What if "low tension ring" theory is all wrong?

[demarpaint]

Solid points for sake of the argument, but I’ll highlight the need for nuance and case by case basis for blanket statements as @demarpaint expounded on in their reply.

We need to 1) define reasonable interval length and 2) what actually a “premium” oil is.

We know for a fact it still happens on engines that did not extend the interval. Some engines simply have a flaw that even the best oils will need a relatively short interval.

@Glenda W. ’s well documented issue driving their Outback in severe service while keeping the interval to 5k miles on one of Valvoline’s flagship oils at the time; pre- Valvoline Restore and Protect, is one example of why the blanket statement of “there will be no issues” is simply untrue.

There is indeed a point on interval length, but it can’t be singled out as we have seen. I think the early part of the post is on the right track, and defining a true top shelf oil that resists deposit formation in the first place; boutiques or others that have this proven track record, do come into focus. For some, Valvoline’s Valvoline Restore and Protect may be perfectly adequate for those keeping the intervals to 3k in a consumption developing prone engine; whereas a boutique for 7.5k could be another approach. Again, depends on other factors, but if we’re generalizing we still must recognize the oil differences are as much a part of this reality as interval length. It really does matter the oil choice.

Of the primary factors…1) Length of interval relative to conditions, 2) high end oil used, and 3) engine temperament to developing consumption based on design flaws; as all all part of this soup.

^The owner really only controls the first 2 variables. If one owns such an engine, controlling those variables is; to both of your points, the best CoA.

All good points. I kept it short. Regarding blanket statements, over the years there were more times than I care to count that blanket statements were made or quoted. Back in the day "a conventional oil can easily go 5K miles, and synthetic 10K miles," or something along those lines. That was a favorite around here, maybe for some, not for all. Premium oil, for fear of starting a war I refrained from naming them. I might have missed or dissed a few. Common sense and some knowledge of the topic is helpful. A used oil analysis can be useful in determining an OCI but they're not Gospel. We've had members over the years with perfect used oil analysis and engine failures.

 

[ltslimjim]

All good points. I kept it short. Regarding blanket statements, over the years there were more times than I care to count that blanket statements were made or quoted. Back in the day "a conventional oil can easily go 5K miles, and synthetic 10K miles," or something along those lines. That was a favorite around here, maybe for some, not for all. Premium oil, for fear of starting a war I refrained from naming them. I might have missed or dissed a few. Common sense and some knowledge of the topic is helpful. A used oil analysis can be useful in determining an OCI but they're not Gospel. We've had members over the years with perfect used oil analysis and engine failures.

Well said. Some engines don’t seem to care what you do with them. Others are very picky and are prone to issues one must be more intentional about, and yet still can’t entirely prevent, but could mitigate.

YMMV and yes used oil analysis tell about the suitability of the oil for continued use; it does not show everything that’s going on within the engine. It’s an indicator for some things, but not all. We’d have to break down what actually matters in a used oil analysis? To your point, for years it was TBN retention. Now, it seems; especially with DI and fuel dilution, that oxidation and nitration are far more important. And, as a recent LSJR video brought up, the importance of high efficiency oil filtration is especially important to extended OCIs. There’s certainly more factors than just oil choice or interval length. It is a nuanced Q&A to determining what is optimal vs minimal approach; which is where we get into trouble believing something is “good enough” when that might not be the case at all.

 

[GI_GRIFF]

A few years, good oil, quality fuel, service the engine at a reasonable interval there will be no issues.

GREAT ADVICE @Faawrenchbndr !!

 

[OVERKILL]

“Low tension “ 20-30 years ago is different than “low tension” today. The low got lower.

Potentially, but there are lots of low tension designs currently in production that don't suffer the issues that other designs where that's being blamed as the culprit are. They've become the low hanging fruit on the blame tree when the reality is that as I noted, it's the culmination of design decisions that creates this problem, not one singular aspect, like ring tension. The HEMI has low tension rings, so does the Pentastar, neither suffer this problem. The Hurricane engine will as well, I think it's a bit early to conclude it doesn't suffer the issue, but if it doesn't, like the BMW B58 doesn't, it again points to them not being this universal harbinger of consumption and other problems that many seem to believe them to be.

