When I get tired of the vehicle or ~ 100,000 or 8 years.
When do you guys call it quits on vehicles.
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This is how I do the math simply, somewhat more rigorous than guessing.
Assumptions:
Investment cost of the new car today: $30k
Service life: 20 years
Investment cost/year: $1500 ($30k / 20 years)
Investment cost of new car 20 years from now (assume 2% inflation rate): $44.5k
Investment cost/year of new car 20 years from now: $2200 ($44.5k / 20 years)
If the cost to repair is <$2200 to keep the $30k current car going at the 20 year mark then it is cheaper to keep it running than to buy a new one. This assumes a lot of things like no gas mpg savings with purchasing a new one.
Assumptions:
Investment cost of the new car today: $30k
Service life: 20 years
Investment cost/year: $1500 ($30k / 20 years)
Investment cost of new car 20 years from now (assume 2% inflation rate): $44.5k
Investment cost/year of new car 20 years from now: $2200 ($44.5k / 20 years)
If the cost to repair is <$2200 to keep the $30k current car going at the 20 year mark then it is cheaper to keep it running than to buy a new one. This assumes a lot of things like no gas mpg savings with purchasing a new one.
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We keep them until such time as our needs/wants change, they are nearing the point of safety/reliability/roadworthiness issues, it's not economically smart to make repairs, or I simply no longer wish to spend the time repairing the vehicle. We maintain a substantial vehicle repair/replacement fund so it's not a problem purchasing something newer, purchasing parts, or paying to have a repair done should I choose not to do it. At this point I have no problems doing any repairs myself, although we only have normal maintenance and haven't had a major repair in 20+ years.
This is an important question. Vehicles are a big expense. A depreciating asset is never an investment.
We're a 2 car family. For a while, when my wife and I were both working and we needed 2 reliable vehicles, our plan was to buy a new one every 14 years (ie when the current main vehicle got to be 7 years old). That way we would always have a main vehicle 7 years old or less, and a second reliable vehicle. The old one would get pushed off the end. That was the plan, but things don't always work out as planned.
In practice we give away/sell/trade:
- if a family member needs a car and we are in a position to give them one of ours (or sell at nominal cost),
- when the vehicle no longer meets our needs (which could be a lack of reliability),
- when the cost of required repairs exceeds the value of the vehicle,
- when rust gets it to the extent we don't care to drive it any more (though we've made it to 18 years in a Chevy II, 13 1/2 in a Toyota, 18 1/2 in a Volvo, and 15 so far in a BMW), and
- potentially when we just want a new vehicle (though that hasn't happened yet).
We keep our cars a long time. We take good care of them. When I buy one I try to buy a good one - meaning good reliability and one I'm happy to drive, with the intention of keeping it at least 14 years.
We're a 2 car family. For a while, when my wife and I were both working and we needed 2 reliable vehicles, our plan was to buy a new one every 14 years (ie when the current main vehicle got to be 7 years old). That way we would always have a main vehicle 7 years old or less, and a second reliable vehicle. The old one would get pushed off the end. That was the plan, but things don't always work out as planned.
In practice we give away/sell/trade:
- if a family member needs a car and we are in a position to give them one of ours (or sell at nominal cost),
- when the vehicle no longer meets our needs (which could be a lack of reliability),
- when the cost of required repairs exceeds the value of the vehicle,
- when rust gets it to the extent we don't care to drive it any more (though we've made it to 18 years in a Chevy II, 13 1/2 in a Toyota, 18 1/2 in a Volvo, and 15 so far in a BMW), and
- potentially when we just want a new vehicle (though that hasn't happened yet).
We keep our cars a long time. We take good care of them. When I buy one I try to buy a good one - meaning good reliability and one I'm happy to drive, with the intention of keeping it at least 14 years.
Easy answer: decide how much you will be spending annually on another car. To calculate, use
[cost of obtaining a new car] +
[additional costs associated with the new car (insurance premium hike, registration fee hike, etc.] -
[less operating costs (fuel efficiency gains)] -
[salvage value/sales price of the car when sold] +
[monetized estimate of the marginal comfort and safety value of the new car]
Divide this number by the number of years used in the calculation above.
