We Are Obsessed But Does It Really Matter

[kschachn]

There is a huge range. A dragster such as competition eliminator would use something like a 0w5. Dragsters in bracket racing will be from thin to the 20w50 range. Dragsters in something like Top Sportsman could be 5w30 to 50wt. Dragsters in Top Alcohol or Injected nitromethane 50wt to 70wt. Top fuel 70wt.

David

Thanks for the factual information rather than something someone once read on the Internet somewhere.

 

[Matagonka]

Yes it was. It took years to "Federalize" it to meet emissions and crash safety requirements.

Also of note, while in Shelton Ferrari waiting for the boss to complete the transaction, I had a rather long conversation with the guitarist of a very, very famous band. I found him to be exceptionally articulate, intelligent as hell and nothing like (my impression of) his stage persona. I understood the secret to their success after that one, despite the fact that we did not talk music.

I wonder now, what is the secret to their success?

 

[Bill_W]

Thanks for the factual information rather than something someone once read on the Internet somewhere.

So… May I ask. Who are you?

 

[kschachn]

So… May I ask. Who are you?

It is nice though, isn't it?

 

[Bill_W]

It is nice though, isn't it?

Well… Suppose I am just a student seeking knowledge. I learn a lot from the Professors in oil knowledge here at BITOG. But some I know what they do in the oil industry, some I do not.

Example:

Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (PUP) VOA 5W30 API SP

Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (PUP) VOA 5W30 API SP

bobistheoilguy.com

I know this VOA from Blackstone says that moly is an anti wear additive and I know what this guy does in the oil industry. But there are other professors here with different views.

In my work I have been taught to Qualify, Verify and Validate anything. As you said “something someone once read on the internet somewhere” for example.

Pro Stock drag use 0w-5, but that is due to oil temperature and fuel used for other drag cars.

 

[Bill7]

If you love the cars you own, and you plan to keep your cars to 200k+ miles, then use an oil which will protect the engine the best
(which to me means a euro based oil with a HTHS >= 3.5).

One good example on Amazon in the US is the 5 quart jug of: Castrol Euro 5W-30 A3/B4 for $31
which meets Mercedes MB229.5 spec. I did a compare of MB 229.5 with API SP on the Lubrisol website:

Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Passenger Car Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation

online.lubrizol.com

Oils which meet MB 229.5 score a 9 on the anti-wear score on the lubrizol graph.
Oils which only meet API SP only score a 4 on the anti-wear score on the lubrizol graph.

So API SP has a really low bar for wear protection.

I'm sure 99% of the people on BITOG website will still continue to use API SP, which is fine.
But for my cars, I prefer the HTHS >= 3.5 with the European Lubrizol anti-wear rating of 9.

Any car going up hilly mountains with high RPM's and high engine heat can benefit from a higher HTHS
than the owner's manual specifies. And nearly every engine sold in the US that is speced for 16 or 20 weight oils
is speced for 30/40 weight oils in Europe, Russia, and Australia. Automakers spec the better oil in places where there are no CAFE fines
for the exact same engine.

 

[kschachn]

Oils which meet MB 229.5 score a 9 on the anti-wear score on the lubrizol graph.
Oils which only meet API SP only score a 4 on the anti-wear score on the lubrizol graph.

So API SP has a really low bar for wear protection.

You are misapplying the purpose of those spider graphs. They are not absolute values, they are neither a literal translation of any performance specification nor are they applicable outside the same industry specification. It says so right on the website.

Everybody wants a ranking when there is no such thing.

 

[Bill7]

All I'm saying is API SP 20 weight oils are ok most of the time, but on those occasions where you are doing extended high rpm, high temperature engine operation, it's nice to have a cushion of protection with a HTHS >= 3.5. If you google HTHS wear graph, you'll see a graph which shows engine wear exponentially increase once HTHS goes below 2.6, which is where most new 20 weight oil's start out when they are new. Over the oil change interval, a 20 weight oil sheers as it ages and the HTHS goes as low as 2.3. This is when the exponential wear can occur.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Yep, HTHS and MOFT headroom is a good thing.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well… Suppose I am just a student seeking knowledge. I learn a lot from the Professors in oil knowledge here at BITOG. But some I know what they do in the oil industry, some I do not.