 

[Mechanician]

In the Bulletin Honda released for stuck rings, these reasons are listed on page one. No mention of oil quality, or OCI.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2015/SB-10100797-9340.pdf

POSSIBLE CAUSES
Under certain specific circumstances the engine may create deposits on the oil control rings, which may lead to
increased oil consumption when all of the following conditions occur simultaneously on a regular and prolonged basis:
• The engine is cold (not warmed up to operating temperature)
• Hard acceleration while the engine is cold
• The fuel used has an unusually high concentration of particles - Honda recommends using Top Tier gas that
contains detergents to prevent deposits. For more information about Top Tier gas, go to www.toptiergas.com.
All these conditions happening at the same time is rare, but if they do, deposits may form over years of driving. If the oil
control rings begin to stick because of the deposits, the customer may subsequently complain about excessive oil
consumption

 

[ltslimjim]

In the Bulletin Honda released for stuck rings, these reasons are listed on page one. No mention of oil quality, or OCI.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2015/SB-10100797-9340.pdf

POSSIBLE CAUSES
Under certain specific circumstances the engine may create deposits on the oil control rings, which may lead to
increased oil consumption when all of the following conditions occur simultaneously on a regular and prolonged basis:
• The engine is cold (not warmed up to operating temperature)
• Hard acceleration while the engine is cold
• The fuel used has an unusually high concentration of particles - Honda recommends using Top Tier gas that
contains detergents to prevent deposits. For more information about Top Tier gas, go to www.toptiergas.com.
All these conditions happening at the same time is rare, but if they do, deposits may form over years of driving. If the oil
control rings begin to stick because of the deposits, the customer may subsequently complain about excessive oil
consumption

Nice find.

When is an engine no longer considered “cold”? Is it when the coolant temp gets close to operating temps or over a minimum temperature threshold?

Roughly 5-10mins at the start of my commute is where I’m very gentle with the throttle, but right after that it’s onto the interstate with metro traffic merges. I figure it’s warm enough by then to drive normally. Is that enough time since startup to begin raising the RPMs without restraint?

 

[Mechanician]

Nice find.

When is an engine no longer considered “cold”? Is it when the coolant temp gets close to operating temps or over a minimum temperature threshold?

Roughly 5-10mins at the start of my commute is where I’m very gentle with the throttle, but right after that it’s onto the interstate with metro traffic merges. I figure it’s warm enough by then to drive normally. Is that enough time since startup to begin raising the RPMs without restraint?

Operating temperature on most modern cars is 190F. How long your car takes to get there would depend on a few factors, but mostly on the temperature it started out at, and is driven in. If the heater is cranked up in subzero temps, that may be quite awhile.
Driving it mildly, as opposed to idling, speeds up the process.

 

[Patman]

Operating temperature on most modern cars is 190F. How long your car takes to get there would depend on a few factors, but mostly on the temperature it started out at, and is driven in. If the heater is cranked up in subzero temps, that may be quite awhile.
Driving it mildly, as opposed to idling, speeds up the process.

In my Civic it warms up significantly faster if I have the heater temperature set to its lowest possible setting, compared to having it set to a warmer setting. I’m sure it’s the same with pretty much every car.

 

[ltslimjim]

Operating temperature on most modern cars is 190F. How long your car takes to get there would depend on a few factors, but mostly on the temperature it started out at, and is driven in. If the heater is cranked up in subzero temps, that may be quite awhile.
Driving it mildly, as opposed to idling, speeds up the process.

I'm able to start, let it idle for a couple minutes and then begin my commute. The coldest it gets in Atlanta is usually teens once a season and 20s otherwise. Most "winter" days are around freezing or higher as the low. So, I can get away with not running the heat at all during this 5-10 minute window; unless I need to run the Defrost of course. I suspect normal driving is fine for me by the time I reach the interstate. Of course I'm not redlining it then, but I'll get VTEC to kick in at 3,500 RPM for safe merges.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Agreed, there are many, many factors. Wanted to point out that today’s low tension is not yesterday’s. And the piston in today’s minivan or grocery getter sedan looks like the piston in a 13k redline 1995 superbike. Sometimes a more radical design in fact.

A lot has changed.

 

[edyvw]

Operating temperature on most modern cars is 190F. How long your car takes to get there would depend on a few factors, but mostly on the temperature it started out at, and is driven in. If the heater is cranked up in subzero temps, that may be quite awhile.
Driving it mildly, as opposed to idling, speeds up the process.

Which cars run at 190f? Are you talking coolant or oil/engine temperature? High temperature is easiest way to lower consumption and increase performance.

 

[goblin]

Which cars run at 190f? Are you talking coolant or oil/engine temperature? High temperature is easiest way to lower consumption and increase performance.

