What's everyone's favorite 0w-20 these days?

[VersysVsWhat]

My spouse's car calls for 0w-20. I've mostly either put Supertech or Kirkland of that viscosity in it (and in the last handful or so of years, 7.5k mi OCI's-the car is fairly easy on oil, she is fairly easy on oil-near perfect ride to work etc, our climate/temps are fairly easy on oil) But a few thousand miles back, I put Valvoline Restore and Protect 0w-20 in there as the car has 220k+ miles on it (figured it was about due for a good cleaning).

(I bought a bunch of Renewable Lubricant's 5w30 car oil not long ago [it was massively discounted], and after I drain the VRP, plan on putting it in there for the summer and see how it fares. It will be the first 5w-30 that I ever put in there, but I figure it should be a decently cleaning oil with the high ester, and I want to follow up on the VRP's cleaning. But I guess I shouldn't be talking about this viscosity. .

On another side note, I very recently changed her transmission fluid. Used Valvoline's full synethic hybrid copper care stuff. So far it seems to be working fine. These E-"CVT's" are reportedly very robust and easy on transmission fluid).

 

[spbonus]

Mobil 1 0w20 EP

 

[mark pruett]

It’s as if thicker wasn’t the go to everywhere in the world; especially hotter climates, until CAFE changed in the US

CAFE started in the late 70s, and xw-30 was already preferred back then. Or so said the owner's manual of my 1976 Chevy Suburban (pre-CAFE).

Gradually they coasted downward on the winter side, and then to 20 weight oils starting about 20 years ago. And yet, cars and engines last as long as ever - maybe longer despite the lower specs some choose to fixate on.

Its entirely possible, and even likely that it's as much technological advancements making it possible to run 20 weight oils as it is purely a response to fuel economy requirements.

My suspicion is that once oil tech advanced to the point where they were viable, manufacturers moved to them en masse because there are advantages to them. Higher flow, more heat dissipation, and so forth. There's a reason large commercial jet engines use roughly 20 weight oil, and it's not because of their light duty environment.

 

[kschachn]

CAFE started in the late 70s, and xw-30 was already preferred back then. Or so said the owner's manual of my 1976 Chevy Suburban (pre-CAFE).

Gradually they coasted downward on the winter side, and then to 20 weight oils starting about 20 years ago. And yet, cars and engines last as long as ever - maybe longer despite the lower specs some choose to fixate on.

Its entirely possible, and even likely that it's as much technological advancements making it possible to run 20 weight oils as it is purely a response to fuel economy requirements.

My suspicion is that once oil tech advanced to the point where they were viable, manufacturers moved to them en masse because there are advantages to them. Higher flow, more heat dissipation, and so forth. There's a reason large commercial jet engines use roughly 20 weight oil, and it's not because of their light duty environment.

Jet engine oil requirements are so far different than an ICE that this comparison is not valid nor warranted. You don’t understand that obviously and this is then related to your other misunderstandings.

The EPA regulations are clear and you can read them yourself in any certification letter regarding owner’s manual recommendation and even manufacturer promotion and supply chain requirements. They must strenuously and actively discourage the use of any grade (including winter rating) that was not used to obtain fuel economy ratings. It’s entirely about this.

Yes most engines will not incur excessive wear under most circumstances by using the recommended grade. But on the other hand, unless fuel consumption is your one, and only consideration, then there is no real technical disadvantage to a higher grade, only advantages. Engines may have design considerations that allow the engine to tolerate a thinner oil without excessive wear but that does not preclude the use of a higher grade. Thinner oils are not “better” in that regard. “Higher flow” is not an advantage. Flow is the same. And if you’re referring to a 0W rated oil being thinner at very cold temperatures then that’s the same with any 0W rated oil.

Lots of spurious and inaccurate information out there. Of course this fear about using a higher grade than recommended is exactly what the EPA letters are about. You’re doing a good job helping them to keep everyone uninformed.

 

[mark pruett]

The EPA isn't directly mandating oil weights; what they do is mandate that the recommended oil has to be the same one they did all their testing with. So no testing with 0w-8 and then recommending 5w-40 type shenanigans. Which is reasonable, IMO. It looks like manufacturers are interpreting that as "can't recommend anything other than what was used for testing", and just putting that one weight on the list. It's a matter of documentation and labeling, not engineering.

Where I'm a bit hazy about all this CAFE stuff is why if thicker weights are better, companies like Toyota still recommend 0w-20 in other countries, even when they list other options.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/cafe-conspiracy-nonsense-disproved-rip.270586/

If you look at the first post in that thread, the 2017 Turkish Toyota Hilux recommendations are for 0w-20, despite being in a non-CAFE nation, and despite them having alternatives listed.

