When Ford talks Purolater will listen Roger...a big contract like Ford isn't chicken feed...and if Purolater has to make a crap-load of filters for Ford with silk in em',and still make money,they will!I'm sure the Motorcraft is a great filter,never said it wasn't.What's wrong with a PureOne anyway?quote:
Originally posted by Roger:
Greaser, I'm extremely doubtful that a Motorcraft filter is a PureOne in Ford clothing.
Economically, I just can't see Purolator selling a premium item to Ford at a non-premium price. I can't find the post anymore, but a couple of months ago, a guy posted on the Edmunds site that he called Purolator's tech support and asked. They told him the Motorcraft was not a PureOne filter media. I believe it. Lastly, old Russ Kinze's comments in his study about the Motorcraft having a Pure 1 media was based on the same colored dye or glue or something like that. That's not too conclusive regarding the filter media. I simply don't accept as gospel what has been perpetuated on the internet all these years about Motorcraft filters being Pure 1's.
WARNING..There is NO by-pass on Bosch Premium!
- Thread starter Greaser
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joee12, I agree OEM filters are different that OTC (over-the-counter) filters, even if both are made by the same manufacturer.
For example, one of the Toyota 4 cyl truck filters is made by Purolator, but it has a number of internal and external differences compared to any OTC Purolator filter. For example, the Toyota filter has a 24% heavier and thicker metal filter shell than the Purolator Pure One. The number of pleats in the filter media is different. The 0 ring seal of the Toyota filter is a different design, etc. etc.
So those who claim OEM filters are merely rebadged and overpriced OTC filters are making unsubstantiated claims unless they can back them up with photographic evidence.
For example, one of the Toyota 4 cyl truck filters is made by Purolator, but it has a number of internal and external differences compared to any OTC Purolator filter. For example, the Toyota filter has a 24% heavier and thicker metal filter shell than the Purolator Pure One. The number of pleats in the filter media is different. The 0 ring seal of the Toyota filter is a different design, etc. etc.
So those who claim OEM filters are merely rebadged and overpriced OTC filters are making unsubstantiated claims unless they can back them up with photographic evidence.
I didn't mean to imply anything was wrong with the Pure 1. Rather, I was trying to say Russ Kinze's basis for stating that the Motorcraft filter media was a Pure 1 media is questionable. Regarding the Ford filter he said, "I could identify the Pure One element media by a purple dye they use at the seam. It also has the mysterious assembly string wrapped around the outside of the element."
Parden the pun, but that just never sounded like a pure match for me.
Pure 1 filters are an excellent value. Frankly if they made the bypass valve per Ford specs, I'd probably use them a lot. It's just that I'm biased in favor of the Ford spec for the bypass valve.
Parden the pun, but that just never sounded like a pure match for me.
Pure 1 filters are an excellent value. Frankly if they made the bypass valve per Ford specs, I'd probably use them a lot. It's just that I'm biased in favor of the Ford spec for the bypass valve.
You're right, mine are 3410's, and the ones I bought for my Suburban are 3510's.
I'd be glad to cut one open, but honestly I don't know what to look for...that's why I read what you guys have to say...all I know is that a bypass valve is a "good thing".
Guess I could bring my digital cam home from the office on Monday and post the pics.
How should I cut it open...will a hacksaw do? And about how far up the canister from the base should I begin the cut?
I usually cut about 3/4 of an inch above the base with a dremel(hacksaw will do,use a vise)..which I just broke doing a Mobil filter..darn those things are thick...cut around the filter can trying to line your cut up with the beginning cut.Near the end of your cut the spring tension will move the base away from the can..watch it here..after you are done take off the can and try not to move the spring and other componants around too much.This way you'll see how everything is put to-gether.What you are looking for is some type of valve.Most are on the top of the media column in the shape of a poppet type..some are on the baseplate in the form of a coiled spring and rubber washer...almost like the anti-drainback valve...that(anti-drainback valve) you will see on the baseplate as a large rubber washer-plunger type set-up covering the smaller,input oil holes .The Bosch I had put the spring..which puts pressure on the whole assembly..with a large hole in it..and the media column had multiple smaller holes where the spring sits into VERY TIGHTLY...and there is NO WAY oil pressure will move this set-up...it's a placebo.
Well, I couldn't stand it any longer so I cut one open about 30 minutes ago. Don't have a vice so it took some effort but I got a decent cut.
