We Are Obsessed But Does It Really Matter

[Brian123]

“Please be sure to include the sample size; the number of engines studied, the different makes and COO, turbo versus normally aspirated, etc. - as well as variables such as the oil viscosity used versus the one recommended, OCIs, short tripping versus long highways miles, the climate the vehicle is operated in, the manner in which the vehicle is operated, etc. And of course, let's not forget precise measurements of crankshaft journals, ring gaps, bore polishing, timing chain stretch and guide wear, etc.”

A study of one added to 10M more studies of one is a worthy experiment. 30 years of 20 grade oil in cars and trucks means it is usable. Maybe not for your specific application though. I always stress the oil for the application.

I like and have used Red Line motor oils. I use Motorcraft 5W20 often, even today. But my overall favorite is Renewable Lubricants Inc. I used 20 and 30 grade oils in my Enzo that specs a 60 grade oil. Mind you I am not racing the car. When I sold the car recently (15 years and 7K miles) it was inspected by Ferrari of Tampa Bay. The owner then bought the car from me. So I suspect they thought it was OK. Actually they said it was the best engine they had ever seen in an Enzo.

I do not like Shell Helix Ultra. It always rapidly drops a grade or two in my engines.

Ali

So, you put 7000 miles on your car in 15 years, so that is 466 miles a year, which is 1.27 miles a day. I do realize you do not drive your car everyday..
Whether you want to talk thick or thin, you really need to realize that 100% of the people who are either on this forum or reading this forum drive more than 466 miles in a year.

 

[Urshurak776]

The way I see it is this. How much of the worlds population are members of BITOG? Yeah, not many.

When it comes to changing oil in cars, what do most people do? They take it to Jiffy Lube, etc. What percentage of them do it on time (IAW manual) ?

For the vast majority of the worlds population, their engines are only moderately maintained at best, but still go 100K in most cases.

For most vehicles, drop in what manual says and do it on time, good to go. Brand really won't matter.

 

[kschachn]

I think it is important to add that the most common issue with a Ferrari is loss of compression. It is most likely a result of revving the car before the oil gets up to full operating temperature. This is contrary to those who say that as long as it is pumpable it will work fine. This is one of the reasons I use thin oils, I like to rev it up before the oil is hot. Trips are generally short and the oil never gets up to operating temperature.

Most likely you say?

 

[zray1]

I'd much prefer to buy a fellow blogger's car.

^^^^^ this !

Been Buying and selling quality classic cars for 5 decades. Have always purchased a better product when the seller was a member of a classic car club in his area.

A little pride in what you own goes along way in a cars longevity, regardless of what year it was made, or how much horsepower it made.

Z

 

[zray1]

IMO power density (hp/liter of displacement) is much greater today than in past decades.

This may or may be be applicable l, depending on the vehicle in question. My particular classics were always somewhat on the high horsepower side

But I believe it’s poor reasoning, or a cop-out, to say new vehicles wear out at under 250,000 miles due to more HP per liter or cubic inch.

Are all the engineering advances of the last 50 years of no use when it comes to engine longevity ?


Z

 

[i6pwr]

Where do these number come from. Sounds like a race to the bottom of longevity.

I agree with your post.

My thoughts were based on an engine going at least that far with an owner who neglects their vehicle....I agree this is true of 50 years ago also.

However, we have to factor in modern engines with cam phasers, turbo chargers, and many tiny oil passages which seem to me more plentiful than back in the day.

My comment was not that an engine will be wore out at 300K, or even 150K, but the wear compared to 150K and then 300K. How much wear will we see at 300K with the good synthetics, will it be worn to the point it will need rings, or will it have alot left?

I feel the difference in negligible with frequent oil changes, but if you can keep ANY wear to a minimum that's what I would want to do.

Oil doesn't have to travel as far in a 50's small block compared to a modern DOHC with cam phasers on both cams.

I agree with you the concept is the same.

 

[Shel_B]

IMO power density (hp/liter of displacement) is much greater today than in past decades.

I remember when 1hp per cubic inch of displacement was a goal, and then came the objective of 100hp per liter of displacement.

