What makes you think a person like Trav, SteveSRT8, myself or many others on this board can't pick an additive with a specific purpose in mind to correct a problem? You're the only person able to do that?
When to use an oil additive.
- Thread starter skyship
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Some of us rely on our vehicles to make our income. I'm one. There are tons of us here, as well as the commuters who also depend on their car as well.
We have several trucks, both vans and pickups, and we must keep them longer than ever with the cruddy economy we live in today.
I'm sure Skyship has heavy duty gas engined trucks with over 400,000 CITY miles on them like I do that work every day. That way I can be sure his experience matches his book knowledge.
Right?
We have several trucks, both vans and pickups, and we must keep them longer than ever with the cruddy economy we live in today.
I'm sure Skyship has heavy duty gas engined trucks with over 400,000 CITY miles on them like I do that work every day. That way I can be sure his experience matches his book knowledge.
Right?
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
That way I can be sure his experience matches his book knowledge.
Right?
I guess.
That way I can be sure his experience matches his book knowledge.
Right?
I guess.
I guess so too
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Some of us rely on our vehicles to make our income. I'm one. There are tons of us here, as well as the commuters who also depend on their car as well.
We have several trucks, both vans and pickups, and we must keep them longer than ever with the cruddy economy we live in today.
I'm sure Skyship has heavy duty gas engined trucks with over 400,000 CITY miles on them like I do that work every day. That way I can be sure his experience matches his book knowledge.
Right?
Oddly enough I worked in the US mostly in connection with sport fishing boats for 6 years. The marine diesels have the same block and turbo as the big US trucks used, but are de-rated by about 25%. I did use idle flush oil additives a few times, although it was a home brew from a local chemical student, as it's easy to make.
The fishing boat skippers were real careful about OCI's and oil quality, they also had a strict routine of 30 mins at max continuous RPM every 12 hours of trolling to clean out the cylinder deposits. The only cases of real sludge were both engines that had been stored for years and had no service record and I only ran flush through them because of lumps in the old oil. The turbo blew up on one when I started it after the OCI, although I had warned the owner the feed lines needed cleaning and priming.
Some of us rely on our vehicles to make our income. I'm one. There are tons of us here, as well as the commuters who also depend on their car as well.
We have several trucks, both vans and pickups, and we must keep them longer than ever with the cruddy economy we live in today.
I'm sure Skyship has heavy duty gas engined trucks with over 400,000 CITY miles on them like I do that work every day. That way I can be sure his experience matches his book knowledge.
Right?
Oddly enough I worked in the US mostly in connection with sport fishing boats for 6 years. The marine diesels have the same block and turbo as the big US trucks used, but are de-rated by about 25%. I did use idle flush oil additives a few times, although it was a home brew from a local chemical student, as it's easy to make.
The fishing boat skippers were real careful about OCI's and oil quality, they also had a strict routine of 30 mins at max continuous RPM every 12 hours of trolling to clean out the cylinder deposits. The only cases of real sludge were both engines that had been stored for years and had no service record and I only ran flush through them because of lumps in the old oil. The turbo blew up on one when I started it after the OCI, although I had warned the owner the feed lines needed cleaning and priming.
Skyship, I appreciate your posts as I feel you are trying hard to help.
But you and I see things very differently. And I never represent my opinions as facts where you seem to blur that distinction.
But I will enjoy your anecdotal experience stories...
But you and I see things very differently. And I never represent my opinions as facts where you seem to blur that distinction.
But I will enjoy your anecdotal experience stories...
I find it funny that sunkship posts read the owners manual paying special attention to the don't use additives part,then comments that you should only use the ones he approves,even though the manual says use none,then we have members like trav with 40 years getting his hands dirty saying there is a place for them and all applications are different,then skyhigh goes off on a turbo tangent that applies to less than 10% of NA vehicles and then some unsubstantiated claims of lawsuits from a flush causing a turbo diesel to go wide open on the autobahn.
This thread has been very informative. It's shown skyship's distaste for North American citizens,his lack of knowledge of the North American auto demographic,his unsubstantiated claims of lawsuits and flushes and his superiority complex over the rest of humanity.
