Mmm, seems the warranty is probably worthless unless you have owned the car from new then. As you can never guarantee what oil was put in a vehicle as a main dealer might have put the wrong stuff in.
VW 507.00 vs CBEA spec for DPF?
- Thread starter Jdragnfly
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This issue seems to be a lot of worry over nothing. The durability of the DPF on these cars isn't really a issue. Of much more concern is the high pressure fuel pump which actually has a history of self destruction.
I own a 2009 Jetta with the DPF and I've run my own tests over the past 50,000 miles. I've used 507 oil (5w30 Castrol and Mobil) for the first two drain intervals and then I tried normal low emissions 5W-40 for two drain intervals (Chevron Delo LE 5W-40). My car burns no oil and I saw absolutely no difference in number of regenerative burns over this 40,000 miles of use. On my last 10,000 mile drain interval I even used ashless 2-cycle oil in the tank at a 320:1 rate. Now this did cause above average regenerative activity so on my most recent oil fill I am using only a 507 oil (Mobil-1 formula 5w30) and Power Service white bottle additive. This is to monitor the regenerative activity only.
Quibbling over a 600 PPM versus 1000 PPM oil on a engine that doesn't burn any measureable amount is really pointless. I don't use the Amsoil product but there's no doubt in my mind that it would serve it's purpose as well as any other oil recommended for the CBEA/CJAA engines whether it's on VW's list or not.
I own a 2009 Jetta with the DPF and I've run my own tests over the past 50,000 miles. I've used 507 oil (5w30 Castrol and Mobil) for the first two drain intervals and then I tried normal low emissions 5W-40 for two drain intervals (Chevron Delo LE 5W-40). My car burns no oil and I saw absolutely no difference in number of regenerative burns over this 40,000 miles of use. On my last 10,000 mile drain interval I even used ashless 2-cycle oil in the tank at a 320:1 rate. Now this did cause above average regenerative activity so on my most recent oil fill I am using only a 507 oil (Mobil-1 formula 5w30) and Power Service white bottle additive. This is to monitor the regenerative activity only.
Quibbling over a 600 PPM versus 1000 PPM oil on a engine that doesn't burn any measureable amount is really pointless. I don't use the Amsoil product but there's no doubt in my mind that it would serve it's purpose as well as any other oil recommended for the CBEA/CJAA engines whether it's on VW's list or not.
What he said. I think these cars do well on any "507" oil, but I always thought about using a normal low emissions oil, as I never saw ANY oil use.
Once the new diesel comes out, I will be interested in the type of oil they mandate. Might be interesting.
Once the new diesel comes out, I will be interested in the type of oil they mandate. Might be interesting.
Well DPF equipped diesels have been the norm in the UK for many years, since 2001 in some French cars, using Eloys.
And since 2005/6 with the introduction of vehicles that regenerate either passively during long high speed runs or actively by chucking in extra diesel to be burnt in the DPF and some adjustments to the engine timing, they tend to misfire a little when doing an active Regen. Exhaust gases get really hot and often the exhaust sounds a bit "boomy".
There is huge industry involved I providing DPF delete due to the problems even when they are run with the right oil but just not used in perfect conditions for the DPF such as lot of low speed town use.
If anybody thinks that using a high saps oil will be ok in a DPF equipped oil is either mad or rich enough to pay for a DPF and possibly an engine. Due to incomplete regens engines have been ruined after less than a a few thousand miles.
But you feel free to knock yourself out.
And since 2005/6 with the introduction of vehicles that regenerate either passively during long high speed runs or actively by chucking in extra diesel to be burnt in the DPF and some adjustments to the engine timing, they tend to misfire a little when doing an active Regen. Exhaust gases get really hot and often the exhaust sounds a bit "boomy".
There is huge industry involved I providing DPF delete due to the problems even when they are run with the right oil but just not used in perfect conditions for the DPF such as lot of low speed town use.
If anybody thinks that using a high saps oil will be ok in a DPF equipped oil is either mad or rich enough to pay for a DPF and possibly an engine. Due to incomplete regens engines have been ruined after less than a a few thousand miles.