If the new number is less than what you estimate to spend annually on repairing your current car then buy a new one.
[cost of obtaining a new car] +
[additional costs associated with the new car (insurance premium hike, registration fee hike, etc.] -
[less operating costs (fuel efficiency gains)] -
[salvage value/sales price of the car when sold] +
[monetized estimate of the marginal comfort and safety value of the new car]
Divide this number by the number of years used in the calculation above.
If the new number is less than what you estimate to spend annually on repairing your current car then buy a new one.
All of the above is not fully accurate. I do a "cost per mile" review.
When a new vehicle of the same class approaches the cost per mile of the old one, I purchase new, and keep it a good long time.
I can always get a new car for just a few cents more per mile (about 3 to 5 cents) than my old one costs over it's lifespan.
Don't concentrate on Capital costs of a vehicle. They are only one part of a large equation. And, possibly, not the largest part either.
8000 gallons of fuel, that's what a typical family car will use over 200K miles. It was, $3+ per gallon during this time.
10 years of ins, might be well North of 10 grand.
Tires also cost you thousands. Brakes, and other repairs, thousands more.
Today, it's not unusual for a transmission job to be $4500. A head gasket job to be $2K.
There are big financial risks with older vehicles. Including the annoyance of dealing with all those repairs and breakdowns.
When a new vehicle of the same class approaches the cost per mile of the old one, I purchase new, and keep it a good long time.
I can always get a new car for just a few cents more per mile (about 3 to 5 cents) than my old one costs over it's lifespan.
Don't concentrate on Capital costs of a vehicle. They are only one part of a large equation. And, possibly, not the largest part either.
8000 gallons of fuel, that's what a typical family car will use over 200K miles. It was, $3+ per gallon during this time.
10 years of ins, might be well North of 10 grand.
Tires also cost you thousands. Brakes, and other repairs, thousands more.
Today, it's not unusual for a transmission job to be $4500. A head gasket job to be $2K.
There are big financial risks with older vehicles. Including the annoyance of dealing with all those repairs and breakdowns.
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Add to your TCO calculations differentials in applicable taxes, fees, insurance premiums for a new car. When we lived in Oz, the Gov of Socialist Friends of The Queen would rip you off, if you drive an old vehicle. Some European locales were even worse. We live in a more favourable environment here for now.
With all the premium differentials and future cost of money, based on real inflation, every month you have no loan payment you keep quite a few hundred dollars in your wallet. Just find a trusted indy mechanic, who knows Subarus.
One more thing: your wife is worth being spoiled, so go for it. [Whatever it is]
Good luck.
With all the premium differentials and future cost of money, based on real inflation, every month you have no loan payment you keep quite a few hundred dollars in your wallet. Just find a trusted indy mechanic, who knows Subarus.
One more thing: your wife is worth being spoiled, so go for it. [Whatever it is]
Good luck.
I've never bought a new car. I target low mileage cars 5-7 years old that have depreciated by approx 65-75%. Approx $1K/yr depreciation and repairs is what I consider acceptable. If lower, even better. I've had my current car for 6 years. Paid $9K for it with 22K miles...MSRP was near $40,000. So far I've spent about $2K in tires, brakes, radiator, troubleshooting, battery, fluid changes, etc. Car is probably worth $4K-$5K today. So $6K-$7K in 6 yrs is close to my target.
My last car I took to 230K miles. And it wasn't the trans or engine that cost me. But all the misc repairs. That car really should have been let go in the 120K-150K range to optimize value. For the most part you're probably spinning a roulette wheel once past the 125K-175K mile range on a 10 yr or older car. My current one is a puzzler to me because it's at 67K at 14 years old.
There's no set rule because you're dealing with highway vs. short trip miles, rusty vs. non-rusty car, your age and/or salary, etc. I can't do the repairs today like I did 10-20 years ago. In any case, you probably should get rid of the car in advance of a 20% repair bill. And engine or trans on a $5K-$10K car is a killer for most people. You won't get that back.
My last car I took to 230K miles. And it wasn't the trans or engine that cost me. But all the misc repairs. That car really should have been let go in the 120K-150K range to optimize value. For the most part you're probably spinning a roulette wheel once past the 125K-175K mile range on a 10 yr or older car. My current one is a puzzler to me because it's at 67K at 14 years old.