You attract more flies with honey than vinegar sir. I'm sure you are very smart with extensive knowledge in your field but you have absolutely no people skills. It must be very lonely at the top.
Trav
Thank you for sharing your extensive EXPERIENCE with us. It's a breath of fresh air being talked to,not talked down to.
Dermapaint,thank you for having my back and Trajan my post didn't need fixing,although I do like reading your posts at times.
And to all the other posters in this thread I do hope we all learned something here,I know what I learned had nothing to do with any additives of any kind.
This thread has been very informative. It's shown skyship's distaste for North American citizens,his lack of knowledge of the North American auto demographic,his unsubstantiated claims of lawsuits and flushes and his superiority complex over the rest of humanity.
You attract more flies with honey than vinegar sir. I'm sure you are very smart with extensive knowledge in your field but you have absolutely no people skills. It must be very lonely at the top.
Trav
Thank you for sharing your extensive EXPERIENCE with us. It's a breath of fresh air being talked to,not talked down to.
Dermapaint,thank you for having my back and Trajan my post didn't need fixing,although I do like reading your posts at times.
And to all the other posters in this thread I do hope we all learned something here,I know what I learned had nothing to do with any additives of any kind.
LAST COMMENT ON THREAD AS NO ONE HAS POSTED A SENSIBLE REPLY SO FAR. I was interested in the more modern idle flushes used in the US and if anyone has their chemical composition or VOA etc.
The odd thing is that most folks seem to use flush additives more from fear of black death than actual evidence of sludge, although when you look at what even the major dealers in the US use for approved engine oil it would concern me if I pushed the OCI out to a more sensible figure.
One last point about the cars and trucks sold in the US that are manufactured outside the US, is that the dealerships are independent companies in most cases, they often have no real legal connection to the manufacturer of the vehicles they sell. They pay for warranty claims and deal with any legal consequences and even edit the original handbooks and documents according to their wishes. That means that if you buy a vehicle in the US that was made overseas, the US company that owns the dealers is often going to use the cheapest oil and filters possible when considering his liability in warranty terms and that nearly always means a lower standard. They compensate with reduced OCI's and will be glad if your vehicle does not last much beyong the end of the warranty, so they can sell you another. Some of the parts used are in some ways designed to be too expensive to replace outside of the warranty, like self leveling shocks and turbos etc.
The US manufacturers and top quality vehicle companies do offer sensible advice and documentation, BUT they are nearly all playing the CAFE game so the grade of oil may be too thin as a result and to make matters worse the cheaper companies are using cheap dino 5/20's that might well cause long term sludge issues for those spending too much time in traffic. Almost an exact repeat of the old Audi turbo fiasco in the US, where the dealers used cheap oil but long OCI's.
I understand one of the US manufacturers has even started selling an oil additive to help offset the damage that their own thin cheap syn blend is doing to their engines. That's one great business plan I guess, although it might not occur to owners that the additive is not required if you use a better oil.
The odd thing is that most folks seem to use flush additives more from fear of black death than actual evidence of sludge, although when you look at what even the major dealers in the US use for approved engine oil it would concern me if I pushed the OCI out to a more sensible figure.
One last point about the cars and trucks sold in the US that are manufactured outside the US, is that the dealerships are independent companies in most cases, they often have no real legal connection to the manufacturer of the vehicles they sell. They pay for warranty claims and deal with any legal consequences and even edit the original handbooks and documents according to their wishes. That means that if you buy a vehicle in the US that was made overseas, the US company that owns the dealers is often going to use the cheapest oil and filters possible when considering his liability in warranty terms and that nearly always means a lower standard. They compensate with reduced OCI's and will be glad if your vehicle does not last much beyong the end of the warranty, so they can sell you another. Some of the parts used are in some ways designed to be too expensive to replace outside of the warranty, like self leveling shocks and turbos etc.
The US manufacturers and top quality vehicle companies do offer sensible advice and documentation, BUT they are nearly all playing the CAFE game so the grade of oil may be too thin as a result and to make matters worse the cheaper companies are using cheap dino 5/20's that might well cause long term sludge issues for those spending too much time in traffic. Almost an exact repeat of the old Audi turbo fiasco in the US, where the dealers used cheap oil but long OCI's.
