What it's like to fly an airliner.

[edyvw]

So, onto the real question; how do they fly?

They are very similar. The 767–400, as I mentioned, can be a bit of a dog at high gross weight. At max gross, you have to fly above 250 KIAS to get the flaps up. Minimum speed flaps up, at 450,000 lbs is 255.

Fuel planning and burn are similar, but the 767-300 is a bit better on gas. It’s lighter, with about the same wing, and has about the same fuel capacity.

Rotation for liftoff is a bit more deliberate in the -400. It’s easier to hit the tail by over-rotation.

Landing is similar, though the -400 has considerably higher approach speeds, again, heavier, with a similar wing. The 767-300 is pretty easy to land decently. The -400 can be a real bear. It’s very unforgiving of any sideslip or drift and will “lurch” pretty heavily if you’re off even the slightest bit. In fact, on my very first -400 flight as an FO, about 6 years ago, the flight attendants said, “don’t worry, all the landings in this jet are terrible”. All of them said that!

And they were all stunned when I greased it on in Zurich. Honestly, I had good winds, and I had worked and worked in the sim to nail the parameters. Everyone knows that Navy pilots are all about precision, and that airplane rewards a precise approach.

I like the -400 a lot for the cockpit. It’s sweet. But the -300 flies the best of any of the 757/767 models I’ve flown. It’s more forgiving, lands at slower speeds, has better control harmony and balance. I would take that jet anywhere with complete confidence. The extra 20 KTS of landing speed, and the higher takeoff speed, in the -400 makes low visibility, wet, or slippery, or short, or high altitude runways a challenge that you just don’t have with a -300.

Thanx. Yeah from passenger perspective I like 400 over 300, especially that 777 interior, the luggage bins. Feels much roomier. But, I see obviously there are some big performance differences. From your perspective is conclusion that performance was the one that made 400 not that popular among airlines?

 

[Revving2Redline]

Im from the Air Capital and have always wanted to fly a Cessna 182 Skylane. Built in my hometown,economic and little planes have little problems. Although this looked fun too...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdY9s9kxv14

 

[Tikka]

Hi
I have flown relatively very little. Only aircraft i have any real experience as a passenger are Boeing 737-800 and 757-200.

One thing i did notice was just how noisy the 757-200 is on take off. A very loud almost whining noise. To be honest the first time i thought 'should that noise be there?'. Is that just a characteristic of that engine?

Oh i almost forgot. I have flown in a De Havilland Dragon Rapide. I suppose you would call it the 737 of the 1930s.

 

[97prizm]

Astro,
Can you elaborate on any aircraft models that you flew that might have had the self-taxi feature? I worked for a Denver Colorado airline and according to Airbus several airports including San Francisco, Tokyo etc have wires embedded in the taxiway that allow for no pilot input as the aircraft will taci to the gate its instructed.

 

[Astro14]

Thanx. Yeah from passenger perspective I like 400 over 300, especially that 777 interior, the luggage bins. Feels much roomier. But, I see obviously there are some big performance differences. From your perspective is conclusion that performance was the one that made 400 not that popular among airlines?

The performance is decent. It’s certainly better than the new 737-900, which is a real dog.

I think part of the problem was the release date. Boeing released the 767-400 in 2000-2001 (IIRC) and nobody, I mean nobody, was ordering airplanes for the next couple of years.

There is also a training issue with the flat panel vs. round dials. See my comments earlier.

 

[Astro14]

Astro,
Can you elaborate on any aircraft models that you flew that might have had the self-taxi feature? I worked for a Denver Colorado airline and according to Airbus several airports including San Francisco, Tokyo etc have wires embedded in the taxiway that allow for no pilot input as the aircraft will taci to the gate its instructed.

Honestly, I’ve never even heard of that technology and I don’t know how it would work.

The autopilot servos can operate the rudder (if it’s engaged and there is guidance to follow) and that technology is used for automatic landings in low visibility. The airplane tracks runway centerline after landing, using rudder, and following the localizer beam from the ILS. Works great.

However, the rudder only moves the nosewheel steering 6 degrees left or right. The tiller moves it nearly 90. There’s no way that amount of rudder actuation would result in being able to taxi, so it has to be something new, that I’ve not seen.