Example:

Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (PUP) VOA 5W30 API SP

Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (PUP) VOA 5W30 API SP

bobistheoilguy.com

I know this VOA from Blackstone says that moly is an anti wear additive and I know what this guy does in the oil industry. But there are other professors here with different views.

In my work I have been taught to Qualify, Verify and Validate anything. As you said “something someone once read on the internet somewhere” for example.

Pro Stock drag use 0w-5, but that is due to oil temperature and fuel used for other drag cars.

Recall that 0W-5 doesn't exist as a grade so typically they are actually somewhere between 0W-8 and 0W-20. That's the problem with "grades" not ratified by the SAE and instead selected by manufacturers choosing to create their own in the range below 0W-20 (which was before 0W-8, 0W-12 and 0W-16 existed).

 

[FTTSHO]

Sure, it's a hobby for many. But does it really make any difference what oil we use? Few are going to extract every mile possible out of their engines.

Many say that architects who design buildings know nothing about what it actually takes to build something. All they know is theory. I believe there are those here who are just this way, theory only.

I like to experiment in most things I decide to pursue. It could be the type of mulch in the garden, the construction of my model radio controlled jets, diving gear, and of course the use of motor oils. This is something I have studied with experiments when in high school a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. I guess it was a friend of my fathers who worked as a chemist in the oil department of Shell. Also, in part, why I studied biochemistry.

So what is there in doing the "usual" with little actual variation. Yes, I obviously like to push the envelope. But how does one move ahead doing just the usual? Take one for the team. For the new year I suggest branching out of the box and doing experiments. There must be something each of us can do where the risk is minimal but still revealing.

I have started by using a 5 grade oil in a Lincoln Navigator that is spec'ed for a 30 grade oil. I feel comfortable because I know that viscosity is temperature dependent. I am not pulling a 10,000lb trailer, on a 5 mile steep uphill grade, in Arizona in the middle of the summer. I have actually seen at least 1 MPG increase in fuel economy and a definite feeling of get-up-and-go. I feel comfortable raving it up when the oil has not reached operating temperature.

Some will say there will be additives that are not activated. They need a higher temperature. But then many say it's only the oil that does the job. It is plenty thick at these reduced temperatures so the MOFT must be fine. It comes back to using the viscosity for your particular application. I have provided evidence that a 20 grade oil can be used in a Ferrari Enzo that specs a 60 grade oil. And with several modes telling the engine is fine. But again, I am not running the car on the track. I am using a 30 grade oil in the 812 Superfast that is spec'ed for a 40 grade oil. Do I hear 20?

ali

Fellow 3.5 Ecoboost owner here.

2010 Taurus SHO, have been using 5w20 since day one, and at 90k miles I switched to 0w20. Car has 110k miles, and it’s still going strong. 5,000 miles oil change intervals, and it’s all good. No cam phaser issues, never had to change those out, timing chain is also original. I do a lot of short trips and city driving by the way.

People often like to say 0w20 is too thin, but the question I always ask is “what makes you think 0w20 is too thin?” Most people can’t answer this question. If someone is “knowledgeable enough” and have spent enough time on Bitog, they would bring up “if HTHS is below 2.6 engine damage will occur”, but that’s not exactly true.

Millions of engines are running on 0w20, and as long as oil change intervals are kept at a reasonable interval, and all other scheduled maintenances are done in a preventative manner, engines will last at least 300k Miles, maybe longer. I don’t see why we all spend so much time trying to make 0w20 look bad, without showing any scientific evidence. Every single “0w20 is too thin and will destroy my engine” thread begins with an “I think”.

 

[kschachn]

People often like to say 0w20 is too thin, but the question I always ask is “what makes you think 0w20 is too thin?” Most people can’t answer this question. If someone is “knowledgeable enough” and have spent enough time on Bitog, they would bring up “if HTHS is below 2.6 engine damage will occur”, but that’s not exactly true.

Millions of engines are running on 0w20, and as long as oil change intervals are kept at a reasonable interval, and all other scheduled maintenances are done in a preventative manner, engines will last at least 300k Miles, maybe longer. I don’t see why we all spend so much time trying to make 0w20 look bad, without showing any scientific evidence. Every single “0w20 is too thin and will destroy my engine” thread begins with an “I think”.