I understand one of the US manufacturers has even started selling an oil additive to help offset the damage that their own thin cheap syn blend is doing to their engines. That's one great business plan I guess, although it might not occur to owners that the additive is not required if you use a better oil.
So in summary.. to be safe never use oil additive except idle only flush .. I can live with that
Originally Posted By: skyship
LAST COMMENT ON THREAD AS NO ONE HAS POSTED A SENSIBLE REPLY SO FAR.
How many replies have you had in this thread so far?
LAST COMMENT ON THREAD AS NO ONE HAS POSTED A SENSIBLE REPLY SO FAR.
How many replies have you had in this thread so far?
Skyship, you say that nobody has posted a sensible reply? Now you probably will not respond to what I am saying here because you said that this is your last post here. But I think several people here, such as Trav and demarpaint to name just two, have posted sensible replies.
You also said that you are against oil supplements such as drive around cleaners, but you said that you yourself put together some cleaners to use in some marine engines. True, they were not auto engines, but if you are so dedicated to using just accepted engine oils and cleaners why is it okay for you to use your own hand made cleaners in marine engines? No matter what you may think about MMO or Kreen, surely those two products are better than some hand made concoction.
And although you say you are against oil supplements, I think engine flushes can be considered a kind of motor oil supplement. And LM itself has an engine oil supplement.
In addition, what about all of the oil supplements that do exist that were developed by name brand corporations? For example, Schaeffer's used to have a supplement. So did Redline. Valvoline used to have a supplement. You seem to like LM and LM has a supplement. Ludegard has an engine oil supplement. I am not sure if GM still has an oil supplement or not.
Those are not cleaners, but they are oil supplements.
You also said that you are against oil supplements such as drive around cleaners, but you said that you yourself put together some cleaners to use in some marine engines. True, they were not auto engines, but if you are so dedicated to using just accepted engine oils and cleaners why is it okay for you to use your own hand made cleaners in marine engines? No matter what you may think about MMO or Kreen, surely those two products are better than some hand made concoction.
And although you say you are against oil supplements, I think engine flushes can be considered a kind of motor oil supplement. And LM itself has an engine oil supplement.
In addition, what about all of the oil supplements that do exist that were developed by name brand corporations? For example, Schaeffer's used to have a supplement. So did Redline. Valvoline used to have a supplement. You seem to like LM and LM has a supplement. Ludegard has an engine oil supplement. I am not sure if GM still has an oil supplement or not.
Those are not cleaners, but they are oil supplements.
Originally Posted By: kr_bitog
So in summary.. to be safe never use oil additive except idle only flush .. I can live with that
Umm! I found out today that the dealers who I said were using an idle flush are not, what they are doing is informing sludge victims that their engine needs cleaning top and bottom and if they are not interested in paying the 500 to 1000 Euro bill from the 5 to 10 hours work involved, they just inform them which shop stocks LM idle flush and then let the owner add it just outside the dealership.
That procedure is safe for them in the legal sense because if the oil pump screen blocks and the engine is damaged, or the solvents dissolve so much varnish helping old seals and gaskets function and a big leak starts, the dealer can't be held responsible.
The Iffy lube folks are using idle flush, but some of them are not worth taking action against in the legal sense, as they are often in debt and everything they have is rented or belongs to a landlord or the senior employees.
I hope to visit some chaps in a local R&D fluid analysis lab tomorrow and will ask if they know which additives in the new generation synthoils are reacting with Moly additives and causing sludge in longer OCI's. The high tech synthetic oils concerned don't contain any Moly because it does not help improve the function of their base stock and seems to react with either the detergent or dispersant additives.
I will also ask them about the effects of the lower Zinc levels of the new DPF rated oils, as some folks experimenting with Zinc additives or changing to an HDEO or classic car oil have proved that the wear metal figures reduce with the more normal levels of Zinc. I have seen no evidence that the new DPF rated oils are as good as the previous higher Zinc content oils, regardless of all the marketing spin. Unfortuntely folks that have a DPF are stuck with using such oils, as they are not cheap to replace.
