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No one is doubting BMW's reliability or prowess. It's VDub that has the historical problems.
VW to phase out N/A engines
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Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW has already done that (at least in the US), and natural aspiration used to be an extremely important part of what made them special.
False, the 128i is still an NA 3.0 I6. For MY13, the M3 was of course NA as well (production now done).
Both of those cars are out of production, AFAIK.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW has already done that (at least in the US), and natural aspiration used to be an extremely important part of what made them special.
False, the 128i is still an NA 3.0 I6. For MY13, the M3 was of course NA as well (production now done).
Both of those cars are out of production, AFAIK.
Turbo's are not the problem, they were the rage in the 80's and Saab, Volvo, Mercedes, and Porsche have been using them for years. A properly designed system should last the lifetime of the motor or beyond.
Boosted engines are not the end all and be all that manufactures make them out to be. If you work one hard it will burn as much fuel as a larger engine. 200hp worth of fuel is 200hp worth of fuel.
What would really increase mileage is lowering HP output and removing weight but people won't stand for slower decontented cars.
Boosted engines are not the end all and be all that manufactures make them out to be. If you work one hard it will burn as much fuel as a larger engine. 200hp worth of fuel is 200hp worth of fuel.
What would really increase mileage is lowering HP output and removing weight but people won't stand for slower decontented cars.
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I am a huge fan of turbo engines. It's nice to see they are finally becoming mainstream.
The little Ford Escape I rented with the 2.0 "ecoboost" was a real pleasure to drive. The engine was very refined, smooth, quiet and responsive. Great at altitude in Northern CA, wonderful hill climbing and passing power. 240HP from a 2.0L engine, with no lag, perfect throttle response, no 4cyl sound and smooth operation is impressive indeed. Come to find out, Jaguar now uses the same engine in it's XF. It's that good.
I can't blame VW and others for producing engines this way. They simply perform very well and are much more pleasant to drive than the normally aspirated versions, (my opinion, of course) .
The small turbo's really tame the 4 cyl exhaust sound of small, hard working engines. The boost smooths them out. The throttle by wire improves response and power-predictability (no sudden onrush of power) and the direct injection reduces octane requirements and improves torque.
The little Ford Escape I rented with the 2.0 "ecoboost" was a real pleasure to drive. The engine was very refined, smooth, quiet and responsive. Great at altitude in Northern CA, wonderful hill climbing and passing power. 240HP from a 2.0L engine, with no lag, perfect throttle response, no 4cyl sound and smooth operation is impressive indeed. Come to find out, Jaguar now uses the same engine in it's XF. It's that good.
I can't blame VW and others for producing engines this way. They simply perform very well and are much more pleasant to drive than the normally aspirated versions, (my opinion, of course) .
The small turbo's really tame the 4 cyl exhaust sound of small, hard working engines. The boost smooths them out. The throttle by wire improves response and power-predictability (no sudden onrush of power) and the direct injection reduces octane requirements and improves torque.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
What would really increase mileage is lowering HP output and removing weight but people won't stand for slower decontented cars.
Indeed.
A further problem is that even a small car today still has to be crash compatible with all the SUVs people have been buying in the last 15 years, which keeps beltlines high and curb weights up.
What would really increase mileage is lowering HP output and removing weight but people won't stand for slower decontented cars.
Indeed.
A further problem is that even a small car today still has to be crash compatible with all the SUVs people have been buying in the last 15 years, which keeps beltlines high and curb weights up.
Yep. All you need is 120-150 hp to move a family sedan around with authority, this is easily done by a small 4 cylinder.
The problem is family sedans weigh 4k+ pounds instead of 3k.
Boosted to the hilt small motors add nothing other than complexity and cost. They give manufactures impressive CAFE numbers because they can run them off boost to test, and give people who want power impressive test drives when they get into the boost.
But long term their are no cost of ownership advantages.
The problem is family sedans weigh 4k+ pounds instead of 3k.
Boosted to the hilt small motors add nothing other than complexity and cost. They give manufactures impressive CAFE numbers because they can run them off boost to test, and give people who want power impressive test drives when they get into the boost.
But long term their are no cost of ownership advantages.
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW has already done that (at least in the US), and natural aspiration used to be an extremely important part of what made them special.
False, the 128i is still an NA 3.0 I6. For MY13, the M3 was of course NA as well (production now done).