Doesn't appear to be a bypass valve, or a valve of any sort. Here's what I see:
- There are only three internal parts: (1) rubber "washer" or anti-drainback valve (as you point out) which fits over the six inlet holes, (2) filter medium (with metal plates attached on both ends, and (3) a metal, four pronged "leaf" spacer that fits between the filter element and the closed end of the shell ( or canister).
- Unless the anti-drainback valve doubles as a bypass valve, there is no "top" bypass valve, assuming this graphic below represents a "top" bypass:
I can see no evidence of how the anti drainback valve, if it doubles for a bypass valve, can allow oil into the center column or (tube) of the filter.
- There are, however, six perforated holes in the "bottom" metal cap of the filter element which are blocked by the "four pronged leaf spacer" that fits between the filter element and the closed end of the canister. These six holes would allow oil to flow into the center column (tube) if the "leaf spacer" wasn't blocking them. Maybe this is the bypass device (thus being a "bottom bypass valve)...if so, I'm not impressed...I don't see how this metal leaf could accurately determine when it's time to go into bypass mode. Perhaps this "leaf" is what you refer to as a "spring" in your post above...and if so, I agree with you...I don't know how oil pressure could activate it.
Speaking of "not impressed", I'm really not much impressed with anything else this filter has to offer now that I've opened it....in fact, I'm kinda disappointed. I'll probably throw these away and go back to the Motorcraft. All this marketing hype from aftermarket vendors is starting to p@ss me off. But they hooked me for a half dozen, as well as two for my Suburban.
I'll try to get some pics posted Monday or Tuesday, unless I go to the office tomorrow and get my digital camera and post them sooner.
[ March 08, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: cheeks ]
Doesn't appear to be a bypass valve, or a valve of any sort. Here's what I see:
- There are only three internal parts: (1) rubber "washer" or anti-drainback valve (as you point out) which fits over the six inlet holes, (2) filter medium (with metal plates attached on both ends, and (3) a metal, four pronged "leaf" spacer that fits between the filter element and the closed end of the shell ( or canister).
- Unless the anti-drainback valve doubles as a bypass valve, there is no "top" bypass valve, assuming this graphic below represents a "top" bypass:
I can see no evidence of how the anti drainback valve, if it doubles for a bypass valve, can allow oil into the center column or (tube) of the filter.
- There are, however, six perforated holes in the "bottom" metal cap of the filter element which are blocked by the "four pronged leaf spacer" that fits between the filter element and the closed end of the canister. These six holes would allow oil to flow into the center column (tube) if the "leaf spacer" wasn't blocking them. Maybe this is the bypass device (thus being a "bottom bypass valve)...if so, I'm not impressed...I don't see how this metal leaf could accurately determine when it's time to go into bypass mode. Perhaps this "leaf" is what you refer to as a "spring" in your post above...and if so, I agree with you...I don't know how oil pressure could activate it.
Speaking of "not impressed", I'm really not much impressed with anything else this filter has to offer now that I've opened it....in fact, I'm kinda disappointed. I'll probably throw these away and go back to the Motorcraft. All this marketing hype from aftermarket vendors is starting to p@ss me off. But they hooked me for a half dozen, as well as two for my Suburban.
I'll try to get some pics posted Monday or Tuesday, unless I go to the office tomorrow and get my digital camera and post them sooner.
[ March 08, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: cheeks ]
Well Cheeks..Can you tell me how in the H the oil pressure is going to activate the four leaf spring gizmo?I had two people look at it and tell there's NO-WAY it can open.The can is crimped on top of that spring,that sits in the top of the media column,that closes off the six little holes.It's a fake by-pass valve..thats all.It's made to look like one by flipping it over at the store..but when you take it apart you can tell just from common sense it CAN NOT open.The column can't push down anywhere because it's allready seated against the baseplate by the 4 leaf spring.I thought I was losing my marbles...trying to figure it out...it HAS to work somehow..I told myself...two other mechanics I know looked at and just laughed at me...last words they said to me was buyer beware
By the way..the picture you posted is a baseplate type by-pass...Mobil and Motorcraft oil filters use this type..to name a couple..I think Amzoil also has a couple in their line-up...which is the best if you ask me..but these types of by-pass designs have a separate spring and rubber washer..and the spring for the by-pass is set at the manufacturers determined pre-set psi for each application...you'll know one of those when you see it.
