What makes fresh oil dirty under 1500 miles
- Thread starter dgsbikes
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Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Everyone here assumes that Honda engines are easy on oil, why is this particular hard? What about the Honda R18 engine in the Civic? I've seen it get dirty after 1-2k as well.
This engine shuts down 3 cylinders for economy, called VCM (Variable Cylinder Management). A lot of the suspected issues center around this mode.
The non-VCM J35 V6's are known to need a thorough cleaning of PCV, EGR and intake areas for oil intrusion and crud at about 150K miles. For the VCM version you can halve that mileage.
Besides that there have been some well-publicized camshaft failures on some of these engines. There is debate about whether it was a bad batch of soft camshafts, a combination of extended OCI and oil choice, something about the VCM, or some combination of the above. It certainly doesn't affect everyone who owns J35 VCM engines.
Everyone here assumes that Honda engines are easy on oil, why is this particular hard? What about the Honda R18 engine in the Civic? I've seen it get dirty after 1-2k as well.
This engine shuts down 3 cylinders for economy, called VCM (Variable Cylinder Management). A lot of the suspected issues center around this mode.
The non-VCM J35 V6's are known to need a thorough cleaning of PCV, EGR and intake areas for oil intrusion and crud at about 150K miles. For the VCM version you can halve that mileage.
Besides that there have been some well-publicized camshaft failures on some of these engines. There is debate about whether it was a bad batch of soft camshafts, a combination of extended OCI and oil choice, something about the VCM, or some combination of the above. It certainly doesn't affect everyone who owns J35 VCM engines.
My 2007 Odyssey with VCM also darkens new oil pretty quickly.
I believe it is somehow caused by the VCM, but have not had any problems with the engine yet. (I also run a 6 month OCI using a good synthetic like PP or M1)
I believe it is somehow caused by the VCM, but have not had any problems with the engine yet. (I also run a 6 month OCI using a good synthetic like PP or M1)
Thanks everyone!
So far, I have (not in any specific order):
1. PCV
2. Blow-By
3. Engine Air Filter
4. Unreasonably long OCIs
5. Previous oil not completely drained
6. Excessive fuel in oil
7. Bad O2 with rich mixture
8. Clogged fuel injectors based on someone mentioning injector cleaning fluid.
9. Failed oil filter, filter media.
I am eliminating 3 and 5 as I those have been reasonably addressed when I performed the work.
I will consider #4, but on a lower priority as I was not too off of the OLM. I will cut this OCI short and replace 80% into OLM and then follow OLM or 6K with synthetic, whichever is shorter at least for the next OCI.
#1 PCV is an easy fix and I already have the replacement PCV ready to be installed with next OC.
#8 is already addressed by using double dose of techron in this gas tank (plus I use 1 every 3K miles with a Gumout Concentrate every 5K)
#9. Will switch to recent stock Napa Gold instead of old 2007/8 stock P1 for the next OC.
So it's down to 2, 6 & 7 if the above doesn't improve the situation (which btw is not that bad. I probably just made it sound worse than it actually is). How can these be assessed and affirmed/eliminated conclusively?
Thanks again.
So far, I have (not in any specific order):
1. PCV
2. Blow-By
3. Engine Air Filter
4. Unreasonably long OCIs
5. Previous oil not completely drained
6. Excessive fuel in oil
7. Bad O2 with rich mixture
8. Clogged fuel injectors based on someone mentioning injector cleaning fluid.
9. Failed oil filter, filter media.
I am eliminating 3 and 5 as I those have been reasonably addressed when I performed the work.
I will consider #4, but on a lower priority as I was not too off of the OLM. I will cut this OCI short and replace 80% into OLM and then follow OLM or 6K with synthetic, whichever is shorter at least for the next OCI.
#1 PCV is an easy fix and I already have the replacement PCV ready to be installed with next OC.
#8 is already addressed by using double dose of techron in this gas tank (plus I use 1 every 3K miles with a Gumout Concentrate every 5K)
#9. Will switch to recent stock Napa Gold instead of old 2007/8 stock P1 for the next OC.
So it's down to 2, 6 & 7 if the above doesn't improve the situation (which btw is not that bad. I probably just made it sound worse than it actually is). How can these be assessed and affirmed/eliminated conclusively?
Thanks again.
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Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Thanks everyone!
