VW ID.4 - Electrified CUV - $40k starting.

[pezzy84]

There are 400 Electrify America stations in the United States and there are 111,000 gas stations. Even with real cars when you are running on E and desperately searching for a gas station, people still run out of gas. That seems a near certainty with the new VW. Maybe they should offer three years of free AAA towing.

What about having an electric "fuel pump" at home or at work where you can conveniently fill up while you sleep or while you work? This beats a gas station any day - if I didn't smoke cigs I would not have had any reason to stop at a gas/diesel station for the past 7 months.

You failed to recognize all the different charging companies and only counted Electrify America stations. There is Chargepoint, EVGO, Blink, Electrify America, etc. - the L2 plugs are pretty much standardized. As of March the US had approximately 25,000 public charging stations. Then there are the electric outlets that are hopefully present in every home in the US that will fuel up your car while you sleep.

 

[wdn]

I counted only Electric America stations because that is the so-called free beneft offered by VW. You cannot get three years worth of free driving if you live nowhere near one of them, and there are only 400 stations in the whole country. That is what makes it a marketing gimmick.

 

[Cujet]

As always, the batteries are the key limitation. Battery day has come and gone, with some interesting new tech, and promises of greatly improved lifespan, and ever lower costs. The one thing still missing is the necessary doubling or tripling of specific energy/energy density. 2000 pound, $20,000 batteries are not really ideal.

I love the performance of today's EV's! However, capable EV's cost considerably more than today's non luxury offerings. When an Accord Hybrid is $26K list and $24K street, and has 600 mile range, similar cost per mile, and superb resale, the EV's have a way to go before I can afford the payments and stomach the limitations.

 

[daves87rs]

Thinking about it......

 

[UncleDave]

What about having an electric "fuel pump" at home or at work where you can conveniently fill up while you sleep or while you work? This beats a gas station any day

Agreed, the home charging is THE defining benny for BEVs
Prob 80% of ones driving is in a 50 mile radius.

It beats a gas station hands down until you need to leave the circle on a trip - then it doesnt.
On these occasions L2 doenst cut it with any kind of reasonable rate of travel per day.

Lots of families have 2 cars and just take the other car, other guys have no problem crossing vast distances on electrics,

UD

 

[RennWerks]

I dropped my $100. Been itching to go electric. . . .

Me, too. But I want an ID.3. I can understand Volkswagen's deciding that Americans don't want "small cars" and/or hatchback cars and won't buy them, but I still think the ID.3 would sell here in competition with the Tesla 3. Of course, I'm the same guy who'd jump all over at Mk.8 TCR . . . .

 

[RooflessVW]

Me, too. But I want an ID.3. I can understand Volkswagen's deciding that Americans don't want "small cars" and/or hatchback cars and won't buy them, but I still think the ID.3 would sell here in competition with the Tesla 3. Of course, I'm the same guy who'd jump all over at Mk.8 TCR . . . .

At the very least it would replace my Touareg. We'd keep the Atlas.

I don't do "small" cars unless they're sports cars. If I'm going to sacrifice practicality and comfort it has to be for a reason.

 

[supton]

I love the performance of today's EV's! However, capable EV's cost considerably more than today's non luxury offerings. When an Accord Hybrid is $26K list and $24K street, and has 600 mile range, similar cost per mile, and superb resale, the EV's have a way to go before I can afford the payments and stomach the limitations.

Indeed. Well, I have never driven one but I get the idea. Would be interesting to just plug my car in every night and head out, never having to hit a fuel station on my commute. My commute being fixed and well known. Keep a second vehicle around for long road trips, trips to the lumber yard, etc.

I still don't get how CA can plan to electrify their fleet--not with rolling blackouts! IMO between an aging electric infrastructure that was not up to par before PEV's and then different plugs (have they settled on anything yet? every gasoline station I go to has a gas nozzle that works in every gas powered car I've ever used) PEV's still have a ways to go. [But I'm grateful for all the early adopters who are working through the issues for me!]