Most non-Germans, no ?
My Santa Fe V6 is glued to 90c no matter what. 194f. Even did this during a trip to Myrtle Beach in scorching outside temps.
Monitored with Torque Pro, to the degree. Oil temp varies more. Coolant will do 88 to 90.

 

[edyvw]

Most non-Germans, no ?
My Santa Fe V6 is glued to 90c no matter what. 194f. Even did this during a trip to Myrtle Beach in scorching outside temps.
Monitored with Torque Pro, to the degree. Oil temp varies more. Coolant will do 88 to 90.

Oil temperature will be above 212f for sure, probably 220f at least. That is what is considered engine temperature. If oil temperature is below 212f, that is done to mitigate some issues.
Yes, Germans will run higher. That is why generally they have better fuel efficiency from similar displacement, more power, but also issues with gaskets, coolant hoses.

 

[Mechanician]

Which cars run at 190f? Are you talking coolant or oil/engine temperature? High temperature is easiest way to lower consumption and increase performance.

Coolant temperature is used to determine operating temperature. That is what most car engine's computer use to determine engine temperature. 190 degrees is a general estimate for many.
Most cars don't even have an oil temperature sensor.

 

[thetricky]

I think you're the point here that thicker oils run cleaner in the ring packs. It's not about HPL and Restore and Protect cleaning pistons, although they can do that.

It's about why those pistons got so gunked to begin with....was it from thin oils that oxidize like crazy? Could be.

This info really helps to clarify why HPL is formulated like it is. Focusing on really low volatility, striving to avoid those sludge/varnish precursors from the start through their formulations. HPL is much more than a long OCI oil.

 

[edyvw]

Coolant temperature is used to determine operating temperature. That is what most car engine's computer use to determine engine temperature. 190 degrees is a general estimate for many.
Most cars don't even have an oil temperature sensor.

So, because there is no oil temperature sensor there is no oil temperature?
Estimation is not way to determine temperature. Generally these gauges are notoriously inaccurate.

 

[goblin]

So, because there is no oil temperature sensor there is no oil temperature?
Estimation is not way to determine temperature. Generally these gauges are notoriously inaccurate.

This is really ill will here. You're better than that. He never said any of the above.

An inaccurate temp gathering doesn't mean that the ECU doesn't know what the coolant temperature is, quite precisely. It's just that they didn't deem it necessary to provide that info to the driver.

Asian cars' temp gauges have historically never been precise - they stay in the middle from temp X to temp Y and only move if there's an issue, once up to temp. Have been like this since the 80s. Germans have mostly provided gauges that actually show something. Then again my old Beemer doesn't even have a temp gauge. Which I hate.

Can the oil Temp be extrapolated from the coolant temp - yes, if the information about the oil quality is there (it often is), although it would be obviously better to have a dedicated sensor.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

LOL with the years customers have been suffering low ring tension problems I'd say its a proven fact.

 

[edyvw]

This is really ill will here. You're better than that. He never said any of the above.

An inaccurate temp gathering doesn't mean that the ECU doesn't know what the coolant temperature is, quite precisely. It's just that they didn't deem it necessary to provide that info to the driver.

Asian cars' temp gauges have historically never been precise - they stay in the middle from temp X to temp Y and only move if there's an issue, once up to temp. Have been like this since the 80s. Germans have mostly provided gauges that actually show something. Then again my old Beemer doesn't even have a temp gauge. Which I hate.

Can the oil Temp be extrapolated from the coolant temp - yes, if the information about the oil quality is there (it often is), although it would be obviously better to have a dedicated sensor.

There is no ill will. Coolant temperature is just that, coolant temperature.
Oil temperature can fluctuate a lot. It is in most cases, 30-40f higher then coolant in normal driving conditions. For example, my Sienna with 2GR-FE had coolant temperature stuck at 190f. Oil temperature on other hand was 225-230f during normal hwy speeds. It would regularly jump to 250f over mountain passes while coolant temperature stayed same (5f +-).

BMW went away with coolant gauge precisely bcs. they are irrelevant. They installed in most models oil temperature gauge because that is what resembles true engine temperature. For example, on track, before installing oil cooler, coolant temperature in my BMW would run at 178f (water pump goes into high effectiveness mode). However, DME at the same time was cutting power bcs. my oil temperature was 302f!

 

[ChemLabNL]

This is why everyone should be using a MB 229.52 oil like Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 ...Or a straight SAE 30

Especially in GDI engines and under a "lugging load".