So far, I have (not in any specific order):
1. PCV
2. Blow-By
3. Engine Air Filter
4. Unreasonably long OCIs
5. Previous oil not completely drained
6. Excessive fuel in oil
7. Bad O2 with rich mixture
8. Clogged fuel injectors based on someone mentioning injector cleaning fluid.
9. Failed oil filter, filter media.
I am eliminating 3 and 5 as I those have been reasonably addressed when I performed the work.
I didn't mention anything about the air filter. I said the dirt could be entering the engine at a point after the air filter if the air intake hose is not secured properly between the air cleaner box and the throttle body. Another possibility is the air could be going around the air filter unfiltered if the air filter is not sealing up against the air box properly.
Thanks everyone!
So far, I have (not in any specific order):
1. PCV
2. Blow-By
3. Engine Air Filter
4. Unreasonably long OCIs
5. Previous oil not completely drained
6. Excessive fuel in oil
7. Bad O2 with rich mixture
8. Clogged fuel injectors based on someone mentioning injector cleaning fluid.
9. Failed oil filter, filter media.
I am eliminating 3 and 5 as I those have been reasonably addressed when I performed the work.
I didn't mention anything about the air filter. I said the dirt could be entering the engine at a point after the air filter if the air intake hose is not secured properly between the air cleaner box and the throttle body. Another possibility is the air could be going around the air filter unfiltered if the air filter is not sealing up against the air box properly.
@Vikas - I do usually run the van beyond OLM at 0% + miles. There is only one OCI that I recall went beyond 7K or so. The van has always had PU 5w-20 since I think about 20K miles on the ODO and the OLM extension, if any, is a diligent call made based on how the van has been used through the OCI.
I am confused on the NO NO part though. It's not uncommon to see OCIs longer than the oil life indicator, especially on synthetics for older vehicles at least where the spec did not assume synthetic!
Or maybe I am missing the joke??
I am confused on the NO NO part though. It's not uncommon to see OCIs longer than the oil life indicator, especially on synthetics for older vehicles at least where the spec did not assume synthetic!
Or maybe I am missing the joke??
@Merkava_4: Ok! But a visual check when I replaced the engine air filter didn't show anything. All the hoses and connections are secure - Visually as well as when I compressed the hoses by hand for checking the structural integrity.
At the moment the prime suspect is PCV. I will probably do the PCV, Oil and Filter change this weekend and watch over the next 3K miles.
And based on Trav's experience and suggestions (he share some more info on one of my other older threads), I think I am going to switch to OLM 5%/6K which ever is earlier, maybe even 5K if the van doesn't see a fair amount of extended freeway driving.
At the moment the prime suspect is PCV. I will probably do the PCV, Oil and Filter change this weekend and watch over the next 3K miles.
And based on Trav's experience and suggestions (he share some more info on one of my other older threads), I think I am going to switch to OLM 5%/6K which ever is earlier, maybe even 5K if the van doesn't see a fair amount of extended freeway driving.
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Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Some oil may oxidize or just turn darker with heat faster. It's all subjective and not a cause for worry.
I'm sure you will have tons of advice of all kinds in the morning.
This is dead on. Some additives darken when exposed to heat. Dark oil is not necessarily dirty oil.
Some oil may oxidize or just turn darker with heat faster. It's all subjective and not a cause for worry.
I'm sure you will have tons of advice of all kinds in the morning.
This is dead on. Some additives darken when exposed to heat. Dark oil is not necessarily dirty oil.
Originally Posted By: salv
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Some oil may oxidize or just turn darker with heat faster. It's all subjective and not a cause for worry.
I'm sure you will have tons of advice of all kinds in the morning.
This is dead on. Some additives darken when exposed to heat. Dark oil is not necessarily dirty oil.
I agree 100%. I am just concerned about whether is the darkening of the oil on such short mileage into the OCI is indicative of an Engine condition that needs attention! So I am trying to find out all the causes for why oil could darken so quickly.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Some oil may oxidize or just turn darker with heat faster. It's all subjective and not a cause for worry.
I'm sure you will have tons of advice of all kinds in the morning.
This is dead on. Some additives darken when exposed to heat. Dark oil is not necessarily dirty oil.
I agree 100%. I am just concerned about whether is the darkening of the oil on such short mileage into the OCI is indicative of an Engine condition that needs attention! So I am trying to find out all the causes for why oil could darken so quickly.