This means what they're saying is "You can use those other weights for whatever reason (fear of change, fleet needs, distrust, etc...) if you have to, but we feel that 0w-20 is best in our vehicle."

To me, this is a pretty powerful statement that the manufacturers prefer the lighter weight oils even when CAFE isn't in play, and that the presence of other weights isn't a statement that they're preferred, but that they're merely acceptable.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

Where does the M1 Hybrid 0W-20 fall in relation to ESP? Descriptions and som discussion with extra additives to help combat the short runs, not getting to full temperature etc.

 

[kschachn]

The EPA isn't directly mandating oil weights; what they do is mandate that the recommended oil has to be the same one they did all their testing with. So no testing with 0w-8 and then recommending 5w-40 type shenanigans. Which is reasonable, IMO. It looks like manufacturers are interpreting that as "can't recommend anything other than what was used for testing", and just putting that one weight on the list. It's a matter of documentation and labeling, not engineering.

Where I'm a bit hazy about all this CAFE stuff is why if thicker weights are better, companies like Toyota still recommend 0w-20 in other countries, even when they list other options.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/cafe-conspiracy-nonsense-disproved-rip.270586/

If you look at the first post in that thread, the 2017 Turkish Toyota Hilux recommendations are for 0w-20, despite being in a non-CAFE nation, and despite them having alternatives listed.

This means what they're saying is "You can use those other weights for whatever reason (fear of change, fleet needs, distrust, etc...) if you have to, but we feel that 0w-20 is best in our vehicle."

To me, this is a pretty powerful statement that the manufacturers prefer the lighter weight oils even when CAFE isn't in play, and that the presence of other weights isn't a statement that they're preferred, but that they're merely acceptable.

You’re really trying hard on this, I’ll give you that.

Go read any of the EPA award letters I’ve posted. They are all the same in that there are specific and unambiguous prohibitions against recommending any grade not used for testing. It’s not that it’s “preferred” nor “better” nor “best”. It’s what the manufacturer used for the test and the minimum HT/HS they can recommend to avoid excessive wear.

In the end though it’s still a recommendation. It’s not tied to warranty (warranty is tied to damage), and no oil of a somewhat higher HT/HS is going to cause damage in and of itself. This is why I only use a VW 504 00 oil in my Tiguan that recommends 508 00 approval. The SAPS level is the same and I have the benefit of greater film thickness to counteract the fuel dilution in an EA888.

508 00 oil is not better for this engine. It’s acceptable since VW determined the engine could operate on a reduced HT/HS without excessive wear. But 504 00 oil is better. The amount of “better” can be debated as to whether you find it significant, but I do.

 

[kschachn]

Where does the M1 Hybrid 0W-20 fall in relation to ESP? Descriptions and som discussion with extra additives to help combat the short runs, not getting to full temperature etc.

View attachment 281923

Which approvals does that oil hold when compared to ESP? That’s the only reliable metric you can use. Random spectrographic analyses and typical values from a PDS aren’t going to give you the determination.

 

[fen]

Kschachn, Thank you for your posts that keep us from being misled by those who don't understand the facts.

 

[OVERKILL]

The EPA isn't directly mandating oil weights; what they do is mandate that the recommended oil has to be the same one they did all their testing with. So no testing with 0w-8 and then recommending 5w-40 type shenanigans. Which is reasonable, IMO. It looks like manufacturers are interpreting that as "can't recommend anything other than what was used for testing", and just putting that one weight on the list. It's a matter of documentation and labeling, not engineering.

Where I'm a bit hazy about all this CAFE stuff is why if thicker weights are better, companies like Toyota still recommend 0w-20 in other countries, even when they list other options.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/cafe-conspiracy-nonsense-disproved-rip.270586/

If you look at the first post in that thread, the 2017 Turkish Toyota Hilux recommendations are for 0w-20, despite being in a non-CAFE nation, and despite them having alternatives listed.

This means what they're saying is "You can use those other weights for whatever reason (fear of change, fleet needs, distrust, etc...) if you have to, but we feel that 0w-20 is best in our vehicle."

To me, this is a pretty powerful statement that the manufacturers prefer the lighter weight oils even when CAFE isn't in play, and that the presence of other weights isn't a statement that they're preferred, but that they're merely acceptable.

Toyota also states:

Which brings us back to why there used to be tables in the manuals and why some OEM's have changed the spec grade, like Ford with the Coyote, and why the same engine in a high performance or HD application also often specs a heavier grade.

 

[Hohn]

CAFE started in the late 70s, and xw-30 was already preferred back then. Or so said the owner's manual of my 1976 Chevy Suburban (pre-CAFE).

CAFE started in the 1970s, but the *targets* mandated by it have moved significantly over the years. So the starting date of CAFE is not especially relevant. What matters is the mandated MPG fleet average, and how it is calculated (GVWR exemptions, etc) and the effect this has on vehicle design.