That said, in London (Heathrow) and others, the taxi centerline lights (which are green) are controlled by ground, who monitors aircraft position and movement via radar. The green lights illuminate ahead of you when you’re cleared to taxi. A transverse red bar denotes the end of taxi clearance.

So, after clearing runway, on a foggy day in London, ground says, “United XXX, follow the greens.” And you taxi along the illuminated green lights, stopping at the transverse red ones. The reds will go out and the next segment of greens illuminate when you’re cleared to continue. They take you all the way to the gate.

 

[Astro14]

Hi
I have flown relatively very little. Only aircraft i have any real experience as a passenger are Boeing 737-800 and 757-200.

One thing i did notice was just how noisy the 757-200 is on take off. A very loud almost whining noise. To be honest the first time i thought 'should that noise be there?'. Is that just a characteristic of that engine?

Oh i almost forgot. I have flown in a De Havilland Dragon Rapide. I suppose you would call it the 737 of the 1930s.

As with all airplanes, the noise level depends where you sit. It’s pretty quiet in first class. Just aft of the wing, near the engine exhaust, it’s pretty loud.

Some high bypass turbofans make what I call “buzzsaw” noise. It’s a harmonic of the RPM at which the engine is running and it makes a loud noise beyond just the escaping high pressure stream of thrust, which is more of a straight out roar.

There are a couple different engine models that came fitted to the 757. The Pratt and Whitney 2037 and the Rolls Royce RB-211. There may be others, but those are the two I’ve flown. The RB-211 makes roughly 20% more thrust than the older Pratt and the airplane is a very good performer when fitted with them, even at high gross weight.

 

[edyvw]

The performance is decent. It’s certainly better than the new 737-900, which is a real dog.

I think part of the problem was the release date. Boeing released the 767-400 in 2000-2001 (IIRC) and nobody, I mean nobody, was ordering airplanes for the next couple of years.

There is also a training issue with the flat panel vs. round dials. See my comments earlier.

Did not think of release time. Makes sense.

 

[Tikka]

Hi Astro14.
Definitely never been in first class. Just a budget airline taking a pasty white limey to get some Mediterranean sun on his back . Heck i am old enough to remember the days you could go up to the cockpit and chat with the Pilot during the flight.

'Buzz-saw' could describe it. Definitely a very distinct noise on the 757 that was not there on the 737.

Many thanks.

 

[Astro14]

My neighbor was an Naval aviator and retired as an American Airline captain andI I have posted before seeing him leave for work looking pretty good and seeing him return several days [week] and looking like he had the you know what beat out of him.. It is a brutal job. I guess it is the passion of flight. I don't know how the pilots stand up to the load.

I really like what I do. Love the airplane. Like the layovers.

But the circadian rhythm disruption is tough. My regimen includes sunlight, exercise, and melatonin along with planned sleep cycles. Even so, I’m wiped when I get home from Europe. The older I get, the tougher it becomes.

 

[john_pifer]

Hi Astro14.
Definitely never been in first class. Just a budget airline taking a pasty white limey to get some Mediterranean sun on his back . Heck i am old enough to remember the days you could go up to the cockpit and chat with the Pilot during the flight.

'Buzz-saw' could describe it. Definitely a very distinct noise on the 757 that was not there on the 737.

Many thanks.

One of the best memories I have, from when I was a child, was being allowed to sit in the pilot’s seat during a flight (don’t even remember where we were flying to), when I was about 3 or 4 years old.

This was in around 1983.

I had mentioned to my mother that I’d like to go to the cockpit. She told me to ask the flight attendant next time she walked by. Being shy, when she walked by, I clammed up. Mom asked her for me, and, after checking with the pilots, she came and got me and we walked up to the cockpit, where the Captain let me sit in his seat, and even let me “steer”.

(I’m sure the autopilot was on, haha.)

Very formative memory for me! Although I never became a pilot, that experience definitely contributed to my lifelong love of, and fascination for, all things related to airplanes and flying, and I did eventually become an A&P mechanic.

It‘s unfortunate and sad that certain bad people in the world made it impossible for boys and girls today to experience what I did.

 

[wpod]

My Mother in law was terrified about flying but she wanted to see her granddaughter in Hawaii . The Captain came out before the flight and took her into the cockpit and showed her what happened in there. Any way after the trip to Hawaii and back she was smitten . Nothing better than a plane ride after that..

