy additives and use them with some success and some not so successful attempts but the point is we know better than to think big oil cares about us,and our engines.
They formulate oil to be good enough,adequate,not stellar. So you go on and keep believing in the "crud" you keep spouting,but I figured I should point out that no one is listening.
This thread that was meant to inform has become a thrashing,and your credibility is nil. So yes this thread will show up in a google search and the person who did the search will be just as confused as he was when he asked the question however what will stick out in his mind is that hang glider or skyship or whatever his name was,is a muppet(good one "eh")
Perhaps there is another oil forum on the web you can teach all the vast knowledge you've got locked away up there because most here have you on ignore,and will toggle just to throw a shot at ya.
I suspect you don't care,since I'm sure you spend most of the day talking,and no one is listening,so this forum is in effect like your life. Anonymous,ignored
Happy New Year,I'll toggle you next year

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Did I misquote you with your comment about how you did say that you thought that some of the posters were females or cross dressers? That was in your post. Everybody can read it for themselves. I did not put that in your post.

And I do not think it is some kind of a put down if a poster here might actually be female. I can think of a couple of very good female mechanics who probably know more about car maintenance than a lot of guys here.

The funny thing is I agree with you to a considerable degree that people should avoid oil supplements and use good quality motor oil. But you seem to attack everybody-even somebody who agrees with you about the importance of using good quality motor oil.

But I do not totally agree with you. There are people here at this website with decades of experience using a product such as MMO. Maybe their experience might be worth something. I am at least willing to listen to what other people might have to say.

But what you might have missed in my post is that I feel we need some more civil discourse. You can't have discussions and debates with only one point of view. There can be no discussion where there are merely dictates from some 'Higher Authority' who knows everything.

I am willing to listen to what everybody has to say. Including people who use oil supplements and have a lot of experience with oil supplements. How do we learn anything without people bringing their experience and expertise to the discussions? More discussion and debate and fewer personal attacks.


Yes you did mis quote me again as there was no insult attached to being of the female gender, just go back and read that part of my post again, in fact I pointed out that women read car manuals and men read advertising about cars more often. Oddly enough women are far less likely to cause a problem with their new Porsch turbo than male owners by adding something very silly to the engine oil just because their father used the product or it cleaned out a tractor or big block for them once.
My comments and opinions are exactly the same as any senior auto R&D engineer with a general knowledge of engine life expectancy or bearing wear analysis will state about the current oil additives in use. I probably should have pointed out that most of the more serious damage and failures are turbo related, as nearly every good car seems to have a turbo fitted in Germany unless it is something small just used for shopping trips.
One thing that additive users don't seem to understand is that the latest series of high tech G4 synthetic oils from the majors have in common is a lack of tollerance to snake oil use, how anyone can think that adding some very cheap chemicals that don't even use a synthetic base stock can improve on such a good quality oil is beyond my comprehension. I don't like to see a good engine damaged by stupidity or ignorance and the situation for Merc, BMW and Porsch in the US in terms of damaged engines under warranty is not good and nearly all the failures are caused by using the wrong oil, filter or snake oil abuse. Unfortunately some of the wrong oil incidents are caused by the dealers and I am stunned to see some recommend or use cheaper part synthetics that are not approved in the EU and find themselves forced into using thin oils. Luckily if you change the oil of a VW more often it does not matter much what you use and thin oils are OK for a few years unless you use the car hard with a big right boot, heavy towing or ignore speed limits to push oil temps higher than those from pottering along at 65 mph.
Let us all hope for a safe and prosperous new year and in your new year resolutions I hope you all included READ THE ENGINE OR CAR MANUAL, NOT THE SNAKE OIL ADVERTISING. One good thing about the Germans is they do take advice or follow instructions far better than folks from other countries and when some report of a failed box or engine lands on my desk it almost always involved a car in Germany, Switzerland or Austria that did not belong to a local in about the 10% of snake oil incidents.
PS: Don't use any non OEM oil filters in a German car under extended warranty and it is one good idea to use an oil from Castrol, Mobil, Shell or Liqui Moly. Valvoline and Amsoil are OK, but forget the rest as they are just not reliable in terms of how good the oil is, back specing or quality control.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Where do you think all the dissolved crud goes?? What do you think that crud does when you hit full power to the bearings and rings?
The idle only flushes are far safer.


The junk gets deposited into the filter since it is slowly removed. Where would you think it goes? Idle only flushes in theory breaks the garbage down quickly, and if anything would be more of a problem! MMO and Kreen have been around long before you, if they were causing engines to blow we'd have heard of it by now. You're swinging for the stars and missing, big time!

