What about dino for BMW?

[RustyH]

So, I have been doing my own oil changes for over 2 decades now. When anyone ever asked, I was proud to say I never spent over $10 for the oil and filter. I can still say that about my wife's Volvo. I use 59 cent Chevron Supreme. Schuck's seems to run sales all the time.

I purchased a 2002 BMW 530i last year w/ 38,000 miles. I've been using Castrol Syntec 0W-30 every 6 months. I drive about 10,000 miles per year, 95% city 5% highway in Boise, ID. I really don't like the idea of longer OCIs given my heavy city use. I still plan to continue this routine for another year at which time my CPO warranty expires. So, here are my questions and thoughts.
1. Why does BMW require synthetic oil? Is there something unique about these engines or is BMW simply trying to achieve longer OCIs?
2. GC is now up to $6 at Autozone x 7 quarts is $42 + $5 filter. My oil change is now $47.
3. My preference would be to use a high quality dino with short OCI's (say every 4 mos) after my warranty expires. Is this a bad idea? (The owner's manual does specify synthetic 5W-40 or 5W-30.) Even though I've stated my preference, I intend to keep this vehicle a long time and certainly don't want to screw something up.
And, if someone thinks this is a good idea, what specific oil recommendations do you have?

 

[G-MAN]

You might try Castrol Syntec Blend 5w30 at no more than 5000 mile or 6 month OCIs. Do a UOA and see how the wear metals look.

You can get Syntec Blend at Wal-Mart for around $3.50/qt, maybe a little less if you get it in the 5 qt jugs.

 

[cos]

How syn Rotella 5W40 in the jug from Wal-Mart?

 

[Mike242GT]

Couple things to consider. First, how about running a UOA to see if you can stretch that GC out longer than 5K? I'm thinking you probably can. Second, if you'd rather go with a less expensive oil, I'd guess that Rotella T syn 5W-40 might work for you. Or maybe Pennz Platinum. Despite how good they've become, I think I'd be a bit leery of going with a conventional oil if my owners manual specifically called out for synthetic.

 

[vvk]

It is very simple, really. It does not matter if you use non-synthetic, semi-synthetic or full synthetic. What matters is that you use oil that has BMW approval. Meaning that it conforms to BMW performance specifications. As long as you see that BMW Longlife 01 approval on the label, you are welcome to use your favorite $0.59 oil.

I don't understand your reluctance to keep using Syntec 0W-30 past 5k miles. Your car is equipped with an oil life monitor. If you do a lot of city driving, the oil monitor will reflect that. Since Syntec 0W-30 has BMW approval, BMW is satisfied that it can go the distance. You should be satisfied, too.

I had been using non-sinthetic oil in my 1986 SAAB, typically changing it every 10k miles. This was SAAB recommendation in 1986. The car had over 300k miles on original engine when I sold it. At the time of sale the engine was very strong, smooth, quiet and had excellent fuel consumption.

 

[G-MAN]

BMW only specifies synthetic because of their recommended long drain intervals. If you cut back to a reasonable OCI, say 5000 miles or less, ANY quality oil will do fine. Period. Hence my suggestion to try Syntec Blend.

 

[tripleM]

Quote:

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Your car is equipped with an oil life monitor. If you do a lot of city driving, the oil monitor will reflect that.

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The BMW oil "idiot" light is triggered by how much gas you are using, has nothing to do with oil per se.

So if you are getting good mpg, it might not be indicative of your oil's or engine's condition.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I agree with G_Man on this. These engines have huge sumps and if you can't bear to go 12-15k miles a good conventional or blend would be economical and lubricate the engine just fine for normal American use.

 

[dave1251]

After your warrenty. A good option will be either Delo or Rotella 15W-40. Until then you must stick with the BMW approved oil. I recommend extending your OCI's a bit more than 5K as many before me suggested.

 

[Gurkha]

No matter what, one good thing about German cars is that traditionally they have always had larger sumps, part of their over-engineering concept, this has always given them leeway when it comes to oil performance. Now only if they would give better cooling systems, somehow, German cars love to run on fringe in tropical and desert weather, out here in summers, all the German cars are hitting upper 90s and 100s and the dealership tells their customer that everything is a-ok. Strange to see Japanese cars keeping their needles steady at 80 no matter what the outside temps may be, dunno how they do it. My friend uses Delo 400 on his ancient MB280SE here, engine has over 300,000 miles and runs like a dream.

 

[The Critic]

Synthetic oil is rarely recommended by OEMs for the purposes of extended service intervals. Some people may make the argument that the higher TBN of synthetic oils allow for increased service intervals, but as an example, look at the new Amsoil 5w40. The starting TBN is no higher than one of most conventional oils on the market today, yet the oil is recommended for applications calling for service intervals of 10k miles or longer. Look at some of the GM cars on the road today that require synthetic oil. The Oil Life Monitors are calibrated no differently solely because the vehicle requires synthetic oil.