And CAFE wasn’t a thing in the 50’s and 60’s. There is the application of low tension oil rings and hones that are too fine I search of lower friction. LSPI and soot from Gas DI are all things we now deal with as a result of CAFE

You're correct, of course, and added to the stress resulting from more power from smaller engines makes for some mighty tough obstacles to engine longevity.

However, poor or inadequate maintenance by vehicle owners certainly is an additional contributing factor. Stretching oil changes and other maintenance items to contrived extended intervals has got to be factored into the equation as well, especially when owners are trying to do so at the lowest possible cost.

 

[zray1]

If the postings from my fellow owners of 20+ year old Jags are any indication, the fatal issues with older cars are primarily worn out complicated electronics, not engine wear.


These older cars are at the bottom of the depreciation barrel and not worth spending thousands on new computer and other electronic components. Some people are finding places that can repair these type parts, but that’s the exception, not the rule.

Back to the topic, on modern cars I know about engine wear does not seem to be an issue in any case up to the 400,000 mile mark. There are however too many examples of newly designed engines that turn out to be oil consumers and worse.

Perhaps the engineers that designed them lied about their resumes like did the newly elected US Congressman from Long Island.

Z

 

[AEHaas]

From the Progressive Insurance web site:​

How many miles does a car last?​

A conventional car can last for 200,000 miles. Some well-maintained car models will reach 300,000 or more miles total. The average passenger car age is currently around 12 years in the United States. Choosing a well-built make and model can help extend your car's longevity. Routine maintenance, quickly completing small repairs, regular washing, and careful driving habits also make a difference.

Can a car last 300,000 miles?​

It's possible for some properly maintained, well-built cars to reach 300,000 miles. Typically, a conventional vehicle lasts for 200,000 miles. The average automobile age in the United States has increased over the past several decades. Currently, it's around 12 years for a passenger car, according to data from IHS Markit and the federal government.

What influences car longevity?​

Several factors affect how long a car will run. Some car makes and models are known for being built to last. Vehicle technology advancements, including better computers, have also helped improve longevity for newer cars. Driver-assistance systems and vehicle management systems can extend the car's life by warning about maintenance issues and helping drivers avoid accidents.
Car maintenance matters too. Check the maintenance schedule in the owner's manual for your specific vehicle and follow the recommendations. Adjust your service plan accordingly if your driving qualifies for a severe-use or extreme-use maintenance schedule.

A reference ( https://www.bts.gov/content/average-age-automobiles-and-trucks-operation-united-states ) shows cars lasting only 8 years in 1995 and slowly goes up every year until last year when it reached 12 years. Also the longer they last the more miles they will accumulate. So despite all the thin oil and power per liter cars are going further.
Over all these years I have never heard of anybody I know that parted with a car because the engine wore out, even with many hundreds of thousands of miles. The car just had more things go wrong than it was worth but not a worn engine per say.

Ali

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

This may or may be be applicable l, depending on the vehicle in question. My particular classics were always somewhat on the high horsepower side

But I believe it’s poor reasoning, or a cop-out, to say new vehicles wear out at under 250,000 miles due to more HP per liter or cubic inch.

Are all the engineering advances of the last 50 years of no use when it comes to engine longevity ?


Z

I wouldn't say they were worn out but that engine repairs become cost prohibitive. Especially with regards to assembly focused packaging efficiencies vs repairability.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I remember when 1hp per cubic inch of displacement was a goal, and then came the objective of 100hp per liter of displacement.

You're correct, of course, and added to the stress resulting from more power from smaller engines makes for some mighty tough obstacles to engine longevity.

However, poor or inadequate maintenance by vehicle owners certainly is an additional contributing factor. Stretching oil changes and other maintenance items to contrived extended intervals has got to be factored into the equation as well, especially when owners are trying to do so at the lowest possible cost.

Ya 100 hp/liter seems to be the edge of uber reliability. It's amazing what we see today for example the Mercedes-AMG CLA/A 45 S makes 207.5 hp/liter

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

What I find to be unfortunate is that these cars we (collectively) over-maintain or at the very least, strive to best maintain, don't exchange hands between forum members very much. This site is missing out by not encouraging users to sell their cars to each other. I'd much prefer to buy a fellow blogger's car.

We're all too cheap. Lol

 

[kschachn]

What I find to be unfortunate is that these cars we (collectively) over-maintain or at the very least, strive to best maintain, don't exchange hands between forum members very much. This site is missing out by not encouraging users to sell their cars to each other. I'd much prefer to buy a fellow blogger's car.

