What Additive Causes Clutch Slipping?

[sunruh]

if your canam really shears oil, be ready to see some REALLY thin stuff drain out. water will look thicker!
my mixmaster of doom turned some castrol gtx 20w50 into a thin 30wt. and that was in just 2+ hrs of motor time.

the ONLY castrol product to stand up was the very impressive Syntec 0w30 german. at that time green was already gone and i tested the gold.

the castrol motorcycle specific (found on the shelves of the local wallyworld) was no better than gtx.

 

[tc1446]

Sunruh: I've had at least 5 tests done, all at 3000 mi, with Amsoil and Valvoline synthetic
10-40. After seeing them shear down to upper 20, low 30 (using BITOG chart) I started
adding a qt of 20-50 and that was enough to keep the vicosity in mid-upper 30 range at 4000. There are several reasons I won't use more of the 20-50...just don't want to get into it here. Theres many hundreds of Can Ams on the road now using BRP's version of synthetic blend 10-40 but to my knowledge none have ever had it lab tested. Neither have I read of any problems associated with their oil, or any oil for that matter, but none deviate from the specified
10-40. I just like to tinker, so to speak, and thought it would be interesting to test the Castrol syn blend. Its not the kind sold at walmart..at least in my area. I ordered it online along with a qt of 20-50 (Can Am holds 4 1/2 qts) : http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-Actevo-Motorcycle-10W40-Gallon/dp/B0050J4IR2

You've got me going now; I may just test it at 2000 mi instead of waiting to 3000.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: tc1446
Sunruh: I've had at least 5 tests done, all at 3000 mi, with Amsoil and Valvoline synthetic
10-40. After seeing them shear down to upper 20, low 30 (using BITOG chart) I started
adding a qt of 20-50 and that was enough to keep the vicosity in mid-upper 30 range at 4000. There are several reasons I won't use more of the 20-50...just don't want to get into it here. Theres many hundreds of Can Ams on the road now using BRP's version of synthetic blend 10-40 but to my knowledge none have ever had it lab tested. Neither have I read of any problems associated with their oil, or any oil for that matter, but none deviate from the specified
10-40. I just like to tinker, so to speak, and thought it would be interesting to test the Castrol syn blend. Its not the kind sold at walmart..at least in my area. I ordered it online along with a qt of 20-50 (Can Am holds 4 1/2 qts) : http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-Actevo-Motorcycle-10W40-Gallon/dp/B0050J4IR2

You've got me going now; I may just test it at 2000 mi instead of waiting to 3000.

Try rotella conventional 15w40. I will bet it stays in grade longer than any other oil you've tried and tested thus far. The oil is extremely resistant to shear and fuel dilution doesn't elevate wear numbers. It meets a JASO spec although I'm unsure of which.
Shell should just rebadge rotella conventional with a motorcycle and once used it sells itself. But this is the shell geniuses who also marketed ultra.
One of the best oils on the shelf today yet most are unaware of its existence.

 

[Cujet]

I'm on my 44th motorcycle (no Harleys)

I've had some clutch slipping in various bikes. Not once was it related to the automotive synthetic oil I often use. I had a tech swear up and down that the use of motorcycle specific oils would prevent clutch slipping. Guess what, that bike eventually slipped the clutch.

More likely, the clutch was improperly designed, too much torque is being applied (modified engine) or it's simply worn out. Also, clutch springs lose tension over time. Quite often an aftermarket, higher tension, replacement set of springs fixes everything.

 

[tc1446]

I'm not up to trying Rotella since some Can Am riders had clutch slipping and when removed clutch slipping stopped. These were not on high mileage or worn out machines. Also, as I reported earlier, BRP has strengthened the clutch and increased oil flow which suggests to me that my clutch shouldn't pushed beyond factory recommendations for oil. I'm doing that to some extent by using a quart of 20-50 each oil change which appears to increase viscosity to an acceptable level but thats as far as I want to push it. I have an extended warranty and am taking no chances on having to spend about $1000 for a clutch job; hope BRP doesn't connect this thread to me. LOL

 

[Mackelroy]

Welp, I got the redline out of my system, I'll stick to the Castrol 10w40 4t at autozone next round. But at $45 for 3 quarts, Im atleast pulling double the normal change interval.


Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
One thing to note, oil induced clutch slippage is very suttle with a sound clutch.

Several years ago I ran some redline car oil in one of my bikes, I was actually on the second oil change with this oil or about 3,000 miles with running that oil. On sustain highway speed, I'd feel some clutch slippage for a scond and then not, It was so suttle I thought it was in my head. So I took the bike out for a big test, I had a 1 mile straight up mountain, and just burned through the gears, and when I hit top gear (the most load on the clutch, it was obvious There was slippages, as the clutch was obviou)sly intermittantly breakin loose and reengaging. Went home and switched back to a known good clutch oil and no more issue, redoing the test.

Recently in the last year or so, redline has new mc Ma rated motorcycle oils(they used to be MB rated). But they've taken alot of the moly out of the mixture, in comparison to the car stuff. Ive got 3 quarts Im about to try out in another bike.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
if your canam really shears oil, be ready to see some REALLY thin stuff drain out. water will look thicker!


If any 4 cylinder motorcycle engine can really shear oil its one with gear driven cams but
as the oil shears down the flow goes up which is good and perhaps why no one is complaining
about their mileage expectations...

I know you jest but water has a viscosity 1 cSt and I've never seen an lab report where the oil shear down to 1 have you???