Many of these European vehicles are designed to be “track ready,” along with some domestic vehicles (ones filled with M1), so one of the reasons why the synthetic oil was installed is to prevent the need to install an oil cooler, and to give greater engine protection in situations where the engine oil temperatures were above 305F (?).

In addition, some VVT equipped engines prefer the usage of synthetic oil due to its more linear viscosity properties (explicitly, cold viscosity properties), as I’ve been told that some of these engines use the engine oil as a hydraulic system. That might be the case here, which makes it important for you to use the correct oil.

 

[HTSS_TR]

BMW and MB cars are similar in a way that both require synthetic oils for long OCI up to 20k miles and both have digital oil life monitor. I have '00 E430 equipped with FSS (Flexible Service System), the manual states that the recommended oil is 0W40 synthetic. There was a lawsuit against Mercedes Benz about 5 years ago:

"In the suit, plaintiffs alleged that Mercedes-Benz vehicles were equipped with a defective "Flexible Service System" -- a system designed to monitor a car's driving condition and notify drivers when the vehicle requires an oil change. The alleged problem with the FSS occurs when the driver uses conventional oil instead of synthetic oil. Typically the FSS recommends oil changes somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000 miles with a 12,000-mile average depending on each vehicle's operation and driving conditions, but conventional oil will allegedly cause engine damage when used for FSS recommended drain intervals. In March 2001, Mercedes-Benz sent all vehicle owners a letter that strongly recommended switching over to pure synthetic oils for all FSS-equipped vehicles to prevent excessive oil consumption and oil sludging."

If you like to follow BMW oil change interval, then you must use synthetic oil. If you like to shorten OCI to 6-7k miles or less then conventional oils are acceptable. Chevron Supreme is one of the good conventional oils that you can buy almost anywhere, and it can protect your BMW engine to 6-7k miles easily.

My '00 E430 uses only Mobil 1 since day 1, and the OCI is 1 year/11-13k miles. Looking through the oil fill hole, I did not see any vanish in the engine.

 

[jaj]

BMW's will run fine with conventional oil, but it should meet the minimum HTHS viscosity spec for the engine - 3.5 CST at 150 degrees Celsius.

While a lot of synth 5w-30's achieve this, virtually no conventional 5w-30's or 10w-30's do. The exceptions are mostly HDEO 10w-30's intended for diesel engines (Rotella, DELO 400, etc).

The easiest way to get the right viscosity is to use the synth oil. The BMW 5w-30 synth oil from the dealer used to be cheaper than GC, and for your use it's fine.

Cheers
JJ

 

[bmwtechguy]

I would stick with the GC or BMW 5W-30 during the warranty period as you are currently doing. Another good one is Valvoline Maxlife Synthetic 5W-30. After that, any of the LL-01 synthetic 5W-30's or 5W-40's would probably work for you at a yearly change interval, given your driving type and annual miles. You should confirm any extended OCI (>7500 miles) with oil analysis. The cars I see that are driven mostly city miles using the BMW dealer oil to the full 15k BMW oil life intervals have significantly dirty engines, even when I see them just after the warranty expires. Those driven highway miles are much better (cleaner inside). If you really want to use only conventional oil, your Chevron 5W-30 may do ok for up to 5k during the winter months only (given where you live) I would move the viscosity up to Delo 15W-40 or 10W-30 or another HDEO during the warmer weather. The newer spec HDEO CJ-4 oil may be better for catalyst protection and other qualities, if you can find it. It will probably cost upwards of $10/gal, where available. As Gurkha said, these cars run plenty hot in the summer and need an oil that can maintain viscosity at higher oil temps in summer.

 

[shanneba]

You didn't mention the normal length of your city trips. If they are mostly short trips, you may be surprised by the TBN depletion of the synthetic on your M54 engine. Take a look at my OUAs of BMW 5w-30 and GC 0w-30 in the same engine (2003 BMW 330Ci) with mostly short trips. The BMW synthetic was down to 1.8 TBN after 5000 miles. CG did a little better. In my car it takes about 10 miles of city driving to get the oil up to 100F over the outside air temp.
It could be longer in cold weather, it raley drops below 45 here in Houston. Remember there are 7 quarts in the sump to warm up.

50 bucks isn't an outragous cost for an oil change with 7 quarts of oil. You did buy a BMW. Wait until you need to change the transmission fluid, if you have an automatic the fluid runs about 15 bucks a liter.

I will stick with only synthetic in my BMW. You will find no conventional 5w-30s with the BMW LL01 approval. Most synthetic 5w-30s will not meet that spec either.

If you contact BMW NA and ask about approved oils, they will probably still say that Mobil1 5w-30 amd Castrol Syntec 5w-30 are approved. Niether meets the BMW LL-01 spec that BMW specifies in Europe for the same car. Of course the normal driving conditions are different here. We do have speed limits so you can't cruise at 120 MPH for hours like you can in Germany.