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: skyship
Where do you think all the dissolved crud goes?? What do you think that crud does when you hit full power to the bearings and rings?
The idle only flushes are far safer.

I'm guessing if its "crud" then a good filter should be able to catch it,right. And if this "crud" is too small to be caught by the filter than I doubt very much it's doing any harm to anything.
And if the "crud" agglomerates to form "crud" big enough to do possible bearing damage then I'm sure that filter will get it.
Don't all these turbo engines you have so much experience with have by-pass filtration,or is that just another practice you frown upon.
And doesn't your occupation say pilot?
Yes,I'd like fries with that.
Perhaps you've taken issue with the spirit on this side of the pond. We use additives and try to supplement oils because we know that oil companies exist to turn profit,and if that means its going to be at the expense of less expensive anti-wear agents or cheaper/less effective forms of them then you can bet your bottom dollar they will use the cheaper alternative.
You see skykite we,on this side of the pond,know that oil manufacturers make oils only as good as the have to,using just enough additives to keep the engine running for a decided number of hours.
. So if you think for even a moment that these oil companies have the consumers best interests in mind when they formulate oils you've lost your marbles on landing and they've washed away to sea.
They make oil just good enough to keep a motor working,not to keep it in perfect running order. I'm sure they have a back room where they've got oil formula's that will keep engines running forever and never need to be changed(with proper filtration of course)but that isn't good for the industry nor their bottom line.
So yes planecrash,we buy additives and use them with some success and some not so successful attempts but the point is we know better than to think big oil cares about us,and our engines.
They formulate oil to be good enough,adequate,not stellar. So you go on and keep believing in the "crud" you keep spouting,but I figured I should point out that no one is listening.
This thread that was meant to inform has become a thrashing,and your credibility is nil. So yes this thread will show up in a google search and the person who did the search will be just as confused as he was when he asked the question however what will stick out in his mind is that hang glider or skyship or whatever his name was,is a muppet(good one "eh")
Perhaps there is another oil forum on the web you can teach all the vast knowledge you've got locked away up there because most here have you on ignore,and will toggle just to throw a shot at ya.
I suspect you don't care,since I'm sure you spend most of the day talking,and no one is listening,so this forum is in effect like your life. Anonymous,ignored
Happy New Year,I'll toggle you next year



I fly a Volvo down German autobahns faster than a light aircraft some nights! If I wrote my true rather than previous part time job in the US, folks will send me silly messages about warranty problems where they caused the failure. I'm stuck baby sitting for a while at present.
Your slur against the oil majors is a real bad one, as they try very hard to produce the best top of the range oils and gain approvals from German car manufacturers who because of either high performance hot running turbos or very long OCI's need real good oils, not some supermarket special good for a 3K mile OCI. Although I use LM oil, Castrol are winning the approvals race in the EU and I think Mobil might be ahead in the US, as lower cost is more of a concern for GM and Ford etc.

 

[SteveSRT8]

zzzzzzZZZZZzzz...snort! What? This is still going on?

Geez, Happy New Year! zzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzz....

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
Where do you think all the dissolved crud goes?? What do you think that crud does when you hit full power to the bearings and rings?
The idle only flushes are far safer.


The junk gets deposited into the filter since it is slowly removed. Where would you think it goes? Idle only flushes in theory breaks the garbage down quickly, and if anything would be more of a problem! MMO and Kreen have been around long before you, if they were causing engines to blow we'd have heard of it by now. You're swinging for the stars and missing, big time!


Basic filters only stop big particles and although they protect the main block fairly well they don't do such a good job of protecting the much more sensitive turbo bearings IF they are spinning at the biblical speeds that are normal for a good turbo. If you put solvents into a badly sludged engine the filter blocks and the pressure relief or bypass valve opens anyway. With most blown turbos caused by snake oil abuse the filter is full of crud.
If you use an at idle flush even if the filter blocks it does not matter and the turbo is hardly turning. After 10 or 15 mins at idle you dump the old oil and fill with new oil and fit a new filter, the Merc classic cars dealer approval says do it twice before the final fill and filter change. I have never known an idle flush cause a problem other than a few increased oil leak rates that are common when you clean an engine with defective seals.
If you ignore the very sound adsvice in the maintenance manual or software and don't clean the worst of the crud out of the sump in particular whilst cleaning the oil pump feed screen you are gambling with your engines life to throw in solvents and drive around. If you have a turbo it might go bang very quickly and if you don't then assuming the oil pump feed screen does not block or the dissolved crud does not block the oil filter it will clean the engine, but nearly always results in some degree of increased wear, although the tollerances on older big blocks was greater so that will probably be OK.
No sensible company produces an oil flush product that you drive around with, only dangerous snake oil companies. You can't even sell Moo, Crane and Arsex in Germany because the insurance for an auto related retailer has them listed as dangerous solvent based products as a result of some turbo diesel runaway incidents that caused crashes, when the main turbo oil seal failed in a big way. The turbos involved were in a poor condition but the blocked oil filter was determined to have been caused by a can of kill me quick flush finished it off whilst the solvents got rid of baked on varnish sealing an old main oil seal that allowed to turbo to suck in engine oil causing the diesel to over rev and fail in a dramatic manner. See you tube for more info.