Both of those cars are out of production, AFAIK.
128i is not. M3 is (though it still shows on the BMW website).
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW has already done that (at least in the US), and natural aspiration used to be an extremely important part of what made them special.
False, the 128i is still an NA 3.0 I6. For MY13, the M3 was of course NA as well (production now done).
Both of those cars are out of production, AFAIK.
128i is not. M3 is (though it still shows on the BMW website).
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Yep. All you need is 120-150 hp to move a family sedan around with authority, this is easily done by a small 4 cylinder.
The problem is family sedans weigh 4k+ pounds instead of 3k.
Boosted to the hilt small motors add nothing other than complexity and cost. They give manufactures impressive CAFE numbers because they can run them off boost to test, and give people who want power impressive test drives when they get into the boost.
But long term their are no cost of ownership advantages.
Agreed. These complex engines don't seem to provide exceptional MPG, which as we all know, is often the major cost in vehicle operation. For example, the Ford Escape ecoboost achieved 22MPG on a recent 1800 mile driving vacation AND gas was roughly $4 gallon in North CA. Over 150,000 miles, that would be about $27,000 in fuel costs, as much expense as the vehicle itself.
However, I'd be lying if I said I did not love the power it produced! That's worth something.
Consider the use of yesterday's engines under today's regulatory environment. Vehicles would become significantly smaller, as would engines. The ubiquitous "geo-metro" would be the norm. I'm not OK with that.
Yep. All you need is 120-150 hp to move a family sedan around with authority, this is easily done by a small 4 cylinder.
The problem is family sedans weigh 4k+ pounds instead of 3k.
Boosted to the hilt small motors add nothing other than complexity and cost. They give manufactures impressive CAFE numbers because they can run them off boost to test, and give people who want power impressive test drives when they get into the boost.
But long term their are no cost of ownership advantages.
Agreed. These complex engines don't seem to provide exceptional MPG, which as we all know, is often the major cost in vehicle operation. For example, the Ford Escape ecoboost achieved 22MPG on a recent 1800 mile driving vacation AND gas was roughly $4 gallon in North CA. Over 150,000 miles, that would be about $27,000 in fuel costs, as much expense as the vehicle itself.
However, I'd be lying if I said I did not love the power it produced! That's worth something.
Consider the use of yesterday's engines under today's regulatory environment. Vehicles would become significantly smaller, as would engines. The ubiquitous "geo-metro" would be the norm. I'm not OK with that.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW has already done that (at least in the US), and natural aspiration used to be an extremely important part of what made them special.
False, the 128i is still an NA 3.0 I6. For MY13, the M3 was of course NA as well (production now done).
Both of those cars are out of production, AFAIK.
128i is not. M3 is (though it still shows on the BMW website).
In that case, consider my statement to "BMW is months away from completing a purge of all NA engines from their US market lineup."
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW has already done that (at least in the US), and natural aspiration used to be an extremely important part of what made them special.
False, the 128i is still an NA 3.0 I6. For MY13, the M3 was of course NA as well (production now done).
Both of those cars are out of production, AFAIK.
128i is not. M3 is (though it still shows on the BMW website).
In that case, consider my statement to "BMW is months away from completing a purge of all NA engines from their US market lineup."
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Yep. All you need is 120-150 hp to move a family sedan around with authority, this is easily done by a small 4 cylinder.
The problem is family sedans weigh 4k+ pounds instead of 3k.
Decent top selling family sedans due it fine on the low tech. Honda tweaked some more MPG out there 2013 Honda Accord 2.4L with DI. For car and driver a great average MPG of 29MPG mixed:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-honda-accord-sport-sedan-manual-long-term-test-review
0-60 in 6-7 is not too shabby in a low maintenance fuel sipper for its size family car. VW and Ford, BMW got it all wrong long term ownership.
Yep. All you need is 120-150 hp to move a family sedan around with authority, this is easily done by a small 4 cylinder.
The problem is family sedans weigh 4k+ pounds instead of 3k.
Decent top selling family sedans due it fine on the low tech. Honda tweaked some more MPG out there 2013 Honda Accord 2.4L with DI. For car and driver a great average MPG of 29MPG mixed:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-honda-accord-sport-sedan-manual-long-term-test-review
0-60 in 6-7 is not too shabby in a low maintenance fuel sipper for its size family car. VW and Ford, BMW got it all wrong long term ownership.
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