 

[UncleDave]

I still don't get how CA can plan to electrify their fleet--not with rolling blackouts! IMO between an aging electric infrastructure that was not up to par before PEV's and then different plugs (have they settled on anything yet? every gasoline station I go to has a gas nozzle that works in every gas powered car I've ever used) PEV's still have a ways to go. [But I'm grateful for all the early adopters who are working through the issues for me!]

Rolling blackouts kill gas station power as well, as do the PSPS public safety power shutoffs.

But yeah California now has a night time power problem. Plenty during the day now...

UD

 

[supton]

Rolling blackouts kill gas station power as well, as do the PSPS public safety power shutoffs.

But yeah California now has a night time power problem. Plenty during the day now...

UD

Fair enough on killing the gas stations. But I think the bigger issue still remains, their power system is near max (or beyond?). Attempting to add more load isn't going to help. [And isn't nighttime when everyone is going to charge anyhow? Daytime charging would be nice but that's a lot of chargers in parking lots to be installed so people can charge while at work.]

 

[UncleDave]

Fair enough on killing the gas stations. But I think the bigger issue still remains, their power system is near max (or beyond?). Attempting to add more load isn't going to help. [And isn't nighttime when everyone is going to charge anyhow? Daytime charging would be nice but that's a lot of chargers in parking lots to be installed so people can charge while at work.]

Sort of - The grid here stinks, but the problem isn't as bad as it seems here's why.

With more people than ever working from home more cars than ever are at home during the day.
Solar boost the states daytime capacity tremendously - no blackouts are during 10am-5pm anymore.

The danger zone has shifted from 11-4 to about 6-9 and after 9 the load drops dramatically.

Most are now on a time of use electricity plan.
Time of use typically has a substantial drop in cost around 11- midnight and thats when people tell the cars to start charging for lowest price per KWH.

 

[supton]

True that, this pandemic has flipped everything on its head. That said, no one knows if it's the new "forever" so I'm not sure what to make of it all.

Of course, if people are staying home more, and if that becomes the new norm, it kinda becomes moot--they might only need to recharge once a week, and at that point, they can select a trickle charge. [Do they have an app where it says to charge if cost/kWhr drops below a level? I mean, if you had all week to charge, you could select some threshold to do it at.] Trickle charge levels aren't quite the same problem.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I was unsure about charging. When we got the Model 3, we drove around checking out charging options.
Silicon Valley is an EV (and tech) bubble, so this is not a fair representation of most of our country.
There is a Kaiser hospital clinic close; there are chargers in various spots of the huge parking lot.
You can charge for free in downtown Los Gatos (very limited) near the library.
There is a Super Charger location downtown in a back parking lot with 30 some chargers.
That was 2 years ago... It's growing.

Fueling these cars is different. You learn.

 

[wemay]

If you take a poll of the members in this thread "thinking about it" for the foreseeable future, imagine the interest from folks not on an fossil fuel forum.

 

[UncleDave]

True that, this pandemic has flipped everything on its head. That said, no one knows if it's the new "forever" so I'm not sure what to make of it all.

Of course, if people are staying home more, and if that becomes the new norm, it kinda becomes moot--they might only need to recharge once a week, and at that point, they can select a trickle charge. [Do they have an app where it says to charge if cost/kWhr drops below a level? I mean, if you had all week to charge, you could select some threshold to do it at.] Trickle charge levels aren't quite the same problem.

Haven't seen an app like that.

I have seen how the tesla supercharger routing (pretty slick) works as well as its time of charge settings,

The bolt and volt have the same time of charge features built in. On all these you can select the level of charge you want to pull based on what your plug can deliver.

Trickle on a BEV using a 110V outlet means something different than most think - with a nearly 100 KWH to fill a trickle is 1KW for an hour. like running a hair dryer on medium all night.