There's no set rule because you're dealing with highway vs. short trip miles, rusty vs. non-rusty car, your age and/or salary, etc. I can't do the repairs today like I did 10-20 years ago. In any case, you probably should get rid of the car in advance of a 20% repair bill. And engine or trans on a $5K-$10K car is a killer for most people. You won't get that back.
Cost per mile is what counts, also what is your time worth.
I have no issues fixing vehicles but my time is not unlimited or free. I have much better things to do with my time than hammer away underneath a rusty old truck.
I'll probably lease my next truck. My sheetrocker just leased a new Silverado $339 a month all in, pretty well optioned...the last 6 months I had my old truck I averaged just under $300 a month in repairs. Not counting my labor to do them.
Paying a few hundred a month to never have to mess with a vehicle isn't the worst thing in the world.
If I didn't have to have a truck I'd lease some sort of little car like a Cruze for under $200 a month and never have to pop a hood.
I have no issues fixing vehicles but my time is not unlimited or free. I have much better things to do with my time than hammer away underneath a rusty old truck.
I'll probably lease my next truck. My sheetrocker just leased a new Silverado $339 a month all in, pretty well optioned...the last 6 months I had my old truck I averaged just under $300 a month in repairs. Not counting my labor to do them.
Paying a few hundred a month to never have to mess with a vehicle isn't the worst thing in the world.
If I didn't have to have a truck I'd lease some sort of little car like a Cruze for under $200 a month and never have to pop a hood.
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Originally Posted By: madRiver
In 2014 we spent nearly $2800 on our 175k 2005 Legacy turbo wagon 5mt to get a burned valve repaired. In the process it got all sorts of maintenance (plugs,timing belt etc) done.
In 2015 we hit $600 front brakes(187k) seized caliper, pads, rotors etc and torn front axle boot($200). To get $500 in four new tires(wear item) we needed $200 in front end suspension work to align($80) the car.
2011/2012/2013 the repairs never hit $200-$500/year albeit
2016 to start
the rear brakes will need replacing including rotors likely $350. Also hatch wiring harness is partially broken and fraying (rear wiper dead) but may lead to reverse lights out needed for inspection($350 fix or $120 no guarantee patching-both difficult).
A lot of people have noted the brakes can be done at home for about $100, maybe $200 if rebuilt import calipers are involved.
I would add to that, if regular brake maintenance is involved, you can avoid many of these frozen calipers and brake jobs and wear the pads all the way down to the backing while enjoying shimmy-free braking. All I'm talking about is removing the calipers once a year and re-lubing the pins and pad contact points. Unfortunately almost no garages do this unless asked, and no one thinks to ask them. They just check the pad thickness and suggest a new brake job.
A couple of years ago I had a free oil change at the Toyota dealer, of course they do a zillion point inspection and shakedown. The service writer suggested a rear brake drum cleaning service. I said, what, hose it down with brake cleaner? Your guy pulled the drum and put it back on without bothering to do that? I'll do it myself, thank you... and I lubed it as well, which he wouldn't do after hosing all the lube off along with the brake shoe dust.
Oh yeah, I would have zero tolerance for a shop that couldn't guarantee fixing a rear wiper, harness and a couple of light bulbs. That's gravy work for them and not difficult at all, yes there is a bit of labor time tearing into it but no guarantee? Patching wires is difficult? Really? Find another shop.
In 2014 we spent nearly $2800 on our 175k 2005 Legacy turbo wagon 5mt to get a burned valve repaired. In the process it got all sorts of maintenance (plugs,timing belt etc) done.
In 2015 we hit $600 front brakes(187k) seized caliper, pads, rotors etc and torn front axle boot($200). To get $500 in four new tires(wear item) we needed $200 in front end suspension work to align($80) the car.
2011/2012/2013 the repairs never hit $200-$500/year albeit
2016 to start
A lot of people have noted the brakes can be done at home for about $100, maybe $200 if rebuilt import calipers are involved.
I would add to that, if regular brake maintenance is involved, you can avoid many of these frozen calipers and brake jobs and wear the pads all the way down to the backing while enjoying shimmy-free braking. All I'm talking about is removing the calipers once a year and re-lubing the pins and pad contact points. Unfortunately almost no garages do this unless asked, and no one thinks to ask them. They just check the pad thickness and suggest a new brake job.