 

[demarpaint]

Turbo hangup again? Seems that's all you got left.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: skyship

With most blown turbos caused by snake oil abuse the filter is full of crud.
I have never known an idle flush cause a problem other than a few increased oil leak rates that are common when you clean an engine with defective seals.
If you have a turbo it might go bang very quickly...
No sensible company produces an oil flush product that you drive around with, only dangerous snake oil companies. See you tube for more info.


Just a few examples of heresay and allegory. None are substantiated in any way, just presented as facts.

Sorry, but this dog can't hunt!

 

[Trav]

You keep ranting on about LM and Amsoil idle flushes. Why not talk about the one that is used more than any other in German garages and dealerships and BTW has approvals.
We have been using this for more than 12 years without issue.

Its difficult to get in the US but in Germany and England its very common as its made in Manchester UK.
Its certainly easier to get that bloody amsoil in Germany. Maybe you have no idea whats really being used in German garages.

Their fuel system clean is high in PEA also, it easily on par with BG 44K or Redline.

https://www.protecfuelsaver.com/engine-flush

I have watched you praise Lm as a fast pre OC flush but what about their premium sludge and engine cleaner? They say to drive the car.
Quote:
ÖL-SCHLAMMSPÜLUNG
Befreit den Motor von Schwarzschlamm.
Reinigt Ölsiebe und
Ölbohrungen. Vor jedem Ölwechsel
zu geben. 300 ml ausreichend
für max. 5 l Moto renöl.
100 – 300 km vor dem Ölwechsel dem Motorenöl beimischen


No proviso that it cannot be used in turbo applications. In fact it is recommended for turbo engine gas and diesel. It is also recommended the engines be driven wth this product in the oil.
Quote:
Für alle handelsüblichen Motorenöle in Benzin- und Dieselmotoren mit und ohne Dieselpartikelfilter (DPF) geeignet. Turbo- und Kat-getestet. Zugabe ca. 200 km vor dem Ölwechsel. Doseninhalt ist ausreichend für bis zu 5 l Motorenöl. Nicht geeignet für Motorräder mit Nasskupplung.
Weitere Artikel
Bezeichnung Art.-Nr. Gebinde Sprachen


You talk about this German products and that but you don't have a bloody clue.
Not even about the LM line.
I'm done, nuff said.

Happy New Year.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

. So if you think for even a moment that these oil additive companies have the consumers best interests in mind when they formulate oil additives you've lost your marbles on landing and they've washed away to sea.

Fixed what you left out.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Clevy

. So if you think for even a moment that these oil additive companies have the consumers best interests in mind when they formulate oil additives you've lost your marbles on landing and they've washed away to sea.

Fixed what you left out.


Not quite what he meant, in fact not even close. He left nothing out, and wrote exactly what he wanted to say. Unfortunately you don't agree, and decided to twist his words around to convey your POV.

 

[Mystic]

Take a look at what Trav posted above demarpaint. If Trav is correct Skyship does not even know what is being used in German garages. And if those products are so effective it would be nice if we could get them and test them in the USA (although BG44K or Redline fuel system cleaner would eliminate the need for the fuel system cleaner).

 

[Trav]

You can buy it from the link i posted but its too expensive. Its in the ARX price range

Although Protec products work as advertised.

 

[FoxS]

It's $92 for 4 treatments of the idle flush.

Trav, is this something you would recommend as regular maintenance? Can it do any harm if the system is already in good health? Their marketing suggests it should be used to allow new oil to have a fresh start. However I imagine that all manufacturers know that new oil will mix with a little old oil and the oci's reflect that.

Is there an equivalent product in the US? Wynns have an engine flush that one of my local garages offers as part of their oil change.

 

[Mystic]

Thanks Trav for that information. Too bad it is not sold for a decent price in the USA.

If Skyship is such a big LM fan I am very surprised he does not know about the LM engine cleaner that is used in a car driven for a while. And if Amsoil engine flush is not readily available in Germany but he talks about that being used instead of the product you talk about I wonder about that also.

Is the LM engine cleaner effective? Is it available in the USA?