But you feel free to knock yourself out.
OK POablo, you never said interval, I was implying that from the "Amsoil will want to know"...
So what IS acceptable for Amsoil's unconditional warranty ?
You are implying that only following the OEM's recommendation (glaringly obviously - approved oil, factory intervals - it's implicit in the statement), or Amsoil's "recommendation" prior to the failure for Amsoil's unconditional warranty to apply.
What's wrong with what I said ?
So what IS acceptable for Amsoil's unconditional warranty ?
You are implying that only following the OEM's recommendation (glaringly obviously - approved oil, factory intervals - it's implicit in the statement), or Amsoil's "recommendation" prior to the failure for Amsoil's unconditional warranty to apply.
What's wrong with what I said ?
edyvw
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Originally Posted By: Pablo
VW America is irony defined. Their oil call outs and dealer communication and follow through with customers are weak, at best. I actually want to like VW. I had a New 1985 Sirocco. Nice car, weak engine stock (leaked oil NEW). I would love to own a VW diesel - the whole DPF thing is not confidence building.
I do not see DPF being issue in the EU. I drive their diesels in Europe more then 10 years and never had issues. Used their approved oil (Shell, OMV, Repsol or Castrol). Never ANY issues!
Actually thinking now to buy new Passat TDI with stick shift.
VW America is irony defined. Their oil call outs and dealer communication and follow through with customers are weak, at best. I actually want to like VW. I had a New 1985 Sirocco. Nice car, weak engine stock (leaked oil NEW). I would love to own a VW diesel - the whole DPF thing is not confidence building.
I do not see DPF being issue in the EU. I drive their diesels in Europe more then 10 years and never had issues. Used their approved oil (Shell, OMV, Repsol or Castrol). Never ANY issues!
Actually thinking now to buy new Passat TDI with stick shift.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So what IS acceptable for Amsoil's unconditional warranty ?
Well, I will say that Amsoil's warranty is much shorter and much more convenient to post and access than VW's:
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf
Kudos there to Amsoil.
I will also add that I think Amsoil makes an excellent product, and they appear to have every confidence in it performing well where specified.
I have no concerns whatsoever in running Amsoil in our Volvo S60R or MB R129.
That all being said, the limitations and exclusions of the Amsoil Limited Warranty speak for themselves.
So what IS acceptable for Amsoil's unconditional warranty ?
Well, I will say that Amsoil's warranty is much shorter and much more convenient to post and access than VW's:
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf
Kudos there to Amsoil.
I will also add that I think Amsoil makes an excellent product, and they appear to have every confidence in it performing well where specified.
I have no concerns whatsoever in running Amsoil in our Volvo S60R or MB R129.
That all being said, the limitations and exclusions of the Amsoil Limited Warranty speak for themselves.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
OK POablo, you never said interval, I was implying that from the "Amsoil will want to know"...
So what IS acceptable for Amsoil's unconditional warranty ?
You are implying that only following the OEM's recommendation (glaringly obviously - approved oil, factory intervals - it's implicit in the statement), or Amsoil's "recommendation" prior to the failure for Amsoil's unconditional warranty to apply.
What's wrong with what I said ?
Right off the bat I never wrote "unconditional warranty" where did that come from?
OK POablo, you never said interval, I was implying that from the "Amsoil will want to know"...
So what IS acceptable for Amsoil's unconditional warranty ?
You are implying that only following the OEM's recommendation (glaringly obviously - approved oil, factory intervals - it's implicit in the statement), or Amsoil's "recommendation" prior to the failure for Amsoil's unconditional warranty to apply.
What's wrong with what I said ?
Right off the bat I never wrote "unconditional warranty" where did that come from?
Originally Posted By: FowVay
This issue seems to be a lot of worry over nothing. The durability of the DPF on these cars isn't really a issue. Of much more concern is the high pressure fuel pump which actually has a history of self destruction.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I do not see DPF being issue in the EU. I drive their diesels in Europe more then 10 years and never had issues.