A couple of years ago I had a free oil change at the Toyota dealer, of course they do a zillion point inspection and shakedown. The service writer suggested a rear brake drum cleaning service. I said, what, hose it down with brake cleaner? Your guy pulled the drum and put it back on without bothering to do that? I'll do it myself, thank you... and I lubed it as well, which he wouldn't do after hosing all the lube off along with the brake shoe dust.
Oh yeah, I would have zero tolerance for a shop that couldn't guarantee fixing a rear wiper, harness and a couple of light bulbs. That's gravy work for them and not difficult at all, yes there is a bit of labor time tearing into it but no guarantee? Patching wires is difficult? Really? Find another shop.
I'm a car enthusiast and I have no set formula or rules. I do all my own work, with the exception of a transmission rebuild, if that is required someday. Some fun cars I've sold for a profit, or came close to a break even, others I drive into the ground. I have two really high mileage beaters in use. My Accord has 383,000 miles and a 98 Cavalier with 279,000. Both have operated with very very minimal costs. I have not had to junk a car or sell it because costs were beyond the trouble, but neither the Accord or Cavalier have any real value so when there is a major failure at this point I will part them out and scrap the rest.
Usually I keep a performance car for 2-3 years. I would like to move my Cadillac to beater status and get a Z06 or maybe a GTR. I have the itch, I've had the V for 4 years because it has been such a useful and fun car.
Usually I keep a performance car for 2-3 years. I would like to move my Cadillac to beater status and get a Z06 or maybe a GTR. I have the itch, I've had the V for 4 years because it has been such a useful and fun car.
Really it comes down to is the car worth putting money into? My 2003 Mazda is starting to rust. I'm getting bubbles in a few spots. It has 190k miles on the ticker. My costs per mile are running at 12.4/mile and thats about 60 percent fuel and 40 percent maintenance and repair. The m&r is skewed because I either broke it in the first month, had a bad plantinum plug lose the pad and damage the number one cylinder, or I missed the problem when I bought it. Regardless, 2/3rds or more of my M&R money was a rebuild about 100k miles ago. Or about 3 cents a mile and falling with each mile driven.
Anyway, I have to look at how much longer the car is viable. I wouldn't drop another 3k into a major repair. But I would buy tires and brakes to take me another two years. I think today, 250k is probably doable. Once the rust sets in, or the interior is ratty and rattling, it's harder to justify putting big money into it. But a few hundred here or there that will get you another 6 months or a year is probably worth it.
I'm at the point where I ask my trusty indie mechanic if he would put more money into the ride. When he says no, it's time to move it along.
Anyway, I have to look at how much longer the car is viable. I wouldn't drop another 3k into a major repair. But I would buy tires and brakes to take me another two years. I think today, 250k is probably doable. Once the rust sets in, or the interior is ratty and rattling, it's harder to justify putting big money into it. But a few hundred here or there that will get you another 6 months or a year is probably worth it.
I'm at the point where I ask my trusty indie mechanic if he would put more money into the ride. When he says no, it's time to move it along.
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Thanks for the well thought responses. My dear hope is the recent work carries it to 250k without serious problems. It has nearly 190k and that would give me 5 years with maintenance only and occasional repair.
The 3k work the clutch was in excellent condition(OEM), turbo surprisingly excellent(4k oil changer), and motor internals excellent (changing shortblock for $2000 was an option we skipped).
My wife gets mixed reaction on owning and commuting 70 miles RT with such an a high mileage vehicle. Her peers mainly drive SUV/minivans loaded to hilt and 100k ish old. She jambs two kids and toddler in seat across back seat.
Downsides:
exhaust OEM(was patched/welded) for $40
struts OEM
rust bubble where body repair was done on wheel well due to careless parking lot accident
OEM radiator
Kids are getting bigger!
Upsides:
Paid for since brand new
She smiles every on occasions she sweeps tach to 4k+ and the mid punch boost is quite hard(STI/WRX motor).