None of that is true, yet you post it as though it's what is being said.

Part of the problem rather than the solution and why these threads continue to propagate.

 

[FTTSHO]

None of that is true, yet you post it as though it's what is being said.

Part of the problem rather than the solution and why these threads continue to propagate.

I never said what you highlighted on what I said was true, I was just saying most threads are like that. What I meant was people don’t know what they are talking about.

So what do you think is the solution?

 

[kschachn]

I never said what you highlighted on what I said was true, I was just saying most threads are like that. What I meant was people don’t know what they are talking about.

So what do you think is the solution?

I've never seen anyone state that below an HT/HS of 2.6 engine damage will occur. But the wear does go up unless perhaps the engine is specifically designed to tolerate thinner oils. All engines wear with all oils, there is no way around it. But how much and when is the key.

 

[TiGeo]

Fellow 3.5 Ecoboost owner here.

2010 Taurus SHO, have been using 5w20 since day one, and at 90k miles I switched to 0w20. Car has 110k miles, and it’s still going strong. 5,000 miles oil change intervals, and it’s all good. No cam phaser issues, never had to change those out, timing chain is also original. I do a lot of short trips and city driving by the way.

People often like to say 0w20 is too thin, but the question I always ask is “what makes you think 0w20 is too thin?” Most people can’t answer this question. If someone is “knowledgeable enough” and have spent enough time on Bitog, they would bring up “if HTHS is below 2.6 engine damage will occur”, but that’s not exactly true.

Millions of engines are running on 0w20, and as long as oil change intervals are kept at a reasonable interval, and all other scheduled maintenances are done in a preventative manner, engines will last at least 300k Miles, maybe longer. I don’t see why we all spend so much time trying to make 0w20 look bad, without showing any scientific evidence. Every single “0w20 is too thin and will destroy my engine” thread begins with an “I think”.

It's the 0 winter rating, folks lose their minds over it all over the interwebs...and not just on the 20s...the 30s...the 40s...anything wtih a 0 is "too thin" to some folks.

 

[ZeeOSix]

It's the 0 winter rating, folks lose their minds over it all over the interwebs...and not just on the 20s...the 30s...the 40s...anything wtih a 0 is "too thin" to some folks.

Yep, thinking some of those people don't really understand what the "W" rating means. Some even think that the oil gets thicker when it's hot because "30" is bigger than "0" when they see "0W-30".

 

[OVERKILL]

Yep, thinking some of those people don't really understand what the "W" rating means. Some even think that the oil gets thicker when it's hot because "30" is bigger than "0" when they see "0W-30".

Yes, that's surprisingly common.

 

[TiGeo]

Yep, thinking some of those people don't really understand what the "W" rating means. Some even think that the oil gets thicker when it's hot because "30" is bigger than "0" when they see "0W-30".

I can't tell you how many times in the VW forums/FB groups I've seen folks advise against 0W40 "too thin bro"...so funny.

 

[Bill_W]

It's the 0 winter rating, folks lose their minds over it all over the interwebs...and not just on the 20s...the 30s...the 40s...anything wtih a 0 is "too thin" to some folks.

View attachment 135342

I do have a question… The “Winter” number is actually above the ambient temperature in almost all instances and you really need to know where the viscosity at startup is. 5w20 has less VII than 0w20. Are VII only targeting down to 104 deg. F and 5w20 actually thinner at ambient start temperature due to much less VII? Of course the base oil type would get into this as how much that base oil gives you a better VI.

 

[PimTac]

All I'm saying is API SP 20 weight oils are ok most of the time, but on those occasions where you are doing extended high rpm, high temperature engine operation, it's nice to have a cushion of protection with a HTHS >= 3.5. If you google HTHS wear graph, you'll see a graph which shows engine wear exponentially increase once HTHS goes below 2.6, which is where most new 20 weight oil's start out when they are new. Over the oil change interval, a 20 weight oil sheers as it ages and the HTHS goes as low as 2.3. This is when the exponential wear can occur.

I have not seen a 0W-20 below HTHS 2.6

Do you have an example?