 

[sunruh]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop


I know you jest but water has a viscosity 1 cSt and I've never seen an lab report where the oil shear down to 1 have you???



not yet!

 

[brave sir robin]

Originally Posted By: tc1446
I'm not up to trying Rotella since some Can Am riders had clutch slipping and when removed clutch slipping stopped. These were not on high mileage or worn out machines. Also, as I reported earlier, BRP has strengthened the clutch and increased oil flow which suggests to me that my clutch shouldn't pushed beyond factory recommendations for oil. I'm doing that to some extent by using a quart of 20-50 each oil change which appears to increase viscosity to an acceptable level but thats as far as I want to push it. I have an extended warranty and am taking no chances on having to spend about $1000 for a clutch job; hope BRP doesn't connect this thread to me. LOL


I am pretty sure your can am uses a rotax v twin correct? Its the same motor my aprilia falco used. They are known to have a little bit of slipping issues with just about any oil. I put a ton of miles on my falco and noticed slipping after the second oil change. This happened with mobil 1 15-50 so I dumped that out and replaced it with the original motul but guess what? still slipped. what cured it was an old bikers trick. I took apart the clutch (its WAY easier than you think just make sure you have dental picks or something similar to fish out the last couple of plates) take the steels out and rub them on the garage floor in a figure 8 pattern on both sides and then make sure you get all the grit off then reassemble everything and like magic the clutch works like new.

 

[brave sir robin]

for the record the best oil I used on the falco was rotella 15-40 or the wal mart variant. mine swallowed a little bit of oil all the time. Probably about a qt every 4700 miles. It was difficult to tell exact oil level because of the dry sump they used.

 

[tc1446]

Originally Posted By: brave sir robin
for the record the best oil I used on the falco was rotella 15-40 or the wal mart variant. mine swallowed a little bit of oil all the time. Probably about a qt every 4700 miles. It was difficult to tell exact oil level because of the dry sump they used.


How many miles did you put on the bike?

 

[tc1446]

I've read all of what you knowledgeable folks have written here and may well give Rotella a try if the Castrol Actevo UAO isn't up to par.

Thus far, I have less than 2K on Castrol and one thing I've noticed is that the reverse gear is now very smooth. Before, on either Amsoil or Valvoline, reversing produced a sort of mild rachety sound and feel that is now smooth and fairly seamless.

If I can remember and catch it at around 2K I'm gonna send in a sample for a UAO just out of curiosity.

 

[RogerBacon]

I switched from Rotella 15-40 to Amsoil 20-50 motorcycle oil to help the shearing problem in my Shadow 1100. It helped that problem and as an added bonus after 500 miles the clutch grabs much firmer now. The clutch feels totally different - it engages much faster with no slipping. I now believe there is a strong case for using a motorcycle specific oil. I don't think there is anything wrong with the Rotella, I just believe the Amsoil is better. Roger

 

[Mackelroy]

Rotella 15w40 , there is no stronger clutch oil period! its so strong it makes some bikes shifting notchy, cause it has such a strong grip on the clutch. I personaly dont like it for this reason even though it has a loyal following.

You should definitely see a difference with the amsoil 20w50, but for the opposite reasons that you would think.

 

[AVB]

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
Rotella 15w40 , there is no stronger clutch oil period! its so strong it makes some bikes shifting notchy, cause it has such a strong grip on the clutch. I personaly dont like it for this reason even though it has a loyal following.

You should definitely see a difference with the amsoil 20w50, but for the opposite reasons that you would think.


What does the clutch have to do with shift feel if it is disengaged and not dragging?

 

[tc1446]

Sunruh, heres the abbreviated report on a Castrol test done at 2000 miles: 3 qts 10-40, 1qt 20-50, and as you predicted, its not holding up very well. The Cst is down to 11.1 which is getting pretty thin for only 2K miles and the lab gave it a "caution". Looking on the bright side, the semi-auto shifting has never been so smooth as it is now. I'll need to change it shortly or perhaps siphon out a quart and add another 20-50 to beef up the viscosity. First col is Castrol at 2K, second was last Amsoil done at 3K mile.

Additives (ppm)
Magnesium (Mg) 869 15
Calcium (Ca) 1190 3184
Barium (Ba) Phosphorus (P) 1035 1238
Zinc (Zn) 1258 1428
Molybdenum (Mo) 7 40
Boron (B) 62 34
Contaminants
Water (%) Physical Tests
Viscosity (cSt 100C) 11.1 13.7
Physical / Chemical
Base Number (mgKOH/g) 6.9 8.9

 

[Mackelroy]

when you disengage and engage the clutch the plates still are close enough to have some friction. Or in other words some drag, slicker oil will have less drag(improving shift action), and viceversa in the engagement and disengage process. This is the main differnce why one oil shifts better than the other, its effect on the clutch friction.

 

[AVB]

The drag on a disengaged clutch doesn't tell you anything about the effect an oil has on clutch grip though. Oil induced drag normally is felt more sitting still, it causes the bike to lunge when you put it in gear.

 

[Mackelroy]

Thats excessive grip or drag, not at all what Im talking about, I'm just talking about the suttlies in areas where the clutch is not fully engaged or disengaged like shifting. Im sure people that pull their clutch all the way in , when shifting , wouldnt notice the difference amongst some oils.

But Rotella 15w40 is a stout clutch oil from my experience, too much from for my use.

 

[AVB]

I see what you are saying now. I don't know if that translates to more grip under full clamping force though. Not that I have anything against Rotella.