Carbon used to go out the tail pipe, but now thanks to our environmental friends, it goes back into the engine. That's why although oil has gotten better, so has its task. Todays oil would have stayed clean forever in a 1960s car.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Thanks everyone!
So far, I have (not in any specific order):
1. PCV
2. Blow-By
3. Engine Air Filter
4. Unreasonably long OCIs
5. Previous oil not completely drained
6. Excessive fuel in oil
7. Bad O2 with rich mixture
8. Clogged fuel injectors based on someone mentioning injector cleaning fluid.
9. Failed oil filter, filter media.
I am eliminating 3 and 5 as I those have been reasonably addressed when I performed the work.
I will consider #4, but on a lower priority as I was not too off of the OLM. I will cut this OCI short and replace 80% into OLM and then follow OLM or 6K with synthetic, whichever is shorter at least for the next OCI.
#1 PCV is an easy fix and I already have the replacement PCV ready to be installed with next OC.
#8 is already addressed by using double dose of techron in this gas tank (plus I use 1 every 3K miles with a Gumout Concentrate every 5K)
#9. Will switch to recent stock Napa Gold instead of old 2007/8 stock P1 for the next OC.
So it's down to 2, 6 & 7 if the above doesn't improve the situation (which btw is not that bad. I probably just made it sound worse than it actually is). How can these be assessed and affirmed/eliminated conclusively?
Thanks again.
Points 2 and 6.
Get a used oil analysis done to try and gain some insight.
At the end of the day I think it's simply a loading up soot in the residual oil that's left on the internal walls of the castings with each successive oil change seeing as you have been running OCI's out as far a practicable.
I would suggest simply doing a flush with fresh oil over a very short OCI(< 1000 kms).
Then monitor the oil colour after that.
Thanks everyone!
So far, I have (not in any specific order):
1. PCV
2. Blow-By
3. Engine Air Filter
4. Unreasonably long OCIs
5. Previous oil not completely drained
6. Excessive fuel in oil
7. Bad O2 with rich mixture
8. Clogged fuel injectors based on someone mentioning injector cleaning fluid.
9. Failed oil filter, filter media.
I am eliminating 3 and 5 as I those have been reasonably addressed when I performed the work.
I will consider #4, but on a lower priority as I was not too off of the OLM. I will cut this OCI short and replace 80% into OLM and then follow OLM or 6K with synthetic, whichever is shorter at least for the next OCI.
#1 PCV is an easy fix and I already have the replacement PCV ready to be installed with next OC.
#8 is already addressed by using double dose of techron in this gas tank (plus I use 1 every 3K miles with a Gumout Concentrate every 5K)
#9. Will switch to recent stock Napa Gold instead of old 2007/8 stock P1 for the next OC.
So it's down to 2, 6 & 7 if the above doesn't improve the situation (which btw is not that bad. I probably just made it sound worse than it actually is). How can these be assessed and affirmed/eliminated conclusively?
Thanks again.
Points 2 and 6.
Get a used oil analysis done to try and gain some insight.
At the end of the day I think it's simply a loading up soot in the residual oil that's left on the internal walls of the castings with each successive oil change seeing as you have been running OCI's out as far a practicable.
I would suggest simply doing a flush with fresh oil over a very short OCI(< 1000 kms).
Then monitor the oil colour after that.
A UOA will not detect deposits or varnish which is the problem with these engines.
At best its a waste of money at worst it can give a false sense of security because the wear metals will most likely be low.
The OLM is in many cases as useful as a suitcase with no handle on these engines.
At best its a waste of money at worst it can give a false sense of security because the wear metals will most likely be low.
The OLM is in many cases as useful as a suitcase with no handle on these engines.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Originally Posted By: salv
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Some oil may oxidize or just turn darker with heat faster. It's all subjective and not a cause for worry.
I'm sure you will have tons of advice of all kinds in the morning.
This is dead on. Some additives darken when exposed to heat. Dark oil is not necessarily dirty oil.
I agree 100%. I am just concerned about whether is the darkening of the oil on such short mileage into the OCI is indicative of an Engine condition that needs attention! So I am trying to find out all the causes for why oil could darken so quickly.
Sounds like the majority here is saying you should be concerned. Heed their advice as they have experience with these engines. I'm more into old school V8s.
Originally Posted By: salv
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Some oil may oxidize or just turn darker with heat faster. It's all subjective and not a cause for worry.
I'm sure you will have tons of advice of all kinds in the morning.