There's a reason large commercial jet engines use roughly 20 weight oil, and it's not because of their light duty environment.

Yes, it's because high shaft speeds make even super thin oils have good film thicknesses. Film thickness is related to shear rate, which has two variables--shaft surface speed and viscosity. Shaft surface speed is essentially RPM times radius.

If turbine engines are using 20 weight oils at 3000rpm N1 (two spool), that's on a much larger diameter shaft than your car's engine. That means the shear rate at 3000rpm is much, much higher than a car engine would be at 6000 or even 9000rpm.

If we all ran our engines at 5000rpm or more, nobody would think a 20 weight inadequate at all. At such high speeds, film thickness is not an issue.

The reason I advocate for thicker oils is that we are often loading engines more highly at ever-lower RPM. My Accord, for example will allow you do pull 270lb-ft of torque from a 2.0 Turbo engine at only 1500rpm. Diesel-like torque rise and engine load needs diesel-like viscosity (15w40).

Contrast this with the 140 lb-ft rating of the older K20a which never peaked below 4000rpm. So a newer turbo Honda has nearly double the cylinder pressure at under half the RPM. That is a LOT higher load on oil films in both bearings and cylinder walls.

If I was running a K20a and always had to rev to make power and was driving in such a way that plenty of RPM was involved, then I'd be quite comfortable with a 0w20, although A 0w30 works effectively as well. But stringent MPG mandates are pushing taller gears and higher loads and lower and lower RPM-- that is a recipe for thicker oil to shine. Especially a low-VII oil like a 15w.

The Honda recipe works. Coming back from a recent concert 90 min away, I got 40mpg for the return trip through hilly Amish country. This is in a large sedan with a huge trunk, gobs of legroom and zero hybrid or other enhancements. It's just a modern TGDI ICE with a 10sp auto intelligently paired and calibrated.

I just think that it needs a bit more viscosity to be fully protected when in max-mpg mode (high load, low RPM).

 

[mark pruett]

CAFE started in the 1970s, but the *targets* mandated by it have moved significantly over the years. So the starting date of CAFE is not especially relevant.

The reason I used that example is that my old Suburban was pre-CAFE, and it recommends a 20 weight oil for all temperatures, including high ones. Which points out that 20 weight oils have been acceptable for a LONG time.

I was able to find a PDF with the oil recommendations- I clipped the diagram and pasted it below. It's interesting- it seems mostly concerned with the winter weight number than anything else.

 

[ltslimjim]

The reason I used that example is that my old Suburban was pre-CAFE, and it recommends a 20 weight oil for all temperatures, including high ones. Which points out that 20 weight oils have been acceptable for a LONG time.

I was able to find a PDF with the oil recommendations- I clipped the diagram and pasted it below. It's interesting- it seems mostly concerned with the winter weight number than anything else.

View attachment 281943

Yet, the implication is you can go thicker and should (don’t use 5w20) at higher temps/engine speeds; it’s even recommended to use 5w30 year round in Canada.

 

[Hohn]

The reason I used that example is that my old Suburban was pre-CAFE, and it recommends a 20 weight oil for all temperatures, including high ones. Which points out that 20 weight oils have been acceptable for a LONG time.

I was able to find a PDF with the oil recommendations- I clipped the diagram and pasted it below. It's interesting- it seems mostly concerned with the winter weight number than anything else.

View attachment 281943

I suspect they recommend thicker oils "for sustained high speed driving" because a difference of 10C or so in oil temp is basically a grade thicker or thinner in viscosity. In other words, a 40 grade at 110°C is about a 30 grade at 100°C and what a 20 grade would be at 90°C-- very roughly.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

Which approvals does that oil hold when compared to ESP? That’s the only reliable metric you can use. Random spectrographic analyses and typical values from a PDS aren’t going to give you the determination.

Not many.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

The reason I used that example is that my old Suburban was pre-CAFE, and it recommends a 20 weight oil for all temperatures, including high ones. Which points out that 20 weight oils have been acceptable for a LONG time.

I was able to find a PDF with the oil recommendations- I clipped the diagram and pasted it below. It's interesting- it seems mostly concerned with the winter weight number than anything else.

View attachment 281943

20W-20?

 

[kschachn]

20W-20?

It shows how old that chart is. Much has changed since then, including the requirements for the SAE grades.

 

[Hohn]

I think that 20w-40w has to be typo. I thought J300 topped out at 25w? I think they mean 20w-40, which seems plausible if a low or poor VII was used.

20W-20?

 

[kschachn]

Never mind.

 

[scoot]

Not many.

View attachment 281944
View attachment 281945
View attachment 281946

I use the Valvoline Hybrid which has vis of 8.8