 

[wpod]

Very formative memory for me! Although I never became a pilot, that experience definitely contributed to my lifelong love of, and fascination for, all things related to airplanes and flying, and I did eventually become an A&P mechanic.

I am in awe with A&P mechanics.

 

[wpod]

Astro after a month or of my neighbors retirement he took me out to lunch for doing some tractor work ,,,,, at the airport ,,,,, and he was looked better that I have seen him during the 10 years we were neighbors,, he said no jet lag !

 

[Astro14]

Astro after a month or of my neighbors retirement he took me out to lunch for doing some tractor work ,,,,, at the airport ,,,,, and he was looked better that I have seen him during the 10 years we were neighbors,, he said no jet lag !

I’ve been out of the cockpit for a while (very little flying for me right now) and it’s been great! I miss flying, but man, getting to sleep 8 hours each night? So awesome!

 

[wpod]

Still so cool being a commercial and military pilot [naval aviator even more so] as it is being in the big league.

 

[Astro14]

My Mother in law was terrified about flying but she wanted to see her granddaughter in Hawaii . The Captain came out before the flight and took her into the cockpit and showed her what happened in there. Any way after the trip to Hawaii and back she was smitten . Nothing better than a plane ride after that..

I think I’ve mentioned this in other posts, perhaps, but part of my flight attendant brief is that all visitors are welcome in the cockpit.

I’ll sit the kids (adults are welcome to, as well, but generally decline) in my seat, give them my hat, take pictures with my phone if they don’t have one, and give them a tour, answering every question.

A nervous, adult, flyer stopped by once and, during the tour, told me that her therapist recommends that she stop by the cockpit. In the cockpit that day was a combined 65 years of flight experience, both of us were prior military, both with combat experience. She was surprised how much experience we both had (United Airlines Widebody crews are all like that; a ton of experience) and she said she felt much better after chatting for a few minutes.

It’s my amateur shrink opinion that much of the fear of flying comes from ceding all control to someone else. Meeting that someone else, and discovering that they’re competent, experienced, and enjoy what they do, goes a long way towards alleviating that fear of ceding complete control.

 

[wpod]

I grew up in Millbrae California so I had lots of A&P friends that worked for UAL and others [years ago] and so many times they would bring me into the maintenance operation and I would get to see the planes being worked on and some times get to sit in the cockpits. for my job we went to cargo areas in the airport and having friends work there I was able to have lots of coffee time in 747 cockpits. My wife has on occasion brought up the cock pit visits in conversation. The cockpit is an amazing place !

 

[40w8]

Hey BITOG, the United threads keep getting shut down, but in those threads, questions have come up about what's it like to fly an airliner, or how airplanes work. As many of you know, I'm a pilot for United. Over the past 20 years with United, I've flown the 747, 757/767 and A-320. I was an instructor on the 747-400 and the 757/767

So, I would like to start a thread focused on the airplanes. Much like I did a few years ago with the F-14, here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3884297/1

Please avoid the contentious aspects of airlines that have resulted in the closing of previous threads. Stick to the airplane questions, and I'll be happy to answer.

Here's a start from this morning:

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Mentioning the 757 reminded me of a flight I was on a few years ago out of Hong Kong. This was not United but Cathay Pacific. The aircraft took off and climbed at a pretty good angle. Having flown out of there a number of times this was new to me. That 757 was like a rocket. At around 3000 feet ( not sure exactly) the captain pulled back on the throttles and we experienced the sensation of stopping in mid air. It was very noticeable and then it started to feel like the plane was falling backwards. A few passengers screamed. One young girl a couple of rows ahead of us was crying.

That sudden change in forward motion was a very weird sensation. I wonder if that maneuver was as planned or unexpected for the flight deck crew as well?


OK - I'm pretty certain that I know what happened, but the explanation is technical, so bear with me...

Depending on weight, wind, runway length, terrain, weather, noise-abatement requirements, etc. we may use full power for takeoff. If we do, in a 757, it's pretty sporty. The airplane has great thrust/weight for an airliner.