Wagon form (rare now) is quite handy and makes more fun to drive
The 3k work the clutch was in excellent condition(OEM), turbo surprisingly excellent(4k oil changer), and motor internals excellent (changing shortblock for $2000 was an option we skipped).
My wife gets mixed reaction on owning and commuting 70 miles RT with such an a high mileage vehicle. Her peers mainly drive SUV/minivans loaded to hilt and 100k ish old. She jambs two kids and toddler in seat across back seat.
Downsides:
exhaust OEM(was patched/welded) for $40
struts OEM
rust bubble where body repair was done on wheel well due to careless parking lot accident
OEM radiator
Kids are getting bigger!
Upsides:
Paid for since brand new
She smiles every on occasions she sweeps tach to 4k+ and the mid punch boost is quite hard(STI/WRX motor).
Wagon form (rare now) is quite handy and makes more fun to drive
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
$300 monthly car payment = $3600 a year
$400 monthly car payment = $4800 a year
$500 monthly car payment = $6000 a year
If repairs remain well under a yearly car payment, I'd stick with your current car. If repairs start to total 75% or more of what a new car payment cost, I'd look at trading in the car. If it cost you $1500/yr to maintain your vehicle that equates to a $125/month car payment. Still much cheaper than a new car. Most people buy a new car when they WANT a new car, not when they NEED a new car.
I like these also but the straight "vs payment" calculation doesn't take into account your time spent repairing or waiting, nor does it take into account the chance of getting stranded somewhere. Most people in the US don't think twice of getting stranded but here in the West you could be 70 miles from anywhere in a blizzard, so there is a little less leeway in that respect.
$300 monthly car payment = $3600 a year
$400 monthly car payment = $4800 a year
$500 monthly car payment = $6000 a year
If repairs remain well under a yearly car payment, I'd stick with your current car. If repairs start to total 75% or more of what a new car payment cost, I'd look at trading in the car. If it cost you $1500/yr to maintain your vehicle that equates to a $125/month car payment. Still much cheaper than a new car. Most people buy a new car when they WANT a new car, not when they NEED a new car.
I like these also but the straight "vs payment" calculation doesn't take into account your time spent repairing or waiting, nor does it take into account the chance of getting stranded somewhere. Most people in the US don't think twice of getting stranded but here in the West you could be 70 miles from anywhere in a blizzard, so there is a little less leeway in that respect.
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If repairs got to be high and inconvenience from having the car in the shop is an issue, I would get rid of the old junk and get a new car. Life is too short to be inconvenienced in order to save a few bucks. Once the repairs get to be 3K a year, that's getting close to a car payment if you have to get a rental while yours in in the shop.
My optimal time I have learned is 200,000 miles and trade in for a cpo model of similar type. I get the absolute most out of factory parts and with a $100-150 detail get $6-8k for the trade in.
wash rinse repeat
wash rinse repeat
A day after I dropped $1200 for a cat converter and 2 new tires on the Taurus, the transmission died.
This is where I offload it for what I can.
This is where I offload it for what I can.
Originally Posted By: Doog
My optimal time I have learned is 200,000 miles and trade in for a cpo model of similar type. I get the absolute most out of factory parts and with a $100-150 detail get $6-8k for the trade in.
wash rinse repeat
That's a good way to do it. I just haven't found the self-discipline to take a car to 200K.
My optimal time I have learned is 200,000 miles and trade in for a cpo model of similar type. I get the absolute most out of factory parts and with a $100-150 detail get $6-8k for the trade in.
wash rinse repeat
That's a good way to do it. I just haven't found the self-discipline to take a car to 200K.
I hold onto most of my cars until they fall apart. I do just about all the work myself. Thank God I can afford to replace a car, it makes the decision easier.
The last time I got rid of a car the choice was easy. My 93 Aerostar ran well, but, it needed ball joints, tie rods, shocks, springs, exhaust, an oil pan, front windshield, tires, and had body rot. I got $500 from the junkyard, well worth it, but I miss it as back up work truck.
The last time I got rid of a car the choice was easy. My 93 Aerostar ran well, but, it needed ball joints, tie rods, shocks, springs, exhaust, an oil pan, front windshield, tires, and had body rot. I got $500 from the junkyard, well worth it, but I miss it as back up work truck.
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