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Well DPF equipped diesels have been the norm in the UK for many years, since 2001 in some French cars, using Eloys.
There is huge industry involved I providing DPF delete due to the problems even when they are run with the right oil but just not used in perfect conditions for the DPF such as lot of low speed town use.
All I know is when I was unsuccessfully searching for VW warranty and DPF, there were tons of people having problems and indeed lots of material about DPF removal. Remember this is a is USA based search, so what's the issue? People just using the wrong (high SAPS) oil? Dealers using the wrong oil? Or the system having issues? I mean I'll take your word that the system is robust, so that leaves the oil, right?
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Mmm, seems the warranty is probably worthless unless you have owned the car from new then. As you can never guarantee what oil was put in a vehicle as a main dealer might have put the wrong stuff in.
Amsoil lubricants cover lubricated parts if you use the correct product. No oil company will cover DPF's, catalysts, etc if you use the wrong lubricant. Does not make their warranty useless.
This issue seems to be a lot of worry over nothing. The durability of the DPF on these cars isn't really a issue. Of much more concern is the high pressure fuel pump which actually has a history of self destruction.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I do not see DPF being issue in the EU. I drive their diesels in Europe more then 10 years and never had issues.
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Well DPF equipped diesels have been the norm in the UK for many years, since 2001 in some French cars, using Eloys.
There is huge industry involved I providing DPF delete due to the problems even when they are run with the right oil but just not used in perfect conditions for the DPF such as lot of low speed town use.
All I know is when I was unsuccessfully searching for VW warranty and DPF, there were tons of people having problems and indeed lots of material about DPF removal. Remember this is a is USA based search, so what's the issue? People just using the wrong (high SAPS) oil? Dealers using the wrong oil? Or the system having issues? I mean I'll take your word that the system is robust, so that leaves the oil, right?
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Mmm, seems the warranty is probably worthless unless you have owned the car from new then. As you can never guarantee what oil was put in a vehicle as a main dealer might have put the wrong stuff in.
Amsoil lubricants cover lubricated parts if you use the correct product. No oil company will cover DPF's, catalysts, etc if you use the wrong lubricant. Does not make their warranty useless.
Pablo...I'll say that from ownership, reading, experiences, etc, that there are several factors here. The DPF is not rock solid. Issues are out there. As with a lot of VW dealers, I can assure you that the wrong oils are being used. Heck, my dealer would have used the wrong oil in my 09 had I not questioned them.
In addition, biodiesel can wreak havoc on the DPF as well, in doses as low as B11. So, many factors at play here.
I'm on your side here. Amsoil Euro 5w30 will work FINE in this car. In fact, I'd wager it would do better than many "507" oils out there. Plus, it would most likely be easier to deal with Amsoil than with VW if there is a lubrication related issue...lol
In addition, biodiesel can wreak havoc on the DPF as well, in doses as low as B11. So, many factors at play here.
I'm on your side here. Amsoil Euro 5w30 will work FINE in this car. In fact, I'd wager it would do better than many "507" oils out there. Plus, it would most likely be easier to deal with Amsoil than with VW if there is a lubrication related issue...lol
Got me wrong there Pablo. Unlike edy I am no fan of the DPF I think they are just another way for engineers to make spurious emissions targets driven by the EU.
The new hot potato being particulate.
I wouldn't buy a recent Passat unless it was manual and Common Rail as the Passat from 2006/7 on is one on the most unreliable vehicles that VAG have produced in a while.
VAG have a habit of building bad products these days and then wriggling on claims. Loads of the little petrol engines fitted to VW and Skoda models have been having top end trouble and VAG have been less than active in fixing things though I had similar wih Seat in 2000 when they refused to swap a gearbox making strange noises at peak torque. Good PR is as much a part of the VAG experience in the UK, press still big them up and sales are good so why fix any issues? Who would believe a VAG product would let you down?
Probably most relevant is the fact that dpf's are only becoming common now, my Volvo for example is a Euro 4 model and has no DPF as they are only needed for the upcoming Euro 5, vehicles have been making Euro 4 without a DPF for years, my tdci Mondeo was a 2005 and also Euro 4.