Gotta agree with you on all points, Greaser.
Glad I saw this thread, thanks for posting it. Like you, once I cut it open I kept looking for something....*anything*...that showed me this filter could bypass directly into the center tube.
I wonder how many people are running this filter for extended drains...I cringe at the thought. The irony is that I thought this would be a good filter for a 5-6k drain...better than a "regular filter", more capacity, and apparent 15-20 micron filtration that wouldn't become overly restrictive or "clogged" during the last 2-3k miles, but if it does, the bypass kicks in......WRONG!
By the way...I had pretty much figured out "baseplate bypass valve", etc. but then again, somone's "top" is another person's "bottom"..it's confusing sometime"....thus I posted the above graphic which I got from here: http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart2.htm
[ March 08, 2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: cheeks ]
Glad I saw this thread, thanks for posting it. Like you, once I cut it open I kept looking for something....*anything*...that showed me this filter could bypass directly into the center tube.
I wonder how many people are running this filter for extended drains...I cringe at the thought. The irony is that I thought this would be a good filter for a 5-6k drain...better than a "regular filter", more capacity, and apparent 15-20 micron filtration that wouldn't become overly restrictive or "clogged" during the last 2-3k miles, but if it does, the bypass kicks in......WRONG!
By the way...I had pretty much figured out "baseplate bypass valve", etc. but then again, somone's "top" is another person's "bottom"..it's confusing sometime"....thus I posted the above graphic which I got from here: http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart2.htm
[ March 08, 2003, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: cheeks ]
I hate to tell you I told you so, but
I told you so! Just kidding, obviously, but I'm glad this so called clicker bypass that Champion also told me existed is being investigated. If the Mobil 1 filter is soon to follow with this design, then I assume they'll do K&N at the same time. Maybe these guys using the Wix filter might be onto something! It NEVER surprises me that when a product becomes popular, the quality drops and the price goes up. That's why I think forums like this are great.
By the way, here is where I posted pictures and links to information about the Bosch filters. Bosch doesn't claim that their Premium filter has a bypass design, so I don't know why Champion would:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000451
By the way, here is where I posted pictures and links to information about the Bosch filters. Bosch doesn't claim that their Premium filter has a bypass design, so I don't know why Champion would:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000451
Darn internet...I'll just add my last Bosch Premium to the rest of the stuff on my "wasted money" shelf.My two K&N filters are on it along with various tranny pans,drain plugs,spark plugs,wires etc.Could have been happy being ignorant, like the majority of people who just slap it on and forget about it.Isn't marketing a wonderfull thing
If Bosch filters don't have a bypass valve, then neither do STP or Walmart SuperTech filters. When we out Saturday afternoon, I took a look at those Bosch filters again in AutoZone and saw those six little metal leaf openings on the bottom of the filter that you guys are referring to.
Well guess what? The Champion-built STP and SuperTech filters are identical.
I hear what you're saying about them Greaser, but I seriously doubt Champion would unilaterally remove the bypass valve on their filters without saying something. It may be as hard as a Rubix cube to open, but those holes have got to be a bypass valve.
Well guess what? The Champion-built STP and SuperTech filters are identical.
I hear what you're saying about them Greaser, but I seriously doubt Champion would unilaterally remove the bypass valve on their filters without saying something. It may be as hard as a Rubix cube to open, but those holes have got to be a bypass valve.
Well Roger there's only one way to find out..then you tell use how it opensquote:
Originally posted by Roger:
If Bosch filters don't have a bypass valve, then neither do STP or Walmart SuperTech filters. When we out Saturday afternoon, I took a look at those Bosch filters again in AutoZone and saw those six little metal leaf openings on the bottom of the filter that you guys are referring to.
Well guess what? The Champion-built STP and SuperTech filters are identical.
I hear what you're saying about them Greaser, but I seriously doubt Champion would unilaterally remove the bypass valve on their filters without saying something. It may be as hard as a Rubix cube to open, but those holes have got to be a bypass valve.
quote:
Originally posted by Greaser:
Originally posted by Roger:
[qb] If Bosch filters don't have a bypass valve, then neither do STP or Walmart SuperTech filters. The Champion-built STP and SuperTech filters are identical.Great detective work men.
