Can you give documented, factual examples to back up this claim? Or are you just blowing smoke, to cloud the conversation?
What testing goes into the 20k Mobil Annual Protection marketing claim.
- Thread starter Zee09
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Oh no. I meant the statement. If everyone had to document their opinions (about oil) on here it wouldn't be nearly as much fun!Can you give documented, factual examples to back up this claim? Or are you just blowing smoke, to cloud the conversation?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I'm quite sure Mobil has at least one ASTM certified lab, but it's probably owned by Infineum. Valvoline of course doesn't own an additive company, so their lab has to be owned by them.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
When you develop and approve additive packages, like Mobil does, you need an ASTM certified lab. The thing is, these labs belong to the additive arm of the company (Infineum), not the blender arm. Since Valvoline doesn't develop additive packages and don't have a separate arm that does, their lab is owned by their blender arm, which is how they get away with that claim.
It's not the expense. Mobil's net income was $36 billion on $344.6 billion in revenues in 2023. This compares to $424 million in net income for Valvoline, on $1.24 billion in revenues for 2022. Mobil NET's 30x Valvoline's total revenues, buying Valvoline, whose total assets are $3.44 billion (and Saudi Aramco bought them for $2.65 billion), would be a rounding error on Mobil's balance sheet. Mobil wasted 10x that on their GTL plant they abandoned.
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I got my information from Abby someone.Can you give documented, factual examples to back up this claim? Or are you just blowing smoke, to cloud the conversation?
My money says the Mobil lab is ASTM certified
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The official name of the test is called a “Marketing Test.”
They do marketing tests to see how well it sells. If they sell well, then in a couple of months of even years they change their claim to 25k, or maybe even 30k.
But all jokes aside, it really is all marketing, because they do state to follow the manufacturers suggested oil change interval on the bottle. All engines are different, and not all engines can go 20k miles in between oil changes even with a “20k mile rated oil”. Almost no car engines can go that long because the oil capacity on car engines is not enough for 20k+ mile intervals.
They make ridiculous claims so people think it will cost less to maintain and own their vehicles. Same thing for lifetime fluids, and 10k mile oil change intervals from car manufacturers.
I work at a ford dealership and every once in a while we see vehicles with engine issues come in on a flat bed truck. Come to find out, some customers actually run the oil for 20k miles on ecoboost engines, because the oil bottle said it can be done. Some customers try to lie, but we always find out the real cause when we diagnose and take the engine apart. 99 times out of 100, the engine is sludged up real bad, and we know they didn’t change the oil on time or followed the 20k mile claim. Turbo issues, spun bearings, cam phaser issues, broken/stretched timing chains, and etc. All because of running an oil for 20k miles. Warranty does not cover it if the oil wasn’t changed! And after we fix the engine or replace the engine because of lack of oil changes, the same customers always come in for an oil change every 5k miles or religiously do their own oil changes every 5k miles or sooner.
They do marketing tests to see how well it sells. If they sell well, then in a couple of months of even years they change their claim to 25k, or maybe even 30k.
But all jokes aside, it really is all marketing, because they do state to follow the manufacturers suggested oil change interval on the bottle. All engines are different, and not all engines can go 20k miles in between oil changes even with a “20k mile rated oil”. Almost no car engines can go that long because the oil capacity on car engines is not enough for 20k+ mile intervals.
They make ridiculous claims so people think it will cost less to maintain and own their vehicles. Same thing for lifetime fluids, and 10k mile oil change intervals from car manufacturers.