The DPF problem is dealt wih by removal the EU knows this and this is why they are trying to make a vehicle remain with this millstone during its life by making it compulsory for annual emission tests, even though a car without it will still pass the emissions test in the UK without it.
Perhaps consideration should be given towards stopping 3rd world countries from polluting as much rather than costing EU and soon US motorists a fortune in DPF maintenance.
My point may have been missed when you read my last post but dpf's will and do fail on a regular basis even with the right oil, my previous emoter had this issue with the DPF equipped Vauxhall Zafira, they were DPF equipped from late 2005, the only way to make them reliable was remove he DPF but they were unable due to being a public body.
They were actually made to recently retro fit all the 2.7's with DPF's all for EU compliance even though a vehicle with same emissions and a smaller payload of same age wouldn't need to have one.
Here is an good example of EU madness.
A Euro 3 Pathfinder will do around 28/30mpg.
A Euro 4 one with DPF will give around 21/22mpg.
So which one pollutes more?
Same with the Zafira in my experience they do 16/7mpg round town, have driven loads of them between 2006/10, and the only way to get go mpg is to get rid of the DPF.
Newer systems may be getting better as all new tech does, but to put in high saps oil is madness and a bad, bad idea, as said a DPF that doesn't Regen completely will tend to dump fuel in the oil in huge quantities and ruin the engine quickly, not an issue with Eloys systems, but a big problem for the majority which run passive systems.
High saps oil will cause the EGR to soot up from what I have read and what I would expect, a messed up EGR system will ruin. DPF quickly aswell.
Note I have seen nearly new DPF equipped diesels go bang due to lubrication issues when a few months old. This was long after the wrong lube was used at my previous job. They are still going bang regularly but not as bad due to much shorter OCI on low saps oil.
The new hot potato being particulate.
I wouldn't buy a recent Passat unless it was manual and Common Rail as the Passat from 2006/7 on is one on the most unreliable vehicles that VAG have produced in a while.
VAG have a habit of building bad products these days and then wriggling on claims. Loads of the little petrol engines fitted to VW and Skoda models have been having top end trouble and VAG have been less than active in fixing things though I had similar wih Seat in 2000 when they refused to swap a gearbox making strange noises at peak torque. Good PR is as much a part of the VAG experience in the UK, press still big them up and sales are good so why fix any issues? Who would believe a VAG product would let you down?
Probably most relevant is the fact that dpf's are only becoming common now, my Volvo for example is a Euro 4 model and has no DPF as they are only needed for the upcoming Euro 5, vehicles have been making Euro 4 without a DPF for years, my tdci Mondeo was a 2005 and also Euro 4.
The DPF problem is dealt wih by removal the EU knows this and this is why they are trying to make a vehicle remain with this millstone during its life by making it compulsory for annual emission tests, even though a car without it will still pass the emissions test in the UK without it.
Perhaps consideration should be given towards stopping 3rd world countries from polluting as much rather than costing EU and soon US motorists a fortune in DPF maintenance.
My point may have been missed when you read my last post but dpf's will and do fail on a regular basis even with the right oil, my previous emoter had this issue with the DPF equipped Vauxhall Zafira, they were DPF equipped from late 2005, the only way to make them reliable was remove he DPF but they were unable due to being a public body.
They were actually made to recently retro fit all the 2.7's with DPF's all for EU compliance even though a vehicle with same emissions and a smaller payload of same age wouldn't need to have one.
Here is an good example of EU madness.
A Euro 3 Pathfinder will do around 28/30mpg.
A Euro 4 one with DPF will give around 21/22mpg.
So which one pollutes more?
Same with the Zafira in my experience they do 16/7mpg round town, have driven loads of them between 2006/10, and the only way to get go mpg is to get rid of the DPF.
Newer systems may be getting better as all new tech does, but to put in high saps oil is madness and a bad, bad idea, as said a DPF that doesn't Regen completely will tend to dump fuel in the oil in huge quantities and ruin the engine quickly, not an issue with Eloys systems, but a big problem for the majority which run passive systems.