I and others have commented on the apparent difference b/T the Supertech and Motorcraft FL1 equivalent. Looking forward to any additional findings. It is almost unbeliveable if this proves to be true. I will not take a chance with the Supertech unless someone can prove that it does have an effective bypass.
If this proves true, it will be another example of what some of these giant Corporations will try and pass off on the public.
I better serve up a little humble pie before this goes any further.
- I am not an engineer, heck...I'm not even a mechanic for that matter...and I've never manufactured one oil filter whereas Champion has manufactured millions. My "practical" experience is limited to land development, which is somewhat extensive and where I've had to use what little brains I have to size up hundreds of construction situations and "make them work".
- Maybe the contraption we described does actually work. For cripes sake we've been to the moon and I'm sure 50 years ago I would have said that's impossible.
- It gives me no pleasure to puff out my chest and give a negative opinion on these filters. I've got other things to do, and this is not entertainment for me.
That said, I see no way in Hades how this bypass setup, if that's what it is, can work...with even a modicum of dependability.
- I am not an engineer, heck...I'm not even a mechanic for that matter...and I've never manufactured one oil filter whereas Champion has manufactured millions. My "practical" experience is limited to land development, which is somewhat extensive and where I've had to use what little brains I have to size up hundreds of construction situations and "make them work".
- Maybe the contraption we described does actually work. For cripes sake we've been to the moon and I'm sure 50 years ago I would have said that's impossible.
- It gives me no pleasure to puff out my chest and give a negative opinion on these filters. I've got other things to do, and this is not entertainment for me.
That said, I see no way in Hades how this bypass setup, if that's what it is, can work...with even a modicum of dependability.
I don't think any apolgies are necessary at all Cheeks.
I for one learned that there is a new bypass design being rolled out further across the line of filters that Champion makes...possibly even the highly touted Mobil One line. Never knew that before until Greaser started questioning what was going on. All I ever did was look into the hole and wondered where the bypass valve was.
I probably will tear one apart now to see if I can figure it out. But I have a secret weapon...my 14 year old son. That little rascal beats me at more games and such, than I'll ever admit.
Learning can be messy.
I for one learned that there is a new bypass design being rolled out further across the line of filters that Champion makes...possibly even the highly touted Mobil One line. Never knew that before until Greaser started questioning what was going on. All I ever did was look into the hole and wondered where the bypass valve was.
I probably will tear one apart now to see if I can figure it out. But I have a secret weapon...my 14 year old son. That little rascal beats me at more games and such, than I'll ever admit.
Learning can be messy.
Well Greaser, I love a challenge. So believe it or not, I just ran to Walmart and bought a SuperTech filter. Of course my wife thinks I need counseling pretty bad right now. Anyway, took the darn thing apart. I'd bet a LeBatts' six pack it's the same bypass design you saw in the Bosch.
I have a theory as to how the bypass valve works. Don't know if it's right, but it seemed like the only way that contraption could work. I don't think the leaf spring moves at all. In the middle of the bottom end cap there is a slight outward indentation right between the six holes. That buldge fits neatly in the middle of the leaf spring hole. When I pushed on the indentation, it flexed inward..."clicked" if you will. Now I understand why Bosch tech support would tell Cheeks it was a "clicker" valve. That is the same direction oil pressure would push it if the filter wanted to go into bypass. When I pushed on the indentation, there was a small gap between the leaf spring and the end cap. Dam small, I doubt it's even a 32nd of an inch. But I believe it would be enough to let oil under pressure easily pass thru to the six holes.
Whether or not this is how the darn thing works, I'm not impressed with it at all.
Compared to the size of the filter media itself, the can's inlet holes and outbound opening, there would have to be one heck of a lot of pressure on the oil to move enough of it thru that small gap and those six tiny holes. I'm also very suspicious that some oil would seep past the bypass design's metal-on-metal contact even when the filter was not in bypass mode. Maybe not enough to worry about, but still... To be fair, it could possibly flex just enought to relieve the pressure while still allowing most of the oil to move thru the filter media. I'm only speculating at this point.
Like I said, I don't know if my interpretation is right or not. Would love to hear a counter argument from a Champion engineer. But until then, I'm with you! Seeing is believing I guess. I don't think I'll be putting a filter with that design (Bosch, SuperTech, STP, or Mobil One) on one of my cars. There are simply too many other good alternatives out there to settle for this. Everyone else can make up their own mind.