We used to do this all the time in Orange County, CA, and in fact, because it was dramatic, we were required to brief the passengers that the takeoff would be steep, followed by a substantial power reduction at level-off. And that always was dramatic. A 20 - 22 degree nose up climb followed by a nose-over level-off and big power reduction.

Hong Kong, whether the old Kai-Tek, or the new Chep Lap Kok, doesn't really have noise abatement concerns, so I don't think it was that in your experience.

The Flight Management System (FMS) on the 757/767 drives the flight director and/or autopilot as well as the autothrottles. In a full power take off with a low level level-off, the system can get pretty agressive. There are a couple of modes that manage pitch and power, one is VNAV, one is Flight Level Change, we'll skip the other.

VNAV (Vertical Navigation) manages pitch and power to comply with vertical crossing restrictions, published speed restrictions and fuel vs. time climb speeds. Pretty sophisticated interface between navigation and managing fuel. Flight Level Change is simple: full power (or idle if descending) to get to the altitude desired using a manually selected speed.

What can happen is this: as the FMS responds to the rate of climb, which is high in a full-power takeoff, it "captures" the altitude early...it's judging how quickly it can lower the nose from a steep climb, either via Flight Director guidance or using the autopilot. In a low-altitude level off, the FMS is still using V2+15 knots as its reference speed (so, a much slower speed than climb speed, call it 170 knots, or something similar on a 757), so, when it captures the altitude (meaning that elevator pitch commands will now be to maintain the altitude instead of a climb speed) in VNAV, the airplane FMS commands the autothrottles to maintain that speed.

As the airplane is leveling off, and the throttles are coming back, because it was at full power, and because it was climbing so rapidly, and because the throttles are coming back smoothly, the airplane frequently gets well ABOVE V2+15, so those throttles just keep coming smoothly back to idle to get the airplane to the commanded V2+15 speed. You get a pretty big change in pitch and power.

There's a somatogravic illusion that the airplane is falling, or decelerating...it is decelerating, but just a bit. Your inner ear is lying to you: it went from accelerated motion (takeoff, and then the climb) to steady motion, but the change feels to you like you're decelerating and now descending...you're not, but it feels that way.

Up front, it feels rough - a too-agressive correction to maintain altitude and a glitch in wanting to maintain an inappropriate speed. When the airplane levels off, we want it to keep accelerating through the flap retraction speeds, but if VNAV captures at low altitude, it wants to stay at V2+15.

So...

Experienced 757 drivers use FLCH when leveling at low altitude to prevent the glitch above. When FLCH captures the altitude, we simply dial up a manual speed selection and the power remains steady as the airplane levels off and begins to accelerate.

Pilots that come from other airplanes are used to the more sophisticated VNAV, and they tend to prefer the more automatic mode as "better" but in this case, VNAV just isn't a good choice.

In fact, our flight manual cautions that "Flight Level Change should be used for level-offs of 3,000 feet and below" - which is nearly every day in EWR...

So, full power takeoff, and a crew that elected to use VNAV - and you got a fairly uncomfortable level - off.

It's a 757 thing...

Cheers,
Astro

I just got here, and this first explanation IS WAY OFF. I've flown over to Indonesia from DFW many times the last 25 years, and most first world pilots are probably like you and know the plane.

What I've experienced on the lessor airlines especially Air Asia from Indonesia or Malaysia is that the pilots are scary as hell. I had to look up that 3000ft hand over to long distance air controller thing because what those idiots do is.......pull power back to idle, and wait......and wait......and wait....Ok, after maybe 3 minutes, the plane has slowed so much it's about to stall. On one flight out of Jakarta, I felt the plane Airbus 319 or Boeing 737 fall sideways, and I thought he was just gonna turn it back, but he caught it and kept flying straight. I've never been so scared.

 

[40w8]

So, I was still dumb enough to fly Air Asia where roundtrip was less than $100 from Jakarta or Bandung to Singapore, and the scary flying at 3k ft and idle continued. After the crash in Java sea where the pilot RESET the shorting avionics at over 40k ft during a thunderstorm, I got the signal!

Airline and SE Asians just don't get safety. The avionics had been going off at least 29 times. The maintenance guy under smooth runway conditions would RESET it, and say......"OK BOSS"! everytime. The avionic box needed to be replaced while the old shorted one went to shop. Indonesians have a funny idea of how things are fixed or whether they are safe.