High saps oil will cause the EGR to soot up from what I have read and what I would expect, a messed up EGR system will ruin. DPF quickly aswell.
Note I have seen nearly new DPF equipped diesels go bang due to lubrication issues when a few months old. This was long after the wrong lube was used at my previous job. They are still going bang regularly but not as bad due to much shorter OCI on low saps oil.
Years ago I read Volvo had a problem in the UK with DPF because engine speeds were too low. Apparently the British weren't given enough opportunity drive their cars at hwy speeds for sufficient time to allow complete Regen.
Pretty much a case of passing the buck. A trend started by Vauxhall/Saab/Fiat when they brought out the 1.9 cdti engine that regenerates the DPF without using an additive.
My old NHS Trust employer were the biggest buyer of Zafiras at the time 2005/6/7/8 and had huge problems caused by incomplete regen of the DPF.
The UK is now full of companies that can remove the DPF and remap the ecu to stop it trying to Regen.
They kept trying to blame owners when the product was rushed to market to satisfy the ecomentalists in the EU.
How can modifying vehicle to make them less economical make pollution better!
Politicians and beurocrats should never be allowed to fiddle with anything technical or complicated as they have no comprehension of real life.
An example was the blanket chasing of rigid performance criteria in the Ambulance e service which has led to lives being lost every day in London, and in every other part of the UK.
But now the UK government need the tax revenue from fuel to run the country so what do you do?
I had a Renault 19 RTdt with a 1.9 turbo infercooled engine, did an easy 45 mpg, now my Volvo does 45mpg, if it had a DPF it would need Eloys fluid every 70k or so at
Significant cost but would still give 45 mpg with constant DPF cleaning due to the additive, if my Volvo regenerates the new non additive way by injecting extra fuel and altering the timing it would probably give around 40mpg.
Progress? Not really.
People remap cdti Vauxhall and Saab cars, remove the DPF blank the EGR and get massive increases in drivability, power and fuel economy.
Going from 35-40mpg to 50-60mpg has been mentioned but until I own and run such a vehicle I can't confirm.
My old NHS Trust employer were the biggest buyer of Zafiras at the time 2005/6/7/8 and had huge problems caused by incomplete regen of the DPF.
The UK is now full of companies that can remove the DPF and remap the ecu to stop it trying to Regen.
They kept trying to blame owners when the product was rushed to market to satisfy the ecomentalists in the EU.
How can modifying vehicle to make them less economical make pollution better!
Politicians and beurocrats should never be allowed to fiddle with anything technical or complicated as they have no comprehension of real life.
An example was the blanket chasing of rigid performance criteria in the Ambulance e service which has led to lives being lost every day in London, and in every other part of the UK.
But now the UK government need the tax revenue from fuel to run the country so what do you do?
I had a Renault 19 RTdt with a 1.9 turbo infercooled engine, did an easy 45 mpg, now my Volvo does 45mpg, if it had a DPF it would need Eloys fluid every 70k or so at
Significant cost but would still give 45 mpg with constant DPF cleaning due to the additive, if my Volvo regenerates the new non additive way by injecting extra fuel and altering the timing it would probably give around 40mpg.
Progress? Not really.
People remap cdti Vauxhall and Saab cars, remove the DPF blank the EGR and get massive increases in drivability, power and fuel economy.
Going from 35-40mpg to 50-60mpg has been mentioned but until I own and run such a vehicle I can't confirm.
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Got me wrong there Pablo.
Yes and no. I included your quote because you did mention "the DPF disconnection business" (my words).
I am in a conversation with Amsoil on this topic. I'll post more information as soon as I can.
Got me wrong there Pablo.
Yes and no. I included your quote because you did mention "the DPF disconnection business" (my words).
I am in a conversation with Amsoil on this topic. I'll post more information as soon as I can.