I have a theory as to how the bypass valve works. Don't know if it's right, but it seemed like the only way that contraption could work. I don't think the leaf spring moves at all. In the middle of the bottom end cap there is a slight outward indentation right between the six holes. That buldge fits neatly in the middle of the leaf spring hole. When I pushed on the indentation, it flexed inward..."clicked" if you will. Now I understand why Bosch tech support would tell Cheeks it was a "clicker" valve. That is the same direction oil pressure would push it if the filter wanted to go into bypass. When I pushed on the indentation, there was a small gap between the leaf spring and the end cap. Dam small, I doubt it's even a 32nd of an inch. But I believe it would be enough to let oil under pressure easily pass thru to the six holes.
Whether or not this is how the darn thing works, I'm not impressed with it at all.
Like I said, I don't know if my interpretation is right or not. Would love to hear a counter argument from a Champion engineer. But until then, I'm with you! Seeing is believing I guess. I don't think I'll be putting a filter with that design (Bosch, SuperTech, STP, or Mobil One) on one of my cars. There are simply too many other good alternatives out there to settle for this. Everyone else can make up their own mind.
Roger, you can bet when I was hack-sawing my filter open last night, I made sure my wife didn't know what I was doing or she'd think I should be sent off in a white jump suit with extra long sleeves. I even hid the filter when I brought it inside and into the room with my computer
I think your summary was dead on and your description of the components and how they fit is perfect...I see exactly what you mean. And yes.. "to be fair" as you say it likely does work, but like you I think there are better configurations out there...doesn't look like very much oil volume would flow into the center tube when in bypass mode, and it does look like it would take quite a bit of pressure to effect the bypass. And though I didn't post it last night, I feel exactly as you do that the metal-on-metal "seal" between the leaf spring and the six holes doesn't form much of a seal at all, and that dirty oil could easily flow into the center tube even when not in bypass mode.
Two things different in my case as compared to your above post: 1) the "slight indention" in the end cap you refer to is actually a "slight embossed" (or raised) circular stamp in the metal, and 2) although when I pressed down on the end cap it did move inward, it didn't click.
Edit: Ooops, sorry...after re-reading your post I see where you said "slight outward indentation" and "bulge". My bad.
BTW, it wasn't me who contacted Champion labs, it was someone else...but in a thread of this length I also lose track of who did what
Thanks for your excellent discription.
By the way, what part # Supertech did you buy, if you haven't thrown it away already?
[ March 09, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: cheeks ]
I think your summary was dead on and your description of the components and how they fit is perfect...I see exactly what you mean. And yes.. "to be fair" as you say it likely does work, but like you I think there are better configurations out there...doesn't look like very much oil volume would flow into the center tube when in bypass mode, and it does look like it would take quite a bit of pressure to effect the bypass. And though I didn't post it last night, I feel exactly as you do that the metal-on-metal "seal" between the leaf spring and the six holes doesn't form much of a seal at all, and that dirty oil could easily flow into the center tube even when not in bypass mode.
Two things different in my case as compared to your above post: 1) the "slight indention" in the end cap you refer to is actually a "slight embossed" (or raised) circular stamp in the metal, and 2) although when I pressed down on the end cap it did move inward, it didn't click.
Edit: Ooops, sorry...after re-reading your post I see where you said "slight outward indentation" and "bulge". My bad.
BTW, it wasn't me who contacted Champion labs, it was someone else...but in a thread of this length I also lose track of who did what
Thanks for your excellent discription.
By the way, what part # Supertech did you buy, if you haven't thrown it away already?
[ March 09, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: cheeks ]
I don't have to hide my cut up oil filters...my wife doesn't come out in the garage anymore to ask what I'm doing...she knows better than that
.Do a little test here..take a wooden dowel..place it on that button...press the wooden dowel and the button on the media column to-gether with a scale of some sort...bathroom if you have one...at what poundage does it click?What are the chances of a piece of grit getting under that 4 pronged spring and keeping it in constanst by-pass?It's a royal pile o crap..and I still say if varnish and gum seal that thing it won't by-pass..Ive checked the by-pass on my Purolaters this way with a postal scale...it started to open at 18-19 pounds...I still say it's a placebo by-pass system made to save a few pennies for the companies who contracted Champion Labs to manufacture them.In all fairness..do you guys think this system will work?
Thanks.
It was the new black ST2 filter from Walmart.
It was the new black ST2 filter from Walmart.
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