If you choose a conventional 5w-30 try to find one with a 100C viscosity of close to 12. GC runs at about 10 PSI idle oil pressure in my car at around 200 C, 7 psi is the min spec for idle oil presure. A thin 5w30 may have you close to this limit.

Your results will definately vary........

 

[vvk]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Your car is equipped with an oil life monitor. If you do a lot of city driving, the oil monitor will reflect that.

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The BMW oil "idiot" light is triggered by how much gas you are using, has nothing to do with oil per se.

So if you are getting good mpg, it might not be indicative of your oil's or engine's condition.

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I sorry, what's your point?

If you drive in the city, you get poor mileage and your oil monitor will trigger an oil change sooner. That's precisely why it is such a good indicator.

On modern BMWs the oil monitor actually tells you how many miles you have left until it needs an oil change. It is more than just an idiot light.

 

[vvk]

Quote:

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BMW only specifies synthetic because of their recommended long drain intervals. If you cut back to a reasonable OCI, say 5000 miles or less, ANY quality oil will do fine. Period. Hence my suggestion to try Syntec Blend.

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I can argue that with modern high compression engines, especially non-turbo, piston rings have moved quite close to the tops of the pistons over the years to improve combustion efficiency. This tends to burn oil and makes stuck rings all the more likely to happen. It takes a good full synthetic to resist this. Piston rings get very little, if any, oil circulation. They tend to get extremely hot. Metals used in making piston rings (nickel and chrome) act as catalyst for oil coking. Oil will solidify and accumulate in ring lands. The rings will get stuck and this will lead to increased blow by. NO in blow by will turn crankcase oil into sludge. That's why really efficient engines that must really control their combustion process have increased demands on oil specifications. Remember what happened to Toyota a couple of years ago.

In Europe nobody talks about synthetic vs. non-synthetic. If you ask what oil to use in a particular car, a specialist (or a salesman) will never recommend synthetic or semi-synthetic. Their recommendation will always be in the form of manufacturer approval. Who cares what oil base was used by the oil manufacturer? As long as they ran the proper engine tests and submitted paperwork to BMW, VW, etc. and got their approval, it does not matter if you use Group I, or Group V, or anything in between. In the US, the market is really simplified. It is not focused on individual manufacturer requirements. That's why European car makers must put ambiguous wording in their owner's manuals. They have to twist their normal European market recommendation (BMW LL-01, VW 503.01) into more general recommendations that North American market will accept. Such as API SM and full-synthetic. This could be overkill. They (BMW) have no choice but to do this because they have to fit a round peg into a square hole.

I disagree that any good oil will be OK for short OCI in any engine.

There is no way to know for sure unless there have been engine tests performed with this particular oil and the results are satisfactory according to (BMW, VW, Porsche, etc.) specifications. Since most North American market oils have not had these test performed, you would be risking increased engine wear, oil sludge or worse. For example, tests have shown that it takes just a couple hundred miles to ruin a VW TDi engine equipped with camshaft driven pump injectors (PD). They really do require very unusual oil. Hence we have VW 505.01 approval. BMW engines may not be quite as touchy, but WHY? Why risk it? Clearly, it is not cheap for automakers to come up with these recommendations and for oil blenders to comply with them. Why second guess all the effort that went into the system?

 

[Norm Olt]

I would agree that using an oil like, actually EXACTLY like Rotella-T Synthetic 5W-40 after the warranty period should easily allow you to go to a 7.5K OCI without any concerns: were you to do an OA at this point I am almost positive you would be able to extend the interval to 10K/1 year on a performance based criteria.

Although a quality 5W-30 dino (Chevron Supreme comes to mind) and 4 month OCI's would PROBABLY never result in anything negative from a protection standpoint and some very clean used oil (a lot of very clean used oil!) I would opine the prospect of 1 oil change and filter yearly with RTS 5W-40 (2 gallons gives you a make-up quart

) kills more birds with "one stone":

You are using a synthetic oil as per the mfg.'s spec

You are only spending approximately $40 for oil and $5 for a filter (vs. 21 quarts @ $1 + $15 for three filters = $36)

Plus saving the time it takes for an extra 2 oil changes

All this is predicated on RTS meeting the performance spec mentioned in a more learned post previously, which I believe it does.

I just went to an extended (for me) OCI on the '91 Mercedes using Amsoil AME and going to 10K. I see no problem and may eventually go to 15K with a filter replacement at the halfway point... Or not.

Cheers!

 

[RustyH]

Thanks everyone for a lively discussion. As expected, a variety of opinions. I was simply curious about synthetic w/ longer OCI vs. dino w/short OCI in a vehicle that specifies synthetic oil, in particular, BMW LL-01 spec that not all synthetics have.
I am not trying to be cheap with this vehicle, just curious what readers thought about a dino application here.
Shanneba comments about TBN depletion at 5000 miles with BMW oil and GC in this engine is concerning. I'll do a UOA next change. To answer the city driving question--I drive 11 miles to work and then same back. About 3-4 miles are at highway speed, then typical city.