So, there doesn't seem to be a way of verifying what the advertised "Low SAPS" means. Forum dealers swear its .6, email to Amsoil provided nothing, searches reveal nothing concrete, and when I called Amsoil tech dept, the rep bluntly refused to give me anything, just very dismissively stated that its within 507 specs, but the actual numbers aren't published. If I'm comparing oils, and others list their specs freely, but Amsoil won't in this case, then I have to question why the [censored] not? I'm sure that its a great oil, and maybe the difference in ash is insignificant, but DPF's are $$$. I'm switching.
A good idea, I run ACEA C3 oil in my DPF equipped Pathfinder. I think that as dpf's in passenger vehicles started to be used in large quantities in Europe then make sure it has appropriate ACEA specs,
C1- equiv to A5/B5, limited SAPS, low HTHS > 2.9 mPas
C2- Same as C1 but higher SAPS content.
C3- Same as C2 except for HTHS >3.5 and without Fuel Economy Performance.
C4- Same SAPS as C3, HTHS as C1.
I have checked a few oils recently and have found that a lot of Mobil C3 oils are SAPS 0.8, C2 oils are between 0.6 and 0.7.
C1- equiv to A5/B5, limited SAPS, low HTHS > 2.9 mPas
C2- Same as C1 but higher SAPS content.
C3- Same as C2 except for HTHS >3.5 and without Fuel Economy Performance.
C4- Same SAPS as C3, HTHS as C1.
I have checked a few oils recently and have found that a lot of Mobil C3 oils are SAPS 0.8, C2 oils are between 0.6 and 0.7.
Originally Posted By: Jdragnfly
So, there doesn't seem to be a way of verifying what the advertised "Low SAPS" means. Forum dealers swear its .6, email to Amsoil provided nothing, searches reveal nothing concrete, and when I called Amsoil tech dept, the rep bluntly refused to give me anything, just very dismissively stated that its within 507 specs, but the actual numbers aren't published. If I'm comparing oils, and others list their specs freely, but Amsoil won't in this case, then I have to question why the [censored] not? I'm sure that its a great oil, and maybe the difference in ash is insignificant, but DPF's are $$$. I'm switching.
Both Ted (Too Slick) and I were told it was 0.6%, which is fully compliant with the VW 504/507 spec. A VOA also shows very low levels of calcium and ZDDP, hence the TBN of 5.8.
I said .8% above because that would be the "worry" level, IMHO.
So, there doesn't seem to be a way of verifying what the advertised "Low SAPS" means. Forum dealers swear its .6, email to Amsoil provided nothing, searches reveal nothing concrete, and when I called Amsoil tech dept, the rep bluntly refused to give me anything, just very dismissively stated that its within 507 specs, but the actual numbers aren't published. If I'm comparing oils, and others list their specs freely, but Amsoil won't in this case, then I have to question why the [censored] not? I'm sure that its a great oil, and maybe the difference in ash is insignificant, but DPF's are $$$. I'm switching.
Both Ted (Too Slick) and I were told it was 0.6%, which is fully compliant with the VW 504/507 spec. A VOA also shows very low levels of calcium and ZDDP, hence the TBN of 5.8.
I said .8% above because that would be the "worry" level, IMHO.
Man, sorry, you must have got one bummer Tech support guy. Amsoil will readily tell you AEL is 0.6%. It's not some big secret. I know how you feel and I have fed this info back to Amsoil.
Hasn't this all come about because the thread starter miss quoted the amount of saps in the Amsoil oil?
VW 504.00 507.00 oils are not 1.5 % saps they are no more than 0.8% so the Amsoil cannot be 1.5%.
Amsoil, like most other oil companies, will buy an additive package from Lubrizol or other additive companies that meets the spec quoted so I wouldn't panic about using it, you could always do a UOA to make sure it's behaving itself.
Riggaz
VW 504.00 507.00 oils are not 1.5 % saps they are no more than 0.8% so the Amsoil cannot be 1.5%.
Amsoil, like most other oil companies, will buy an additive package from Lubrizol or other additive companies that meets the spec quoted so I wouldn't panic about using it, you could always do a UOA to make sure it's behaving itself.
Riggaz
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