Agreed unless it is an expensive Ferrari operated on sub-3.0 HT/HS oils. No thanks.

 

[Gebo]

And Jeff’s old enough to remember when 5k would get folks shorts in a tight spot

It’s still as tight as I can wear my undies.

 

[Bill_W]

Agreed unless it is an expensive Ferrari operated on sub-3.0 HT/HS oils. No thanks.

Guess you are not shopping for a Ferrari…

 

[Doc8404]

Incorrect. As a driving enthusiast, I desire reliable performance. From my tuned F150's with 200K-355K trouble-free miles, to my over-stressed 33 pound boost turbocharged 4 cylinder sports cars, and my modified Jaguar F-Type V6 tuned to 475HP, soon to be 550+.

I want the performance, I want the long life, I don't want reliability issues.

It's no surprise I don't have the same reliability issues that others have. My 5.4L still gets oil to the Right cylinder head, unlike those using the "recommended" oil. I've doubled the common lifespan with that one, with no signs of problems. The 3.5 Ecoboost is similar. No timing chain issues, despite so many others crying the blues. My Lycoming powered Cessna is not having "morning sickness" like so many others.

Unlike others here, I actually was involved in engine design and testing. Both marine and automotive.

Seems to be a common theme here, quality oil, adequate viscosity, frequent changes.

Possibly of interest. Coming home from the dealership, me driving an Enzo, following my boss in the F1. Both were brand new that day. We had some epic times.

More info on “tuned” F150 and what oil you run please.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

We've got Ford/GM/BMW/Hyundai/Kia with viscosity related timing chain issues, Hyundai/Kia with crankshaft issues, BMW with rod bearing failures, Honda/Acura with low tension piston rings failing at the slightest hint of wear, Toyota Prius with absurd oil consumption issues, Toyota with clogged piston oil drain holes and on and on and on.

Clearly, these are all oil related failures. It is not correct to say "it does not matter" because, clearly, it does.

None of the above are "oil related" issues and are manufacturer defects, and you are being very selective. There are plenty of VW engines that grenaded while using the fan fav 5W-40 oils here and some of the worst reliability scores are on cars that call for thicker oils. Oil does not exist to make up for design and engineering shortfalls, nor the lack maintenance by consumers not doing proper OCI changes. Most of the above examples called for what we now regard as "thicker oil" and the last one using thicker oil makes the problem worse...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

So… That is hardware engineering needed to the size of the bearing used. I have faith in the engineering. 20 weight oil has been around for 20 years...

If you are talking about 5W-20, it's been more like 60 years as GM called for them as winter fill in most passenger cars in the 60's. but using them in warmer climates was somewhat terrifying as was using a 5W-30. SAE20 has been here since the dawn of motoring. Mobil 1's first incarnation was 5W-20 in 74'. In around 1998 5W-20 came back as hydrocracking could produce vastly superior Group II/II+/III base oils minimizing the need for polymers and were useful in some applications. Honda and Ford used them first...

 

[slo town]

I think it is important to add that the most common issue with a Ferrari is loss of compression. It is most likely a result of revving the car before the oil gets up to full operating temperature. This is contrary to those who say that as long as it is pumpable it will work fine. This is one of the reasons I use thin oils, I like to rev it up before the oil is hot. Trips are generally short and the oil never gets up to operating temperature.

I don’t even floor it or rev my 240,000 mile old 2010 Honda Element until it’s fully warmed up. Heck, if I’ve done some sporting driving with lots of braking in my E46 I won’t stop and park it until I’ve driven around long enough to cool the brakes.

Scott

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

I think this forum really needs somebody like @kschachn to make a thread explaining why increased viscosity/MOFT overcomes the "drawback" of less flow and overpowers the increase in temperature compared to a thinner oil that flows a little faster through the bearings, and then sticky it for all to see.

I am nowhere near qualified to explain it, but there's a big misconception here about thinner oils and flow versus temp and how it does or does not relate to part on part contact inside an engine, and it's getting to the point of misinformation.

Great, then maybe someone can explain why every real world study shows that the vast majority of engine wear takes place in the first 20 minutes of engine operation from a cold start...