I work at a ford dealership and every once in a while we see vehicles with engine issues come in on a flat bed truck. Come to find out, some customers actually run the oil for 20k miles on ecoboost engines, because the oil bottle said it can be done. Some customers try to lie, but we always find out the real cause when we diagnose and take the engine apart. 99 times out of 100, the engine is sludged up real bad, and we know they didn’t change the oil on time or followed the 20k mile claim. Turbo issues, spun bearings, cam phaser issues, broken/stretched timing chains, and etc. All because of running an oil for 20k miles. Warranty does not cover it if the oil wasn’t changed! And after we fix the engine or replace the engine because of lack of oil changes, the same customers always come in for an oil change every 5k miles or religiously do their own oil changes every 5k miles or sooner.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
I did that for the Kodak moment …
Comparing apples to apples would be comparing ExxonMobil to Aramco. I believe Aramco can compete with ExxonMobil. I didn't see their 2023 revenues reported on Wikipedia but did see 2022.
I know this is a very long time ago, but I have always found it fascinating that Mobil spent the kind of money back in 1989, to perform this test of Mobil 1. It really does seem that it was more about marketing than actually proving the product. But still cool.
www.mobil.com
Mobil 1™ history | Mobil™ Motor Oils
Mobil 1™ motor oil was introduced more than forty years ago as the first globally available fully synthetic motor oil. It remains the world’s leading synthetic motor oil brand.
www.mobil.com
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Lots of test bays ! Wonder what they have now …
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Aramco just bought Valvoline (for $2.65 billion). Valvoline has had an engine lab long before that.
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Abby Normal?
Yes I am totally aware. Do we know the numbers for the lubricant arm of exxonmobil? That would be also Apple to apples
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I think you are missing the point.
Mobil and Shell co-own Infineum, which develops and tests additive packages. This is not unlike Chevron owning Oronite, which does the same thing. When you develop and test additive packages, you need to have an ASTM certified lab.
A vertically integrated like Mobil, Shell or Chevron would be unlikely to have the lab they use for additive package development and testing owned by the lubricant division. This isn't due to expense; it's not due to financial constraints, but rather the positioning and role of the lab in the organization, which would be testing additive packages and whole lubes for more than just the lubricant arm of that company, since these majors all sell additive packages to companies like Valvoline.
Valvoline doesn't have an additive package arm, they deal with 3rd parties like Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton, Oronite...etc. So, their lab is owned by the lubricant division, since the corporate structure doesn't exist for it to be owned by an additive package development division.
Ergo, Valvoline can get away with the claim that they are the only blender with an ASTM lab due to this technicality. It's not about the cost of having an ASTM lab (the point I was responding to), Valvoline's valuation is a rounding error on the balance sheets of the majors like XOM, but rather the organizational structure of the major oil companies which doesn't pair the ownership of their ASTM certified labs with their lubricant divisions.
I really do appreciate your explanations and trying to educate me on this matter @OVERKILL. I tend to agree with most of the things you pointed out.
I'd like to also point out the following:
When you develop and test additive packages, you can also outsource all these studies to a third party. I don't think it's a requirement for additive company to own their lab (maybe it is and I'm not aware of it). In my field of research, not all the drug formulators, formulate everything in house and test in house in fact in my current company which has the abilities to do many tests in house yet, we send a lot of our studies to China and India for formulation and testing believe me or not it's much cheaper to do that. Also the current company I work for, is loaded with cash.
We can speculate many things but at the end of the day I believe money and cost savings play an important role in the overall picture.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, if we look at AMSOIL, they, not having an in-house lab, outsource to SWRI.
I don't think it's a requirement to own an ASTM certified lab to develop additive packages, you could conceivably farm it out, but you definitely need to have access to one.
Infineum appears to own one in San Antonio, mentioned in this article under Sequence IVB:
Infineum Insight | North American specification update Sept 2017
Amusing aside: Apparently the ExxonMobil Clinton site has 430 labs, lol.
You mention India, Lubrizol has recently opened a grease testing lab there:
LZ_Growth-in-India-Graphic.pdf (lubrizol.com)
Afton details their engine test abilities (all the major ASTM tests) here:
Think-Fuels,-Think-Afton.pdf (aftonchemical.com)
Also, I think it's pretty common for the majors to outsource to SWRI, Intertek and Savant for independent verification or performance claim tests for their finished products.
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