This is dead on. Some additives darken when exposed to heat. Dark oil is not necessarily dirty oil.
I agree 100%. I am just concerned about whether is the darkening of the oil on such short mileage into the OCI is indicative of an Engine condition that needs attention! So I am trying to find out all the causes for why oil could darken so quickly.
Sounds like the majority here is saying you should be concerned. Heed their advice as they have experience with these engines. I'm more into old school V8s.
My impression is that Honda OLM are usually very long and are based upon at least semi-synthetic. I do not believe 5W20 is available in non-synthetic formula. My personal experience with Honda (2012 Acura TL 3.5) is that OLM goes to almost 9K before it reaches 15% and hence I would not be comfortable to run it for OLM+1K miles. It is spec'd for 0W20 though.
Suggestion:- buy/borrow a boroscope and peek inside front valve cover via oil filler hole and see if there is any evidence of varnish / sludge. However, the rear bank may be in worse condition and I don't see any quick way to ascertain their condition. Getting off valve covers and putting it back is at least 4 hours job for an experienced mechanic.
If you are anywhere within the driving distance of Trav, give Paul a call. He has done many V6 VCM. It is extremely disheartening to see even with a quality synthetic this engine may get the problems using reasonable OCI. If it can be fixed, he is your guy! If you have plans to keep this vehicle for many many years and many 100K's of mile, just to do the 105K maintenance (timing belt / water pump / tensioner / other belts) along with valve adjustment and while there have him evaluate / fix the VCM system and then stick with 5K OCI for next 105K miles before doing the next major maintenance. Now you are talking about four figures expense but as long as you consider that majority of it would be chalked up to early maintenance (current mileage vs scheduled 105K) you might be able to stomach it.
OOPS:- You will have to fly Paul to your state
But hopefully you might be able to find somebody in Bay Area who has done similar work.
Suggestion:- buy/borrow a boroscope and peek inside front valve cover via oil filler hole and see if there is any evidence of varnish / sludge. However, the rear bank may be in worse condition and I don't see any quick way to ascertain their condition. Getting off valve covers and putting it back is at least 4 hours job for an experienced mechanic.
If you are anywhere within the driving distance of Trav, give Paul a call. He has done many V6 VCM. It is extremely disheartening to see even with a quality synthetic this engine may get the problems using reasonable OCI. If it can be fixed, he is your guy! If you have plans to keep this vehicle for many many years and many 100K's of mile, just to do the 105K maintenance (timing belt / water pump / tensioner / other belts) along with valve adjustment and while there have him evaluate / fix the VCM system and then stick with 5K OCI for next 105K miles before doing the next major maintenance. Now you are talking about four figures expense but as long as you consider that majority of it would be chalked up to early maintenance (current mileage vs scheduled 105K) you might be able to stomach it.
OOPS:- You will have to fly Paul to your state
But hopefully you might be able to find somebody in Bay Area who has done similar work.
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Define dirty? Based on a UOA or just what you think dirty oil should kinda look like.
Facts people facts, the lab determines if the lube is contaminated.
OTOH if a lab is flagging your lube oil at only 1,500 miles than you have a serious contamination problem, ie your air filter has failed and your fuel is probably very poor.
Facts people facts, the lab determines if the lube is contaminated.
OTOH if a lab is flagging your lube oil at only 1,500 miles than you have a serious contamination problem, ie your air filter has failed and your fuel is probably very poor.
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Define dirty?
Facts people facts, the lab determines if the lube is contaminated.
Will varnish and deposits that are burned on show up in a standard $25 UOA?
I understand about dirt being ingested through the air filter and hose leaks but those are in suspension in the oil.
Fuel and coolant is not an issue with this problem.
Define dirty?
Facts people facts, the lab determines if the lube is contaminated.
Will varnish and deposits that are burned on show up in a standard $25 UOA?
I understand about dirt being ingested through the air filter and hose leaks but those are in suspension in the oil.
Fuel and coolant is not an issue with this problem.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Will varnish and deposits that are burned on show up in a standard $25 UOA?
Varnish won't show up anywhere, except some expem=nsive tests to measure remaining oxidative life (RBOT and FTIR), and some color patch colorimetry tests.
Will varnish and deposits that are burned on show up in a standard $25 UOA?
Varnish won't show up anywhere, except some expem=nsive tests to measure remaining oxidative life (RBOT and FTIR), and some color patch colorimetry tests.
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