So in summary.. to be safe never use oil additive except idle only flush .. I can live with that
Umm! I found out today that the dealers who I said were using an idle flush are not, what they are doing is informing sludge victims that their engine needs cleaning top and bottom and if they are not interested in paying the 500 to 1000 Euro bill from the 5 to 10 hours work involved, they just inform them which shop stocks LM idle flush and then let the owner add it just outside the dealership.
That procedure is safe for them in the legal sense because if the oil pump screen blocks and the engine is damaged, or the solvents dissolve so much varnish helping old seals and gaskets function and a big leak starts, the dealer can't be held responsible.
The Iffy lube folks are using idle flush, but some of them are not worth taking action against in the legal sense, as they are often in debt and everything they have is rented or belongs to a landlord or the senior employees.
I hope to visit some chaps in a local R&D fluid analysis lab tomorrow and will ask if they know which additives in the new generation synthoils are reacting with Moly additives and causing sludge in longer OCI's. The high tech synthetic oils concerned don't contain any Moly because it does not help improve the function of their base stock and seems to react with either the detergent or dispersant additives.
I will also ask them about the effects of the lower Zinc levels of the new DPF rated oils, as some folks experimenting with Zinc additives or changing to an HDEO or classic car oil have proved that the wear metal figures reduce with the more normal levels of Zinc. I have seen no evidence that the new DPF rated oils are as good as the previous higher Zinc content oils, regardless of all the marketing spin. Unfortuntely folks that have a DPF are stuck with using such oils, as they are not cheap to replace.
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I dont think anyone is trying to force people to use additives. So why all the anti additive propoganda in the additive section?? No one has to open the section if they dont want to. Why go trollin????
I'm just correcting a previous post as I got the wrong information about dealers using idle flushes. Also the info on the chemical interaction between Moly and the new generation synthetics is new. I had heard there was an issue before, but have now seen several UOA results showing it, with very significant jumps in the insolubles.
Oh, so now idle engine flushes are not acceptable either? And I believe the LM oil supplement has moly. So if the new high tech synthetic oils react with moly maybe people should not be using it?
Are we reaching the point where even certain additives used in motor oils are unacceptable now? There are probably a few motor oils that still use a moly additive. If things are that bad I guess we should ban all oil supplements and engine cleaners and the oil companies need to get together and decide on an additive package for motor oils that will not cause any sludging or other problems. From what you said it sounds like they need special motor oils just for classic cars.
And the dealerships and garages were actually having people add the LM flush outside of the garages so they would not have any liability?
Are we reaching the point where even certain additives used in motor oils are unacceptable now? There are probably a few motor oils that still use a moly additive. If things are that bad I guess we should ban all oil supplements and engine cleaners and the oil companies need to get together and decide on an additive package for motor oils that will not cause any sludging or other problems. From what you said it sounds like they need special motor oils just for classic cars.
And the dealerships and garages were actually having people add the LM flush outside of the garages so they would not have any liability?
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Dude I read through this whole lame [censored] thread. Your trollin.
I mean the first post...talking about all that legal jargon and what not....in the additive section.....thats like me saying you speak english good for a nazi.... its trollin plain and simple.
Have a nice day. I hope this thread is done
I mean the first post...talking about all that legal jargon and what not....in the additive section.....thats like me saying you speak english good for a nazi.... its trollin plain and simple.
Have a nice day. I hope this thread is done
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
My thoughts exactly! !!
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
My thoughts exactly! !!
Originally Posted By: Mystic
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
Awesome post, I couldn't agree more!
If people don't like additives, why are they even on this forum? Some of us do and enjoy sharing information and learning.
I can get my fill of "no additives, ever" and "oil is perfect the way it is" posts on the PCMO forum.
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
Awesome post, I couldn't agree more!
If people don't like additives, why are they even on this forum? Some of us do and enjoy sharing information and learning.
I can get my fill of "no additives, ever" and "oil is perfect the way it is" posts on the PCMO forum.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
You nailed it again buddy!
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.
I don't understand why the most extreme of these anti-oil supplement people even come to this section. It reminds me of the anti-Windows Linux and Apple people who troll a website like the Windows Supersite.
It seems to me that the purpose of the Oil Additive section is for people to discuss oil additives. It just seems to me that in this section people should be allowed to discuss oil additives.
You nailed it again buddy!
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