When you are running tight against a timeframe this is when all the efficiencies start to become meaningful, as in how many miles you actually get to drive per KW hour you pull. The charger, battery, motors, and inverter, aero, all contribute here to make a meaningful difference in what you actually get out of a KWH of energy measured at the meter.

This makes something like "charging rate" less meaningful as the correlation between charge consumed and miles you can drive are disassociated because of all the variables.

When VW says the ID 4 can charge " up to" 125 KWH that number (nor any max charge rate number) isnt as meaningful as it sounds, for a bunch of reasons just one being the question of how long does it take to ramp up to that number and how long can it sustain 120.

Model 3 and y can absorb twice that for limited period slamming twice the mile into the pack in the same mount of time - incredibly meaningful on a real world trip.

Given EA can charge up to 350KWH the car cannot charge at the rate the system can deliver.

Weve heard for years " just wait till the big guys come" and after a decade everyone is realizing that it isnt going to be as easy for them as everyone thought.

 

[JeffKeryk]

If you take a poll of the members in this thread "thinking about it" for the foreseeable future, imagine the interest from folks not on an fossil fuel forum.

Judging by the interest our car gets from non EV owners, the interest is huge.
But Teslas are expensive; a huge barrier to ownership. Or at least it should be... Elon Musk often cites this.
The Chevy Bolt is an alternative, but is a much different car.
Futuristic high tech vs. electrified ICE entry level car...
There is room for both. Of course more options are coming.

I will say, hybrids are a great option for those who own a single vehicle but want electric benefits without the drawbacks.
Of course, you have to be willing to incur the additional purchase cost which ain't chump change.
Our RX hybrid gets better mileage than the TSX. Or so wifey Sue sez...
The CR-V and Rav4 are examples. AWD to boot. I really like these and have helped friends and neighbors in purchasing them.

If you are considering an EV and it is your only vehicle, I strongly advise learning about charging in your area before spending your hard earned dollars. But if it makes sense for your situation, you will love your EV. They are a kick!

 

[wemay]

I will say, hybrids are a great option for those who own a single vehicle but want electric benefits without the drawbacks.

I think if we were interested in going "more green", this would be my first step. But taking into account how fast things are moving, who knows. Might just dive right in.

 

[wdn]

Rolling blackouts kill gas station power as well, as do the PSPS public safety power shutoffs.

But yeah California now has a night time power problem. Plenty during the day now...

UD

Not necessarily though, as many gas stations have their own standby generators to supply the gas pumps. I have been through blackouts longer than a week here in the frozen north and gasoline availability never became an issue.

If there are already rolling blackouts in California today, which makes it akin to a third-world country, what is the situation going to be when even ten percent of the vehicles are electric? The power grid is already strained beyond capacity.

 

[wdn]

The 10 cars with the highest depreciation (Road & Track):

#2 Chevy Bolt
#1 Nissan Leaf

"The Nissan Leaf, the only purely electric vehicle in this group, stands at the top of the list with a staggering 71.7-percent deprecation rate, or a $21,503 loss of value, after five years."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/g23723032/cars-with-high-depreciation/

 

[UncleDave]

Not necessarily though, as many gas stations have their own standby generators to supply the gas pumps. I have been through blackouts longer than a week here in the frozen north and gasoline availability never became an issue.

If there are already rolling blackouts in California today, which makes it akin to a third-world country, what is the situation going to be when even ten percent of the vehicles are electric? The power grid is already strained beyond capacity.

It going to be hard.

Ive never come across a station with a genset on the West coast, although Im sure there are.

Weve had one week this year of on and off rolling blackouts in certain areas, I think those affected (not all were) were a few hours - it stinks, but thats what it was.

WORSE than rolling blackouts are PSPS which go on for days paralyzing mountain and near mountain communities. These get really hard without a whole house whole business genset (which Im working on for both)

From an economic and grid standpoint - EV home charging is set up to charge at the lowest load period which coincides with the cheapest price. There really isnt a problem around home charging because of this.

UD